Horse Sales Practices - Am I Being Unreasonable?

[mvp]

@Tini_Sea_Soldier1

Unfortunately this happens A LOT.
The honest pros make sure that money goes directly from the buyer to seller… when it ends up going through a 3rd party, I always assume someone is padding the bill or that there’s more than one agent getting a cut. Particularly if the trainer is working hard to keep each party separated.

My last few sales experiences were fantastic. Everyone was very upfront with all the of details and it was all documented in writing. I got to review sale contracts prior to signing, suggest any additional language or clauses, review insurance details, and commissions were agreed upon prior to signing off on sales. Former owner and I for horse that I bought are still in contact very often. Horse I sold is doing well and we get updates here and there on his progress, along with following him on social media.

I would not be on either side of a deal that didn’t have the Bill of Sale and payment be directly between buyer and seller.

If the trainer wanted to buy the horse and then sell it to the parents 10 minutes later for double the money, I suppose that’s their business. But to use the parents’ money as a deposit and then resell the horse to them at an inflated price? That is sleazy. It also doesn’t quite look like the trainer was “adding any value” to the horse to justify the increase in price. All of that reeks of ripping off their own client. No one should want any part of that.

[mvp]

@LadyLawyer

All: I have also expressed the same concerns to my friend and despite significant push back to the trainer, the true sale price was disclosed to the buyer by my friend. I appreciate all your insights. Horse sales can be messy, but our goal is to always be transparent and I believe we were able to protect not only my friend and her interests but also the buyer from a shady trainer!

What does “pushback to the trainer” mean? To the seller’s trainer? Or you mean the buyer’s trainer didn’t want that? I mean, that’s not surprise, right?

[Bristol_Bay]

I deleted the anecdote I shared about a pony sale. Suffice it to say that the lack of transparency in the buying and reselling of horseflesh to non-horse-savvy parents is not good for the sport and definitely not good for the child caught in the middle.

[NaturallyHappy]

This doesn’t bother me nearly like the OP’s situation. The trainer bought the pony outright, and does have the right to establish what the value of the pony might be.

[Tha_Ridge]

ETA that this comment is in regard to a post @Bristol_Bay shared and has since deleted:

Same, who cares. I buy horses for low prices and sell them for more all the time, often in quick succession. Absolutely nothing unethical about that—they are honestly and fairly represented and all parties know exactly what they’re paying for.

[NaturallyHappy]

And, actually, I would expect to pay more. The trainer took the risk to buy the pony and fed and cared for said pony. And perhaps rode said pony…people deserve to make money for their time and talent.

[Willesdon]

@NaturallyHappy

And, actually, I would expect to pay more. The trainer took the risk to buy the pony and fed and cared for said pony. And perhaps rode said pony…people deserve to make money for their time and talent.

No one says the trainer shouldn’t make some commission on the sale: their expertise informs the choice of horse, their time has been used. But a trainer deliberately keeping buyer and seller apart, agreeing one price to one side and a higher one on the other side, at the same time, so as too pocket the difference is fraudulent.

[NaturallyHappy]

Agreed. I said so earlier. My understanding was that this trainer bought the pony outright and sold it for more than the trainer’s initial purchase price.

[Willesdon]

@NaturallyHappy

Agreed. I said so earlier. My understanding was that this trainer bought the pony outright and sold it for more than the trainer’s initial purchase price.

Parents paid the deposit, not the trainer.

[NaturallyHappy]

OH!!! We are referencing two different things. I agree 100% w you about that. Bristol Bay deleted an earlier post that referenced a trainer that bought a pony, and then resold it for more money. I bet you didn’t see it before it was deleted. I absolutely agree w you about the original post.

[Ponyplusaninch]

I just wanted to come here and say thanks for having some scruples to check up on this. Like, unfortunately I do know and have come across folks in legal who do not do this level of due diligence. Why, I don’t know. Maybe there’s something extra in it for them, maybe they don’t care. Maybe they don’t know better. Heck my own dad (also a lawyer; also spent a lot of time contracts in his hay-day) almost got swindled because of all the smoke and mirrors that people confidently portrayed as “normal” for equine sales and leases.

It’s just refreshing to have someone call this out and have the right thing happen for once, whew. I hope more of this happens in the future.

[Willesdon]

A lot of normal life becomes distorted when the word “horse” enters a conversation. Without too much thinking, no contracts for anything, unpaid work, abusive sexual exploitation, animal abuse … Etc Etc

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

All this. Plus people (including myself at times) tolerate things you’d never in any other life context (being screamed at and insulted by an instructor, lateness, opaque financial agreements). It’s only over time you start to get wise, and many parents are even more accommodating because they don’t want to disappoint their child (or look “poor” and penny-pinching to other barn parents).

[Poll_Alias]

This happens ALL. THE. TIME. I, as a professional and a seller, used an agent to sell a pony. I “thought” I was dealing with someone that had a good reputation and was well known. We had an agreement on fees & commission. Imagine my surprise when I requested the money be sent directly to me (wasn’t) and when I got a Bill of Sale from the Buyer for DOUBLE what I was paid.

Speak up - it is the only way this industry gets cleaned up.

[vxf111]

Considering that lawyers have fiduciary duties to their client, I find it puzzling that a lawyer would not immediately issue spot an agent self dealing as a breach of fiduciary duty. I think it’s more likely that they didn’t care rather than that they didn’t identify a problem in this sort of fact pattern. This is literally a bar exam hypo if you tweak the facts slightly to a lawyer tasked with finding property for a client and misrepresenting the price to skim off the top….

[Ponyplusaninch]

Gah honestly that makes me more depressed to hear the likely answer is that some simply don’t care.

Was trying to give some benefit of the doubt, but based on what you just said—there isn’t much of any.

[kenyarider]

As a retired lawyer, I can’t believe the OP was seeking advice here.

[Baybear]

What’s left out here is - did the OP’s friend have a sales agreement/contract written up before the horse went out on trial? Hopefully yes. That agreement or contract would disclose the sale price and the buyers. I’m always taken aback by buyers who don’t seem to care to be involved in asking the price of the horse. While I respect my trainer immensely, I would never let them leave me out of any discussions regarding the sale price of the horse, and in her case she usually negotiates the price down. Whoever signs the agreement is who the seller should be receiving the money from as well as who would be responsible for the horse while it is out on trial.

[Janet]

@Baybear

did the OP’s friend have a sales agreement/contract written up before the horse went out on trial?

I think the OP was asking in the context of drawing up such a contract. I do not think the horse has gone out on trial YET.

[Baybear]

Hopefully not, but the OP did mention that the funds for the deposit of the horse/pony was sent by the parents. I’d like to know how it works that a trainer “is buying” the horse/pony but the funds come from the client? I bet the trainer CPA loves them LOL