Horse sellers, what do you allow in a PPE?

[Xanthoria]

Many horse buyers are keen to avoid inherited issues that can shorten a horse’s life or curtail its athletic ability. What do you allow your buyer to do for a PPE?

1. How much time do you allow for this? A week from the first ride? 2 weeks? If the buyer needs to get a blood test done for Lyme exposure, PSSM, drugs etc, will you wait until the results come back? Or sell to the next person who comes along with cash, bypassing whoever is awaiting test results?

2. Are there diseases you haven’t considered might need to be tested for, or won’t consider? Someone selling a Qh will be aware of the need for HYPP and 5 panel testing. Someone selling a TB or WB might not be aware PSSM might be asked for.

3. What vet? Will you allow any vet of buyer’s choosing to do the exam? Do you require a specific vet? Will you haul to a vet clinic for neck rads or anything else? What do you do if the vet they choose is someone you cannot stand?

4. Who gets to buy the horse: the first person to show up with a check? The first person to try the horse who then wants another ride, a PPE, and labwork? Do you stop showing a horse when someone is ready to PPE? Do you require a deposit to hold? Refundable?

5. What types of reports do you have on hand in advance to show a prospective buyer? Recent rads? Test results? Vet records?

Doubtless much of this is affected by the horse’s price, but as more people want horses tested for genetic issues, horse sellers will be mulling the consequences, since those tests take time.

[MissAriel]

My PPE experience is only as a buyer. Horse 1 I made an offer pending PPE which was done the same day (stars aligned, at least for this part), but the horse failed the PPE lameness check. Horse 2 I was allowed to ride, but told was being vetted the next day by another party who had priority - of course, she passed and was sold to first buyer. Horse 3 made offer after ride, contingent on PPE the following day, because of location, I used the seller’s recommended vet, but this was not her primary vet. Horse again failed PPE check. Horse 4, again at a distance, made offer contingent on PPE, used seller’s vet, but I was the customer and got all the reports. Seller offered to trailer horse to vet’s for rads and didn’t charge for that. It was only a couple of days total, but he passed and I bought him.

IMHO the seller should stop showing once buyer makes an offer contingent on results of a PPE, although there was no deposits in my cases, and in one case I was allowed to test ride, but it was made very clear I was second in line.

In each case the PPE’s were conducted within a few days of my offer.

I had no issues with the vet choices, and didn’t request any blood or other genetic testing which could have delayed things.

If you have recent rads, that can be helpful to show a buyer, and if you have rads showing an issue, you may be required to disclose the issue.

I think for something fairly prevalent like HYPP it could be worthwhile to get the testing done (maybe 5 panel too), unless you can show via pedigree that the horse is HYPP neg. If I was buying a grade QH type, I wouldn’t even consider an offer without testing, but some buyers would.

For other less prevalent things like PSSM or WFFS with variable or even unknown impact, I think that is just part of rolling the dice in considering horse ownership and wouldn’t bother to test. For breeding stock, I would be more particular.

[findeight]

It depends, as usual. Generally it’s reasonable and customary for the buyer to pick the vet and they can look at anything they want and will pay for but if they want it done at a clinic, they pay for all costs getting it there and back. Usually you are looking at a week or so, max. Not fair to ask seller to stop marketing the horse for longer.

OPs list of tests and imaging runs up a sizable bill. That in itself limits many buyers options.

Some sellers offer complete vet records and recent imaging. Buyer can accept those or persue their own from their choice of vet. This is very much dependent on the sellers reputation and past history of horses they have sold as well as known history of the horse in question. Sometimes you can trust them, other times it’s best not to. Depends…

[bip]

I’m glad you asked the question, because it was in the back of my mind when I asked the question about neck/back x-rays. Its not as involved as some of the things you are specifically asking about, but since it’s not exactly standard practice either, I could imagine a seller putting a foot down. So it got me thinking about what is reasonable.

[PrincessPonies]

I’ve only ever been the buy. My trainer brought in a horse for trial, she had four people looking at the time. I was the person who she first brought the horse in for and then rode the horse first. One of the others did ride the horse but the trainer made it clear I had first choice. I did schedule a PPE the day after I rode her, fell in love, but our vet couldn’t come out for a week. Since horse was one a two week trial this was fine.
We didn’t do any blood work or anything that would require the horse going off site.
Someone had tried the horse before me and vetted. Vet had said something about her hooves being too big. Old owner allowed the other person to bring out a different farrier who ended up making horse lame, and the woman decided against buying her.
I think it really depends on the buys and how much the horse is worth as to what’s done in the PPE.

[Xanthoria]

@MissAriel

For other less prevalent things like PSSM or WFFS with variable or even unknown impact, I think that is just part of rolling the dice in considering horse ownership and wouldn’t bother to test. For breeding stock, I would be more particular.

The prevalence of all of these disorders is much higher than originally thought, thanks to new testing methods and awareness.

Dr Valberg’s 2005-7 studies showed Paint and Appaloosas show 6-8% prevalence of PSSM1, over 10% of QHs are affected. Over 60% of Percherons and 90% of Belgian Draft horses are affected. Many other breeds are affected to varying degrees.

PSSM 2 affects Dutch Warmblood, Swedish Warmblood, Hanoverian, Friesian, Selle Francais, Westfalian, Canadian Warmblood, Irish Sport Horse, Icelandics, Morgans, Standardbreds, and Thoroughbreds. I can’t find stats on prevalence.

The QH world is currently facing testing for this as buyers are starting to be more aware of the risks and damage caused: I’d expect other breeds to follow suit, especially as WBs are relatively expensive, and there are a great many carriers being bred.

Horses with PSSM show lameness, tying up, work intolerance and a slew of other symptoms that are impossible to cure and can be difficult to manage, if at all.

[Nezzy]

Their vet, their cost, but if i get an acceptable offer in the meantime, the horse goes to the first bidder.

[Xanthoria]

So @Nezzy if a person pays for a PPE and is waiting for test results back, you’d sell to someone else?

[BeeHoney]

@Xanthoria

Many horse buyers are keen to avoid inherited issues that can shorten a horse’s life or curtail its athletic ability. What do you allow your buyer to do for a PPE?

1. How much time do you allow for this? A week from the first ride? 2 weeks? If the buyer needs to get a blood test done for Lyme exposure, PSSM, drugs etc, will you wait until the results come back? Or sell to the next person who comes along with cash, bypassing whoever is awaiting test results?

I think a week to 10 days after a purchase contract is signed, and this time frame should be dictated in the purchase contract. If additional workup is necessary–for example primary veterinarian suggests consult by a specialist or a special study that will take time to acquire, then the seller can decide whether or not to extend the time period if it seems reasonable.

2. Are there diseases you haven’t considered might need to be tested for, or won’t consider? Someone selling a Qh will be aware of the need for HYPP and 5 panel testing. Someone selling a TB or WB might not be aware PSSM might be asked for.

Again, thats up to the buyer to figure out what they want to test for and figure out how long they will need to get the results and to negotiate for an adequate period of time allotted for vetting. Personally, if someone wanted to do a genetic test that was going to take weeks to get results on, I would likely move on to a different buyer. If I felt the test was particularly relevant and other buyers were asking, then I would order it myself.

3. What vet? Will you allow any vet of buyer’s choosing to do the exam? Do you require a specific vet? Will you haul to a vet clinic for neck rads or anything else? What do you do if the vet they choose is someone you cannot stand?

Vet is of buyer’s choice. Requiring a specific vet is shady. Requiring a vet that you have a relationship with creates conflicts of interest and casts a shadow on any results. I think it is okay for a seller to potentially disallow a particular vet (for example, a local vet with a bad reputation).

4. Who gets to buy the horse: the first person to show up with a check? The first person to try the horse who then wants another ride, a PPE, and labwork? Do you stop showing a horse when someone is ready to PPE? Do you require a deposit to hold? Refundable?

It’s your choice. You are not obligated to sell the horse to anyone. Personally, I sell to the first suitable buyer who hands me a deposit. If someone seemed to have unrealistic expectations about how the horse might vet, I might be less enthusiastic about selling to that person. Once I have accepted the deposit, I either stop showing the horse to other buyers, or I show it to other buyers with the clear understanding that there is an interested party who is in line ahead of them with right of first refusal. The deposit is refundable if the horse “fails” the vetting. However, to get a refund, the buyer must share with me the official report from the vet documenting what the problem was. If the buyer has not completed the transaction (including paying me the remainder owed and taking possession of the horse) within the specified time from giving me the deposit, I keep the deposit and put the horse back on the market.

5. What types of reports do you have on hand in advance to show a prospective buyer? Recent rads? Test results? Vet records?

Totally depends on the horse. If the horse has any significant medical history or recent radiographs, I would expect to disclose those.

Doubtless much of this is affected by the horse’s price, but as more people want horses tested for genetic issues, horse sellers will be mulling the consequences, since those tests take time.

[BeeHoney]

@Xanthoria

So @Nezzy if a person pays for a PPE and is waiting for test results back, you’d sell to someone else?

If a person pays for a PPE but fails to complete their testing in the amount of time specified in the sales contract, then the seller can sell the horse to another person. Typically a buyer should have a set period of time in which to complete their vetting.

[Nezzy]

@Xanthoria

So @Nezzy if a person pays for a PPE and is waiting for test results back, you’d sell to someone else?

IDK, it would depend on if i really loved the person ordering the PPE. Do i think they are the perfect person for the horse.
If i think they are, i would wait. If say I agree to wait for PPE results, then i would. but if nothing is on paper, and buyers seem a bit off, idk. I would probably tell person with PPE that there is an offer on the table and that as soon as the vet results are back i would want an answer. If no answer, or if they take too long, i would sell the horse.

[kiwichick]

Id be mega p!ssed off if I was waiting results of a PPE and the horse was sold to someone else, that said ive never done a PPE with blood tests and my PPEs results are instant.

[Simkie]

I’d be pretty pissed if I paid big $$$$ for an extensive PPE and the horse sold to someone else while we were waiting for test results to come back.

This should be covered in the contract, though. Buyer has -x- time to complete all pre-purchase testing and inform seller of desire to complete purchase before horse is considered returned to the open market.

If there isn’t a contract or any verbiage around this in the contract, it seems like right of first refusal should go to the PPE buyer.

[Training_Cupid]

I would not hold a horse without a deposit (non-refundable but applied to the purchase price). I may however give a courtesy call that someone else is coming out, so they have the opportunity to move forward if they wish.

Note, I’ve only dealt with cheap horses, where no contract was signed until the sale was finalized (usually immediately after the PPE.)

[Obsidian_Fire]

@bip

I’m glad you asked the question, because it was in the back of my mind when I asked the question about neck/back x-rays. Its not as involved as some of the things you are specifically asking about, but since it’s not exactly standard practice either, I could imagine a seller putting a foot down. So it got me thinking about what is reasonable.

If a seller put their foot down over my choice of films, I’d wonder what they were hiding and the deal would be off.

[Xanthoria]

@Nezzy

IDK, it would depend on if i really loved the person ordering the PPE. Do i think they are the perfect person for the horse.
If i think they are, i would wait. If say I agree to wait for PPE results, then i would. but if nothing is on paper, and buyers seem a bit off, idk. I would probably tell person with PPE that there is an offer on the table and that as soon as the vet results are back i would want an answer. If no answer, or if they take too long, i would sell the horse.

That seems fair.

[BeeHoney]

@Obsidian Fire

If a seller put their foot down over my choice of films, I’d wonder what they were hiding and the deal would be off.

So, I agree that in general a seller should not put any limitations on vetting…however, sometimes an extensive vetting turns up incidental findings that may not have any real life relevance to the health and soundness of the horse but that can affect its value. Even if the findings are not super significant, chances are the buyer may want to renegotiate the price based on the issue. And, once a buyer passes on a horse because of a “failed” vetting, future buyers are more likely to get cold feet once they learn of that.

For example I once purchased–at an enormous discount–a perfectly sound horse that had several incidental findings on a highly extensive vetting done by a previous interested party. Once a well known vet had labelled the gelding as having those incidental findings, the seller felt obligated to disclose those findings to future interested parties, and thusly found the horse extremely difficult to sell. I was not in the least put off by the findings, neither was the local vet I used for my PPE, and so I happily purchased the horse who remained sound and useful for many years.

Some time after I had purchased the horse, I learned that there had been a lot of drama surrounding the initial vetting. The first purchaser had used the veterinary findings to attempt to negotiate very aggressively on price–to the point where the seller felt uncomfortable/suspicious and had her own vet re-examine the horse. Her vet had a very different opinion on the findings, i.e. no big deal. At this point, the seller felt that she was being played and refused to sell these people the horse at any price, at which point the prospective buyer threatened to tell “everyone” that the seller was trying to sell a horse with a serious defect. The seller was a person for whom reputation mattered more than money and at that point felt backed into a corner and that her best option was to sell the horse at a very reduced price.

[Guilherme]

@Xanthoria

Many horse buyers are keen to avoid inherited issues that can shorten a horse’s life or curtail its athletic ability. What do you allow your buyer to do for a PPE?

Pretty much whatever they are willing to pay for that does not draw any more blood than for normal exam.

1. How much time do you allow for this? A week from the first ride? 2 weeks? If the buyer needs to get a blood test done for Lyme exposure, PSSM, drugs etc, will you wait until the results come back? Or sell to the next person who comes along with cash, bypassing whoever is awaiting test results?

Multiple issues, here. IMO best practice is to allow a PPE of the buyer’s choice as soon as a contract is signed. The contract should specify an period of time (usually a few days) to get the PPE done and any other terms and conditions (transport to the vet, time limits on testing, who gets the results, etc.). If an exam in done and results are pending then the horse is “under contract.” If a buyer wanted to make a “backup offer” I’d do that.

2. Are there diseases you haven’t considered might need to be tested for, or won’t consider? Someone selling a Qh will be aware of the need for HYPP and 5 panel testing. Someone selling a TB or WB might not be aware PSSM might be asked for.

The buyer gets to pick what is tested for. It’s up to them to get it done within the time limits of the contract.

3. What vet? Will you allow any vet of buyer’s choosing to do the exam? Do you require a specific vet? Will you haul to a vet clinic for neck rads or anything else? What do you do if the vet they choose is someone you cannot stand?

In Order:

Buyer’s choice.

Yes.*

No.

Yes, but payment of time and transport will be required up front.

It depends.

4. Who gets to buy the horse: the first person to show up with a check? The first person to try the horse who then wants another ride, a PPE, and labwork? Do you stop showing a horse when someone is ready to PPE? Do you require a deposit to hold? Refundable?

Again, in order:

It depends.

Don’t understand this question.

It depends.

It depends, times 2.

5. What types of reports do you have on hand in advance to show a prospective buyer? Recent rads? Test results? Vet records?

If I have a buyer I consider serious I’ll share records I have with them. I’ll authorize my vet to release records to them. If there is a charge they have to pay. My current vet will do this for a flat $20 charge for paper records, if I understand her protocol correctly. Copies of x-rays and the like will cost more.

Doubtless much of this is affected by the horse’s price, but as more people want horses tested for genetic issues, horse sellers will be mulling the consequences, since those tests take time.

This is all part of an sales contract. It’s an important part, but only a part. As a rule a seller is wise to require a deposit on any sale and that is refundable if, but only if, the sales contract permits it. Horses don’t “pass” or “fail” a PPE like humans pass or fail an exam in school. It tells the buyer something about the horse’s physical condition but that’s about it.

Regarding DNA testing I’d say “no.” In my breed horses are DNA tested to verify parentage at the time of registration.

In all of this a seller has to analyze their buyer. If they are serious then the seller should be willing to work with them. If they are “tire kickers” or show other signs of not being serious then the seller should likely be pretty strict just to avoid the loss time and money that un-serious buyers can cause.

G.

*I’m aware of some “jack leg” vets in my area. If one of these name showed up I’l likely allow the exam but would be present

[rememberthenight]

I have been both seller and buyer.

I think you need to have a good contract. Most of
my contracts (both as seller and buyer) are the first step before a PPE are done. It shows the buyer is serious. Usually puts down a non-refundable deposit(but that is always up to buyer/seller). I have been given my deposit back if a PPE really came back unacceptable.

Once the seller has had the deposit, a reasonable time to do the vetting-(7-14 days) seems most common , then the PPEIS DONE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE andbuyer decides yes or no. Seller gets deposit if buyer backs out. But hopefully it goes smoothly.

Buyer can can pay for whatever PPE they feel is necessary for them to be comfortable. They own test results and can share with seller- or not.

As as long as it is clear in the contract, no one is surprised. And it sets the timeframe of the sale. I have always told potential buyers to come visit the horse as often as desired at my place to decide if horse is right. I don’t want anyone to have any surprises.

I wont sell a horse once a contract is signed and deposit done. If the horse is a hot commodity- I would might be willing To have others ride and be put on a wawaiting list. But i also don’t want any hard to come to the horse with an unknown rider. So it depends.

[TheJenners]

I have been both the buyer and seller of both bargain basement and five figure horses. To answer, as a seller: if a buyer wishes to proceed with a PPE, I will require a non-refundable deposit of a percentage of the purchase price, which will be applied to the purchase price, before proceeding with said PPE. Reason being is that I can’t think of anyone calling for a PPE being able to get one same-day, and another buyer may appear tomorrow. If the buyer wishes to hold for blood results, the deposit holds pending results, assuming blood results are reasonable (ie a genetic test, not to see if it’s been drugged (if they think that, then this is not a good fit)). The buyer selects the vet, but I will do any necessary transport (paid) and I will be present for vetting.

As a buyer: I find what I posted above to be reasonable, obviously. I would insist on a deposit and a hold on the horse for a PPE, and if the seller refuses, there is a good chance I’ll walk.