I would say I’d walk from a nonrefundable deposit requirement. I’ve had so many horses fail, and after spending $1500+ on a PPE, losing a deposit as well is too much.
I think this is where things are going. As I mentioned above, PSSM (and probably other issues) are becoming more visible issues, and certainly in the QH world, hot on the heels of the HYPP issue, PSSM is now something many buyers require a test for.
Problem is, right now the test for PSSM2, which is what WBs and TBs mostly get, takes 2-3 weeks.
If sellers accept a deposit to wait, great. Otherwise I think there may start being demand for test results up front, as in the QH world.
Maybe already discussed, but its too late and I’m too tired to go back and look…But I would think any horse over kill price would have all these details covered in the sale contract. Kind of like a real estate contract You like the horse (house) ok, make an offer contingent on certain inspections. If the horse(or house) fails at any point the offer is void or up for re-negotiation! Just be clear in the details of your original offer!!!
Nothing until you make an offer, and put down a deposit. That will have a specific time limit, and will be refundable only if the vet says the horse is not suitable for the desired activity. The deposit keeps the horse from being sold to anyone else. It is usually a pretty short time.
Then you can do pretty much whatever tests you want to, as long as they are non-invasive.
Some owners object to specific vets, and some object to excessive flexion tests, or muscle biopsies
I would have Coggins results on hand, and give my vet permission to disclose the vet history. Up to him how much he charges for his time.
#3- When I was selling horses with some regularity, there was one vet in particular that I would not allow on my farm for PPE. Because he had a history of “failing” every horse he examined. I personally knew of several horses, who I knew to be sound horses, who he failed on PPEs, and went on to be the sound horses I knew them to be in lengthy athletic careers afterwards. This vet cost his clients the pleasure of owning these horses, and did damage to the sellers who were offering these horses for sale. There is no repercussion for this, other than my opinion of him, and nixing him for work on my farm. So, if a potential buyer suggested his name for a PPE, I said “nope, guess again”. Because there is no point in having a sound horse get a poor prepurchase report that it does not deserve. As long as they select a vet who does not have a reputation in this way, and a vet who is not MY vet, I am OK with whatever tests they want to do. Sometimes a horse will be found to have an “issue” that I was not aware of, and the sale may be killed as a result. But often, the next buyer with another vet, doesn’t find the same thing, making one wonder if the “issue” was there in the first place. This has been “classic” IME. It irritates my hubby to no end. But I tend to shrug, and look for the next interested potential buyer and their vet’s opinion. If I don’t agree that the issue is real, there is no change in asking price.
#4- If someone has done an PPE but has not yet paid for the horse, they DO have “first refusal”. If another buyer is interested in the horse, they first buyer should be contacted, and an answer given about their completing the purchase. At that time, a time limit for this should be set. If the purchase is not completed, the horse is still for sale. The first buyer to get their vet there for the PPE gets first refusal, IMO. I have not demanded a deposit on a horse, probably should I guess. But it has never been an issue for me.
#5- I don’t have vet records on hand. I don’t do a PPE of my own in advance of offering the horse for sale. If I know of an issue that the horse has had, I point that out.
I buy and sell, but mostly sell. Every sale is unique and the terms of the sale contract are negotiated in advance. The PPE is part of the negotiation. As a general rule, I will request a refundable deposit for holding a horse for a PPE. And the PPE MUST occur to get it back. There can be none of this buyer’s remorse over the PPE. I do ask the buyer what the extent of the PPE will be – most want a basic health exam and flexions. I have had a few wanting blood work for Lymes; nothing for genetics yet but I only sell a specific breed. I am okay with the blood work as long as we can agree on a reasonable time to get the results. I am not holding a horse off the market for a long period waiting for a PPE.
There have been plenty of threads about multiple buyers. The first person with a contract on the horse is at the front of the line. I’m happy to show the horse to other buyers with the full disclosure that the horse is under contract pending a PPE. I do feel that even if I am offered full asking price, no PPE by the second buyer, I have a contract that gives the first buyer the right to decide to purchase within the scope and timeline of the contract. Now if the first buyer does not want a contract, then it’s anything goes.
When I buy, I rarely do a PPE anymore. I’m a breeder and I typically buy younger mares. However, I do not recommend my practices to others. I own a farm and have plenty of space to make an error. Most buyers cannot take that risk.
Question: is there a blood test for PSSM2? I thought it was just a muscle biopsy, and I consider that somewhat invasive, so would a seller allow this? I had a SE Arabian stallion who tested positive for “moderate” PSSM (before 1 or 2 types) and the test was done via biopsy and it did leave a scar. Now granted the vet who did it is not one I allow on my farm any longer for this and various other reasons, so I suspect that a better vet might be able to do it less invasively?? but can’t say for sure. I might hesitate at that, both as a seller and a buyer.
There’s now a hair or blood test for PSSM1 and a hair test for PSSM2. But each takes 2-3 weeks, so even if a buyer pulls hair the first day they see the horse and schedule a PPE for the next day, they’re still waiting 2-3 weeks for that test result to come in. Because if you’ve ever dealt with PSSM, you’re not doing that twice.
PSSM1: https://www.vdl.umn.edu/services-fee…ion-guidelines $65
PSSM2/variants: http://equiseq.com/learn_tests $249
I have dealt with it, like I said, and it would never deter me from buying a horse unless it was symptomatic even on an improved/approved PSSM diet. Like I said, I had a horse with moderate, multiple tying-up issues, and diet fixed it. But everyone has something they will “never” buy into again :yes:
I’m surprised at the number of nonrefundable holds mentioned. The idea of handing over a portion of my budget for a horse that could flex a 3/5 on the first joint seems really high risk.
Are these nonrefundable holds typically a certain percent of the final sale price? Are they nonrefundable with a clause? Do you ever push for your money if the PPE turns up something that a reasonable owner should have known and/or disclosed?
As a seller, I’m surprised at the number of people unwilling to pay a non-refundable deposit. As a buyer, I have always paid a non-refundable deposit (when applicable - not so much on a $500 OTTB). Selling, I will not hold a horse without a deposit, and having it be refundable completely defeats the purpose. The purpose of the deposit is good-faith towards purchasing the horse and to cover expenses incurred while horse is “off the market”; if the buyer decides to pass, I’ve lost time/marketing due to taking the horse off the market, possibly losing an actual sale.
Recently I’ve also been quite surprised at the number of people wanting to haul the horse all over God’s creation to have their home vet do the PPE, but they’ve been unwilling to pay any deposit at all to do so. What on earth makes you think you deserve take someone else’s horse out of their care/control, do whatever you want with it for a week or two, and not pay for that liability and use? Mind = blown.
To answer the OP questions:
- Once a buyer has submitted an offer and seller has excepted, PPE should be scheduled within one week. Buyer can have up to a week to consider the findings. Whether or not the horse sells in the meantime is dependent on the deposit. If buyer was unwilling to pay a deposit, horse is still on the market, and absolutely will be sold if another offer comes along.
- None come to mind.
- Buyer chooses their own vet. Standard practice is choosing a vet local to the horse (if buyer isn’t local) who is unfamiliar with the horse. If it’s someone I can’t stand, well, if there’s a conflict of interest I would require they choose a different vet. If no conflict, just a personal preference, I don’t require a change. If buyer wants horse vetted at a local clinic, they are responsible for transportation. If buyer wants to do their vetting at their barn with their vet, and they are not local, a larger non-refundable deposit is required. Horse does not leave my property without some amount of money changing hands.
- First person to show up with a check/offer/sign the contract. Buyer’s 1, 2, 3 try horse in a span of a month; Buyer #3 makes offer that is accepted, then Buyer 1 makes offer a week later? Buyer 3 got there first. All normal work/showing is continued unless buyer requests horse to be held, again by paying a non-refundable deposit.
- Depends on the horse. I don’t get rads done just to have on hand for buyers. But if they’re already existing for one reason or another, sure I’ll share.
Well, consider this. Buyer has a budget of $25k.
The PPE is $2000 with all the rads in these parts. Say the deposit is $1000? 10% or $2500? I don’t know. Horse fails the PPE. Buyer is out $3000-$4500. That’s 12-18% of your budget blown.
Next horse they go look at is going to have to be closer to $20k, unless they have a spare $4500 in their back pocket and don’t view that as “a total and foolhardy waste of money”.
I have had three horses in a row fail expensive vet checks when I was looking.
Who is this benefiting? a) the vet b) the seller - both of them actually make some money off a no sale. Not as much for seller for an actual sale, but you did get a free exam and know what’s wrong with your horse if it “failed”
The only person being penalized for a deposit is the buyer.
This is the reason I don’t give non refundable deposits to hold a horse for PPE results.
Again, as a buyer, I expect to and am happy to pay a non-refundable deposit to hold a horse, thus I do the same as a seller. That’s the buyer’s risk to take if you want the horse taken off the market and reserved for you. It’s not fair to expect a seller to hold a horse for someone who is not committed to buy and risk losing another sale. You’re perfectly allowed to not pay a deposit, but the seller doesn’t have to hold the horse for you.
If you’re planning on moving into an apartment, and pay a deposit and the landlord lists the apartment as “Not available,” then you decide not to move in for whatever reason, would you expect the deposit back? No.
Some cruise lines offer discounted rates with non-refundable deposits to hold your rate and place on the ship. If you back out, you don’t get your deposit back.
YOU backed out of the sale, not the seller.
Well this is bit different than backing out of a sale on a whim: it’s discovering that the goods are not buyable, or not as valuable as the seller thought.
Anyway, I’ve never been asked to pay a nonrefundable deposit, so it must be uncommon in my area.
Most recent horse I sold was a breeding stallion - buyer sent me a non refundable deposit on the 15th (10%) with the contract that the final sale was contingent upon his breeding soundness. They were out of state, so I hauled to a repro vet that could handle all of the testing for a stallion within the week and the buyer paid for him to stay the weekend and be collected 2-3 times. They also wanted to test for EVA - a horse STD that causes miscarriages (even the vet was like “It’s a little ridiculous - he has no signs, no history, there’s been no outbreaks recently, and it’ll take about a month to come back but I guarantee you he doesn’t have it.”
Since the EVA test would take some time, and our original contract was that they pick up by the 30th - I told them I would take him back and refund their money if for some bizarre reason his EVA test came back positive. (Spoiler alert: It didn’t. And they love him, so all’s well that ends well.)
Edit to add: My non-refundable deposits are always listed with contingencies. In the event of my stallion, I knew he was breeding sound. Only if they had come back and said he was sterile, I would refund the money. But if he was breeding sound and they backed out for any other reason, that deposit was mine for having him off the market during that time.
Agreed. It is more analogous to putting a deposit down on an apartment and then finding out that the place has a structural issue and could collapse at any point in the future. I refuse to believe anyone would just shrug at a lost month’s worth of rent and say “well I backed out, not the landlord so I don’t mind eating $1,500”?
Anyone with half a brain would be clamoring for a refund because the deposit was put down on a house advertised as safe for living and it cannot serve the advertised function. Why should the landlord keep your money?
Similarly, if I put a deposit down for a performance horse and it comes back that the horse has an issue incongruent with their advertised use, why should the seller keep the deposit?
I tend to think that if someone pays for a PPE, that is a strong indication of their good-faith towards purchasing the horse. (Honest question, you probably sell more horses than me) Have you experienced many people that run around dropping money to PPE horses they don’t intend to buy??
This is the critical part for me:
I’ve had horses fail PPEs before where the sellers knew the horse would fail. Not in a “oh it got flexed really aggressively” kind of way, in a “one of these joints is irreparable on xrays” kind of way. I had every intention of buying this horse. They were dishonest in representing it. The goods were not buyable, yet if I had paid a deposit, I have every expectation that they would have taken it with them because “I backed out”.
I’m sure you are personally an honest seller, but it’s buyer beware and if paying for a PPE isn’t enough to make you think I’m serious about buying the horse, I’m not throwing more money at the problem to convince you.
Unfortunately, this is just a part of the process. You are going to spend time marketing the horse, and not all of the time will be productive – you’ll get stupid messages you have to respond to anyway, tire kickers will show up wanting a free ride, you’ll be asked to video the horse surrounded by 6.5 goats, one girl, two boys, and a sheep. The people who actually pay for a PPE on the horse are unlikely to be your biggest time-wasters.
That said, I agree with other sellers that have said they’ll continue to show the horse even if a PPE is scheduled/happened yesterday. It’s just good business in the long run to ensure that a window is given around a PPE for the person who paid for it to make an offer first.
Fully agree with you here. Horse isn’t leaving the farm with a stranger unless it’s been paid for in full in my books. “You break it, you buy it” and all that.
Your scenario is erroneous in your assumption that nobody suffers but the buyer. The seller just had a failure to sell. If the buyer is out $4500 the seller is arguably out $25,000!!!
As a buyer you are free to do as you wish. So is a seller. Thus, no transaction.
End of story.
G.
The buyer still gets to market the horse and sell to another buyer. If it does have something showing up on a PPE that may or may not be off-putting to a buyer, then there is no reason they cant go through this 5x and recoup the cost of the horse just in deposits (its unlikely I know, but it COULD happen)
Im wiith the OP, a non-refundable deposit would be fine on a sale, but absolutely refundable on a failed PPE, I wouldnt even bother negotiating otherwise.
