Horse sent to Mill Creek farm Retirement not doing well!

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7219312]
JB

It was a year between leaving our care and going to Mill Creek. The place he was kept is a small private boarding facility with a great reputation. Who insists the horse only had the same chronic mud fever/dew poison that we combated with the horse EVERY summer for over a decade. He was being treated currently for it.

As per his “cellulitis” did you LOOK at the photos? He’s a 32 year old TB that raced for 4 years and then was a Eq horse a Jumper and then a schooling horse. He stocks up behind PERIOD.
Please point to me in this photo and show me cellulits ? This is moments after he arrived at Mill Creek. Perhaps something sprung up after he got there but he did not arrive with ANYTHING besides dew poisoning. All I see is an older sport horse with wind puffy /stocked up hind fetlocks.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/34ovbkz.jpg

The farm he came from is Rose Apple Stables it is a small private facility with mostly retired horses and a few dressage and trail riders mixed in. There was no gab in the horses care. The BO immediately assumed care for the horse he wasn’t abandoned in the sense of the word his board was not being paid.

Here is her website if you want to critic or pick at her facility.
http://roseapplestables.com/Rose_Apple_Stables/Welcome_to_Rose_Apple.html[/QUOTE]

Why would I critique or pick at anyone’s facility? I’m sorry if my questions offended you. As for the cellulitis, even a licensed vet, which I am not, wouldn’t attempt to diagnose or disprove diagnosis based solely on a photograph.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=Lori B;7219314]
Jackie, please read the thread through before asking the OP to restate things that are already known.

see in the first post:

The OP did not give him to this facility. He was surrendered by the boarding facility at which he had been living AFTER the OP’s farm retired him to the ownership of a past student. She only learned of this series of events after the horse was in the hands of Mill Creek and not doing well.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know where you’re coming from. I read that. I understood that. I asked how long the horse had been at the boarding facility (prior to surrender to Mill Creek) in its state of abandonment. Now I know it was at the boarding facility for a year prior to surrender to Mill Creek. Still don’t know during how much of that time was it considered “abandoned”, but if the level of care never changed, then that’s good enough answer, assuming it’s true. I have no reason to doubt that it is, but it’s better to have actual facts than assumptions, no?

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7219329]
Fairfax I’m going to attempt t be polite with you. Attempt.

He was NOT just willy nilly given away. When our facility closed a student who had ridden and had a relationship with the horse over years asked if she might be allowed to take over his care in retirement. A small private facility with someone who for years at been loyal to the horse seemed like the PERFECT situation.

The rest of our retire’s are living very much in a field board situation with run ins and grass fields still owned by us. We knew the horse well enough to know he’d struggle in that environment and THAT IS WHY we went another route with him. Max was THE ONLY horse we allowed to go into someone else’s care because at the time it was BEST for him. The other alternative would have been to euthanize him…he’s not a horse suited for a field in hot FL 24/7.

That student suddenly flaking out and literally leaving town /vanishing on the BO was not something we ever would have considered and he went with a return for any reason clause. To this date I have not been able to locate said person nor make any headway on WHY she didn’t contact anyone and flaked out.[/QUOTE]

My point was…and stands…another person you describe as going flakey and ditching the horse with a stable and them running up a bill keeping him…is what it is all about. The horse is also OLD OLD OLD and even OLDER than Dirt.

This does not reflect on you however by your own admission, this horse had major issues from age four…

I spoke with an Arabian Horse breeder in Florida and she said her old horses are out every day…most tend NOT to use the shade trees or shelters…and as long as they have access to water they are fine. Also, her horses do NOT go in at night…but they are separated into areas for feeding so the bullies do not rule.

Your problem is why I do not like the new key word…forever home. It is only forever when we euthanize them. A horse, rehomed, after the age of 20 is at peril. That is a fact.

You did not do the wrong thing. It just turned out wrong…but I am sure this farm has also watched many owners dump their horses and then claim, when they are located in a kill pen…that they want their horse back…it should never have gone there…it is not their fault etc.

Until we get over our repudnant fear of death and just put them down when we have no use for them…we are part of the problem.

Why would a student…good bad or indifferent…take a twenty plus year old horse with major issues? She obviously ran out of money and ran from her responsibility…yes…she could have contacted you…but she didn’t.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7219476]
Why would I critique or pick at anyone’s facility? I’m sorry if my questions offended you. As for the cellulitis, even a licensed vet, which I am not, wouldn’t attempt to diagnose or disprove diagnosis based solely on a photograph.[/QUOTE]

It was sarcasm JB sorry.

The photo’s and the horses prior records are evidence that he was not suffering from 99percent of what was purported. Yes he has had issues with chronic recurrent dew poisoning.

Maybe I’m just aghast at how outlandish and off base the findings are.

If the vet would have a conversation with me about his past history/management maybe she’d know those things instead of making claims based on assumptions.

"“He also had some behavioral issues such as weaving, cribbing and pacing which many times are associated with horses that have been stalled and bored for too much of their lives”

She’d know those were remnants from perhaps his time on the track and that if he exhibited them at Mill Creek it was a result of some external factor @ Mill Creek upsetting him not the horse acting out because of an assumed negative past.

[Frizzle]

Here’s the email I sent to Mill Creek:

Hello,

When a horse arrives at your facility looking like this http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=34ovbkz&s=5
and in three months has deteriorated to this walking skeleton http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ainhq9&s=5#.UlOfOmS9LTo
something needs to be done for the poor horse.

He is obviously starving and needs additional care. If providing for his needs is
not something you can/wish to do, he should either be put down or released to one
of his previous owners who is trying desperately to provide a safe, comfortable retirement for her former horse.

It’s sad that she had to take this to the Internet in order to get something accomplished, but she claims that you feel
Max’s care is adequate. As a horse owner, it’s blatantly apparent to me that this horse is not thriving at your farm and is
in need of immediate care. Please do the right thing for him.

Thank you

And the response I got from someone named Nora:

I have been volunteering at Retirement Home for Horses since 1992 and currently spend a week every month volunteering now.
I don’t know the source of your information on Max but it is terribly wrong. Max is a 31 year old horse who when he arrived had swollen legs with sores. The people who brought him up said it was from standing in muck and he was obviously kept for long periods in a stall for he had difficulty walking.
Immediately upon entering a paddock with grass he started to graze. And after he was examined by a vet he was put in a pasture with another horse Rose. They are given double buckets of grain twice a day and Max is a wonderfully happy horse which anyone can see. He now walks and trots more easily and comes to the fence for the many carrots he is given throughout the day when anyone drives by on a golf cart.
I don’t know who is putting this gross misinformation on the internet but it is obviously meant to cause harm.
It seems that Max’s well being is only being protected by Mary and Peter Gregory who know more about caring for senior horses then anyone I have ever met in the horse world.
You owe them a massive apology and if you really cared for Max you would have first made sure your information was correct.

[JackieBlue]

You know, I sat on my hands for a few minutes after really studying that last photo, but I just have to say it. That’s not a fantastic looking horse in that picture. It’s just not. It’s well lit and taken from a flattering angle, but look at the protrusion of the spine and hollowing of the flank. If that was the day he arrived at Mill Creek, then I agree with their vet’s assessment 100%. That is a horse that is underweight. Yes, he’s OLD. Does he look good for 32? Yes, but he’s skinny. A photo from the other side, with shadows in his hollows and his mane on his neck (like the 12 weeks later photo), would have made this look like an entirely different horse.
And the dirt patterns on his back sure as heck look like dried dirty sweat to me. Maybe that weighed into the decision to skip the OneAC? Even if they’re not sweat marks, they can cover a variety of sins as far as condition of skin and coat go in a photograph. Any of us who have photographed many horses know how a photo can make or break one and that things like rain rot and scratches, hell even bite marks, often aren’t evident in pictures. Even in person rain rot is often more easily felt than seen, at least until scabs are removed.
I DO believe he’s lost significant weight at Mill Creek and I applaud you, OP, for doing something about it. I’m just not sure that the owners of Mill Creek are Mr. and Mrs. Satan. I get that this is not a popular opinion, but perhaps there is more than one program in which a horse can thrive, given a chance to adjust?
I really would just love for a knowledgeable someone to go and see the horse and report their findings. This is all based on photographs and hearsay and history. I’m interested in knowing the facts now.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Frizzle;7219522]
Here’s the email I sent to Mill Creek:

Hello,

When a horse arrives at your facility looking like this http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=34ovbkz&s=5
and in three months has deteriorated to this walking skeleton http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ainhq9&s=5#.UlOfOmS9LTo
something needs to be done for the poor horse.

He is obviously starving and needs additional care. If providing for his needs is
not something you can/wish to do, he should either be put down or released to one
of his previous owners who is trying desperately to provide a safe, comfortable retirement for her former horse.

It’s sad that she had to take this to the Internet in order to get something accomplished, but she claims that you feel
Max’s care is adequate. As a horse owner, it’s blatantly apparent to me that this horse is not thriving at your farm and is
in need of immediate care. Please do the right thing for him.

Thank you

And the response I got from someone named Nora:

I have been volunteering at Retirement Home for Horses since 1992 and currently spend a week every month volunteering now.
I don’t know the source of your information on Max but it is terribly wrong. Max is a 31 year old horse who when he arrived had swollen legs with sores. The people who brought him up said it was from standing in muck and he was obviously kept for long periods in a stall for he had difficulty walking.
Immediately upon entering a paddock with grass he started to graze. And after he was examined by a vet he was put in a pasture with another horse Rose. They are given double buckets of grain twice a day and Max is a wonderfully happy horse which anyone can see. He now walks and trots more easily and comes to the fence for the many carrots he is given throughout the day when anyone drives by on a golf cart.
I don’t know who is putting this gross misinformation on the internet but it is obviously meant to cause harm.
It seems that Max’s well being is only being protected by Mary and Peter Gregory who know more about caring for senior horses then anyone I have ever met in the horse world.
You owe them a massive apology and if you really cared for Max you would have first made sure your information was correct.[/QUOTE]

I thought this horse doesn’t have teeth? How is he grazing/eating double buckets of grain?

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;7219498]
My point was…and stands…another person you describe as going flakey and ditching the horse with a stable and them running up a bill keeping him…is what it is all about. The horse is also OLD OLD OLD and even OLDER than Dirt.

This does not reflect on you however by your own admission, this horse had major issues from age four…

I spoke with an Arabian Horse breeder in Florida and she said her old horses are out every day…most tend NOT to use the shade trees or shelters…and as long as they have access to water they are fine. Also, her horses do NOT go in at night…but they are separated into areas for feeding so the bullies do not rule.

Your problem is why I do not like the new key word…forever home. It is only forever when we euthanize them. A horse, rehomed, after the age of 20 is at peril. That is a fact.

You did not do the wrong thing. It just turned out wrong…but I am sure this farm has also watched many owners dump their horses and then claim, when they are located in a kill pen…that they want their horse back…it should never have gone there…it is not their fault etc.

Until we get over our repudnant fear of death and just put them down when we have no use for them…we are part of the problem.

Why would a student…good bad or indifferent…take a twenty plus year old horse with major issues? She obviously ran out of money and ran from her responsibility…yes…she could have contacted you…but she didn’t.[/QUOTE]

Fairfax her old horses don’t have anhidrosis…

As per semantics he was a family horse and it was not a choice that I was alone able to make. I’m much more pragmatic and would have put him down. A private care facility was a good 2nd IMHO.

As to why the student took the horse…I’m going to be anthropomorphic because she LOVED him. He’s not the first school horse to be taken by a student because they fall in love with the horse. She knew his issues she’d ridden the horse for years.

As for this farm. Please please please understand. I’ve known the horse was there since August. The offer to take the horse back was a result of the recent developments. It was an offer that since/if hes not thriving there I’ll gladly take him back.

I am NOT a former owner gunning to get their horse back. I’m a former owner concerned about the care and condition of the horse and who has offered every way I can to help guide them to getting him back on track. They’ve refused including financial support.

Fairfax the reason Max is old old older then dirt is because of the care we provided for him for the last 20 plus years. Including the year he spent at Rose Apple.

His condition didn’t change until he went to Mill Creek.

[FalseImpression]

I still think that if money is sent for the supplements and they are not giving said supplements and not advising the sender of such, they are stealing… any 501 org is supposed to use funds sent for a dedicated purpose… ie supplements, and nothing else…

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7219534]
I thought this horse doesn’t have teeth? How is he grazing/eating double buckets of grain?[/QUOTE]

He does not. His upper incisors are worn down to the gum.

He nibbles grass or at least he did and only would eat super soft 2nd and 3rd cutting O/A.

Hence the warning to Mill Creek he’s not a horse that will thrive in a field board lifestyle.

[Frizzle]

My 9-year-old horse, who admittedly is a bit “neurotic” and has to have either a stall w/paddock attached or be out in a pasture or he will weave, was recently having some anxiety issues. We tried all kinds of things, and what worked was switching his stall/paddock to one @ the other end of the barn, which did settle him down & make him happy.

But by that time I had made plans to take him to a facility where he could be out on pasture 24/7 instead of in a stall/large paddock during the day & in a pasture @ night. I took him up there Friday. And guess what? I brought him back home yesterday because he was not doing well, was clearly not happy, was not eating, very stressed, covered in dry sweat, etc. There are plenty of horses @ that facility who are doing great and clearly thrive in that environment, but mine was not one of them. A veterinary exam would have come back fine, but I could tell that be had dropped weight and didn’t seem at all like his usual self, so I brought him home.

And before anyone suggests that maybe I just needed to feed him carrots, I did try that. :yes:

[mkevent]

FWIW, I don’t think anyone is trying to vilify this place. It certainly serves a need and works well for many of the horses living there. I would not want to see it shut down.

The problem is that this is not the ideal situation for every horse, especially one with special needs. Throwing a horse like this out to pasture is akin to cruelty. This is not benign neglect-it is neglect.

If this facility can not provide quality of life to the horses there that are clearly not thriving, something else needs to be done. Either euthanize before they decline so rapidly that they look like skeletons or give them to someone who can care for their special needs.

I respect when people can admit that they cannot provide what they originally thought they could. There is no shame in admitting that. The shame here is the denial and arrogance on behalf of the farm owners and those denying the horse is not doing well.

If you can’t provide the care the horse needs, give him to someone who can. Don’t be an @sshole and act like it is acceptable for a horse to starve to death because it is old.

I hope the owners didn’t make their millions in nursing homes.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7219531]
You know, I sat on my hands for a few minutes after really studying that last photo, but I just have to say it. That’s not a fantastic looking horse in that picture. It’s just not. It’s well lit and taken from a flattering angle, but look at the protrusion of the spine and hollowing of the flank. If that was the day he arrived at Mill Creek, then I agree with their vet’s assessment 100%. That is a horse that is underweight. Yes, he’s OLD. Does he look good for 32? Yes, but he’s skinny. A photo from the other side, with shadows in his hollows and his mane on his neck (like the 12 weeks later photo), would have made this look like an entirely different horse.
And the dirt patterns on his back sure as heck look like dried dirty sweat to me. Maybe that weighed into the decision to skip the OneAC? Even if they’re not sweat marks, they can cover a variety of sins as far as condition of skin and coat go in a photograph. Any of us who have photographed many horses know how a photo can make or break one and that things like rain rot and scratches, hell even bite marks, often aren’t evident in pictures. Even in person rain rot is often more easily felt than seen, at least until scabs are removed.
I DO believe he’s lost significant weight at Mill Creek and I applaud you, OP, for doing something about it. I’m just not sure that the owners of Mill Creek are Mr. and Mrs. Satan. I get that this is not a popular opinion, but perhaps there is more than one program in which a horse can thrive, given a chance to adjust?[/QUOTE]

Jackie I’ve said over and over the horse is a hard keeper.

That photo is also after a 5 or 6 hr trailer ride in the middle of July.

I’ve also never said they were Satan or vilified them just expressed concern that there is no reason in only 12 weeks he should have been allowed to degrade to that point.

I shouldn’t have had to call the ACO to get the vet back out to re check his apparent weight loss. The new plan for the horse was POST my ACO call.

What would have happened if nobody called ??

Remember the first conversation had with Mr.Gregory I was told the horse hadn’t lost any weight and was skinny when he got there. …

[Lynnwood]

Here is the initial email response I got from Mill Creek it was dated August 21 2013

According to him at that time the horse is doing great , improving …so then tell me why 60 days later does he looks so poor ?? He thinks I’ll notice a big improvement ??

[B][I]"Hello Heather:

We had a big storm today – lots of rain. I haven’t checked my rain gauge, but wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t have 3 inches. One large pasture has a pond about 4 acres big.

One of our vets was out around noon to check on some recent arrivals and just escaped the deluge.

Max is doing fine. He’s in a 5 acre pasture with a 22 year old TB mare who spent 12 years in an experimental program at an university outside of Florida. For exercise, she and her companion mares were put on a treadmill to cover 50 miles a day – sometimes with a rider on her back. She was bred annually and her foals auctioned off to help pay for the program. The program closed down and 30 mares were on the auction block. Many had neurological and other health problems. We took 3 of the mares and one is in with Max. She accepts him and he likes her especially as she stands back and lets him have first choice of grain and treats.

Yes, Max had lots of problems when he came, but he has improved greatly. He has found a shady spot where he can get out of the sun and there is a run-in shelter to escape the rain. He is groomed weekly by our volunteers and we check on him several times a day. He is learning to live like a horse – out in the open without being shuttered up for hours at a time. We hope you will notice a big improvement if you come to visit. By the way, we haven’t noticed him cribbing lately although that’s a hard habit to quit.

Just in case you didn’t know, horses that come here stay forever as they are buried here when they eventually die.

Let us know if you are going to visit and keep an eye on the weather.

Peter Gregory"

[/I][/B]

She accepts him and he likes her especially as she stands back and lets him have first choice of grain and treats.

Can I just point out the above. Supposedly he’s being fed 10lbs of Senior BID …if the grain is personalized for him why would the mare have to stand back and allow Max to have first choice.

Are they not fed out of seperate containers.

JackieB to address a question you asked earlier there is NO way to visit and watch the horse eat. They are only open to the public 11 to 3 on Saturdays.

So other then their word and the horses current condition there is no proof he’s eating all the grain provided vs taking a few bits and wandering off to crib(much more his MO) and the mare is eating it.

[Manahmanah]

If this was a horse I cared about as much as the OP seems to it would be escorted under the cover of darkness to my waiting horse trailer. I would be willing to gamble on a sympathetic judge or at least a lengthy process to determine actual ownership… At the end of which if did not go my way would be PTS instead of departing again. I know not all are willing to take such a risk though. I also seriously doubt a couple of 80 year olds are going to spend a ton on lawyers chasing after such an old and expensive horse.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;7219598]
If this was a horse I cared about as much as the OP seems to it would be escorted under the cover of darkness to my waiting horse trailer. I would be willing to gamble on a sympathetic judge or at least a lengthy process to determine actual ownership… At the end of which if did not go my way would be PTS instead of departing again. I know not all are willing to take such a risk though. I also seriously doubt a couple of 80 year olds are going to spend a ton on lawyers chasing after such an old and expensive horse.[/QUOTE]

If I had to bet on it, I would say you are dead wrong. Whoever attempted such a thing would be arrested and prosecuted.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7219592]

Can I just point out the above. Supposedly he’s being fed 10lbs of Senior BID …if the grain is personalized for him why would the mare have to stand back and allow Max to have first choice.

Are they not fed out of seperate containers.

JackieB to address a question you asked earlier there is NO way to visit and watch the horse eat. They are only open to the public 11 to 3 on Saturdays.

So other then their word and the horses current condition there is no proof he’s eating all the grain provided vs taking a few bits and wandering off to crib(much more his MO) and the mare is eating it.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps their both fed from buckets and Max approaches first, claims his bucket, and then the mare steps to her bucket and is fed. This is how it is often done with 2 horse who get along well in a pasture setting such as this. One expects, and is given, first dibs, so you empty that one’s feed first.
Have you asked if you can visit during feeding time?

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=mkevent;7219562]
FWIW, I don’t think anyone is trying to vilify this place. It certainly serves a need and works well for many of the horses living there. I would not want to see it shut down.

The problem is that this is not the ideal situation for every horse, especially one with special needs. Throwing a horse like this out to pasture is akin to cruelty. This is not benign neglect-it is neglect.

If this facility can not provide quality of life to the horses there that are clearly not thriving, something else needs to be done. Either euthanize before they decline so rapidly that they look like skeletons or give them to someone who can care for their special needs.

I respect when people can admit that they cannot provide what they originally thought they could. There is no shame in admitting that. The shame here is the denial and arrogance on behalf of the farm owners and those denying the horse is not doing well.

If you can’t provide the care the horse needs, give him to someone who can. Don’t be an @sshole and act like it is acceptable for a horse to starve to death because it is old.

I hope the owners didn’t make their millions in nursing homes.[/QUOTE]
This!

[Manahmanah]

Also chiming in to point out the painfully obvious. It doesn’t matter how much food you give the horse if he is burning it up by being miserable and walking fences. They can walk off as much food as you manage to stuff into the poor things. If a horse has had access to a stall for 30 years it is cruel now to deny him access to one. A lot of people are on this kick about how a horse is meant to live forgetting that the horse should be permitted to live how it WANTS to live. I am in NJ, not nearly as hot as Florida, and I have some horses who just will not tolerate being out of the stalk for more than 3 hours. Then the pacing starts, and if you don’t get to that gate soon after the screaming and running begins. Sure, I would love to leave them out all day. It’s healthier to breathe the fresh air and a lot less work for me if they are scrapping in pastures and not stalls but I will not make the horse miserable in order to achieve some notion of how I think it is “meant to live”. Horses are meant to live in a manner that makes them happy, especially old campaigners like this who have worked all thier lives. He deserves that.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7219604]
If I had to bet on it, I would say you are dead wrong. Whoever attempted such a thing would be arrested and prosecuted.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I have no desire to handle this in any way other then above board.

I have reached out to the rescue , offered the horses true history, offered financial support . I have reached out now to the vet and asked to discuss his history and provide his records.

I am nothing if not logical and pragmatic , nobody needs to be vilified but it is unnecessary for them to make sweeping assumptions and incorrect generalizations about the horses past when 22 years worth of care and management are available to them.

Max in better times
https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1185858_10200269151205265_1614543782_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/994324_10200269160405495_1248788289_n.jpg