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Horse that WON'T put his head down.

Endurance and Trail Riding
#41

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;3058124]
ya know…I posted my comments to you before checking your posting history… as I have now done so this will make about the third time you have gotten “knotted knickers” from a thread…each time telling people to shut up after things did not go your way…

           if it helps, it is a [B]very[/B] common thing to distract a green rider so that the body does what it can naturally do on a horse.....the windmills with the arms and the touching the toes while on a lunge comes to mind....both which secure the seat while giving the rider something to do elsewhere...as they are connected to one another....

          by correcting the horse YOU paid attention to him...you fine tuned YOUR response to him....instead of feeling helpless when he stumbled, you were given a task and while absorbed in the task, you felt less helpless and more secure in the stumbling itself....YOUR attention was honed into him....not the other way around...[/QUOTE]

Ah–I understand at last! You agree with me, correcting my horse for tripping was the right thing to do! Thanks!!!

ETA: I just went and read my 53 prior posts and have no idea what you are talking about. The only time I got knotted knickers, I started with them and blasted someone for starting a negative thread.

I’m not debating my posting history with you, I’m only asking everyone else to not take your word for it, and read my posting history for themselves.

#42

no mam’ had I been the lucky trainer paid to come and help you we would have had a discussion about the tendencies of the gaited breeds to have overly long hind cannons…which lend themselves to interference with the fronts…there is one long term way to work this…

6 mos of slow steady every day work in a non shanked snaffle which allows for the loin to “catch up” to the task of daily riding…

and you would be in a proper saddle that spread your weight over the whole of his back…

preventing your lack of balance from interferring with him further and allowing him to carry a stablilized load and not a wiggling bag (not unlike a toddler on ones shoulders)…

and daily lessons for you on a broke horse…

but then there would not be an “immediate” fix for you…

#43

Looking closely at your point of view, I can see how we are both right. I’m right that a seasoned horse needs to be chastised from time to time if he’s tripping due to inattention, and you are right that I needed more focus.

I believe that I’ve said multiple times that my experience with a seasoned horse wouldn’t necessarily translate to someone else’s with a baby.

I’m not getting into any kind of an argument about my posting history–I went back and looked at all 53 for myself, and I can’t imagine what you are talking about. The one time my knickers were in a twist, they started that way–I blasted someone for starting a negative thread.

I only challenge anyone else to read my posting history for themselves and not take your word for it.

I did worry that I was pulling him off balance riding bareback, but I couldn’t find a saddle that fit him. Perhaps I did get better, so now he’s fine–he hasn’t tripped excessively or interfered in about 7 long months. I’ve got great balance on a horse, however–I only fell off once in March, and then he slipped and nearly went down in November, so I took a spill then. That’s after riding 5-7 days a week with a bareback pad on trails only. I’ve ridden out some major spooks without getting in his mouth–I can pretty much keep my center of gravity welded to his back no matter what he does–I think it’s because I rode for 7 years bareback as a kid, and it really is like riding a bike! You just never forget.

It’s silly to argue about stuff like this on message boards–you’ve never seen me ride, and you don’t know my horse. I make plenty of mistakes, but I’m a good rider with great balance and independent hands. However, there’s no way for me to convince you of that, so I’ll let it go.

Peace.

#44

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;3058153]
no mam’ had I been the lucky trainer paid to come and help you we would have had a discussion about the tendencies of the gaited breeds to have overly long hind cannons…which lend themselves to interference with the fronts…there is one long term way to work this…

6 mos of slow steady every day work in a non shanked snaffle which allows for the loin to “catch up” to the task of daily riding…

and you would be in a proper saddle that spread your weight over the whole of his back…

preventing your lack of balance from interferring with him further and allowing him to carry a stablilized load and not a wiggling bag (not unlike a toddler on ones shoulders)…

and daily lessons for you on a broke horse…

but then there would not be an “immediate” fix for you…[/QUOTE]

I got after my horse. The horse stopped tripping. The horse stopped interfering. He stopped these behaviors within a week. If you choose not to believe my, there isn’t really anything that I can do with it. The horse has not interfered in 7 long months.

I wonder what I’d see if I looked at your posting history?

#45

Ok - I’ll take the challenge. I think your posting history goes further back than Arrow’s 53. Will that include the other 1,152 posts you’ve made under Hoot & Tick? Of course it would. Welcome back! Kicking your horse for tripping, and speaking sharply to it, while using the trainer defense mechanism clued us in - I am surprised you didn’t suggest she tie his head around to the side for putting it up in the air!!

#46

[QUOTE=AnotherRound;3058215]
Ok - I’ll take the challenge. I think your posting history goes further back than Arrow’s 53. Will that include the other 1,152 posts you’ve made under Hoot & Tick? Of course it would. Welcome back! Kicking your horse for tripping, and speaking sharply to it, while using the trainer defense mechanism clued us in - I am surprised you didn’t suggest she tie his head around to the side for putting it up in the air!![/QUOTE]

Sorry, not Hoot & Tick. I bought my horse in January of 2007 after 25 long years of horselessness. I ride in northeast Ohio–West Branch and other places nearby. I never ride in arenas or lunge my horse–I’m strictly a trail rider. Arrow goes over or through any obstacle in his path–he’s the most amazing trail horse that I’ve ever ridden. Yet when we get cornered by trees while bushwhacking, he stops at a word and wait for me to make a decision. He’s so willing, it’s not funny. We have a great partnership that doesn’t need fixing–tweaking from time to time, like anyone else, but not fixing. I’ve logged more hours on my horse than anyone of my aquaintance in the last year and 2 months–not more than anyone on this forum, but anyone that I personally know. I ride almost daily, and I’m not big into mechanical fixes–tying a horse’s head, using chains on a gaited horse’s feet, etc. I’ve taken as my gaited horse bible Lee Ziegler’s Easy Gaited Horses.

#47

[QUOTE=AnotherRound;3058215]
Ok - I’ll take the challenge. I think your posting history goes further back than Arrow’s 53. Will that include the other 1,152 posts you’ve made under Hoot & Tick? Of course it would. Welcome back! Kicking your horse for tripping, and speaking sharply to it, while using the trainer defense mechanism clued us in - I am surprised you didn’t suggest she tie his head around to the side for putting it up in the air!![/QUOTE]

If I hurt Tamara’s feelings with my posts as much as you’ve hurt mine with this one, AnotherRound, well then I sincerely apologize to her. I’ll try not to get my knickers in a twist from now on.

#48

Sorry guys, been away for a bit.

He is a warmblood, who I “thought” was a stallion prospect, BUT, he is a bit TOO “hot” for me, even though he is only 3, I feel he should be showing a better efforts/disposition for who he will be in the future. I have had him with a trainer for the last 6 months. I really really thought he would change for the better, so I wanted to put 6 months to give him the benefit to show how “great” he can be with consistancy (I was also was thinking that it could be a personality conflict with me). He is worked with daily, but not “hard”. I have gone over and over again about wanting to take the MOST care of his physical and mental well being. So, I have been careful not to ruin his attitude or joints. Anyway, he is an expert at “starting” horses. Many of the dressage/hunter jumpers/eventers/reiners/cutting trainers here use him, because he is very correct at what he does. What he (horse) is displaying now, I’m not interested in keeping him a stud. SO, he is getting gelded this week. The trainer also feels his head thing is in part to the stud factor. I also had him in training to prepare for the stallion testing, BUT, now that I have finally decided to geld him, he will get a few months off to grow and get rid of those hormones. (Probably till this fall) He has attitude. (why he is getting gelded, point number 2). I have a dressage past and I do know how to put him on the bit. He goes there and then comes up. Which I expect. I think what really really has me flustered, is his attitude and his resisting. WHICH, looking at this with clearer eyes is probably because he is a stud, because he is a baby, because of growing, because he is not ready. I have actually worked with him “giving” his head in hand and have for the last year, he is GREAT on the ground. ??? Maybe it is me putting him off balance?? I’m sure it has a LOT to do with me, I have had a bit of “frustration” in my thoughts, but really really trying to not show them.

I have tried all the tricks. Ground poles, down hill, rocky ground, walking circles, half passes, vibrator hands (I call it), lots of bending of his frame at a stand still, walk, shifting my wieght back, getting him to strech down, the german martingale, etc. He is also always/only ridden in a fat snaffle. It is like he “gets it”, but fights it something fierce. SO, I’m hoping it is because of his teeth or something, not just being plain stubborn.

BY THE WAY, I try to just stay on the buckle 90% of the time, but I just ask for just moments of him “giving” his head to me, he will sometimes, but others just flat out says NOPE. Once he gives it to me, I release right away and tell him how good he is. I’m just asking for MOMENTS, not a full work out. I would like to work to maybe 20 steps—I’d be HAPPY for 20 steps!!! I’d love to post a photo, but can’t. (can someone for me.)

#49

I didn’t read all the posts, but what bit are you using? My mare hates a single jointed snaffle – her head was always up, no matter what I did. When I changed bits, the problem disappeared immediately. Try a double jointed, a Myler snaffle that can’t fold fully, a straight mouth, or a hackamore, and see if it makes a difference.

#50

I guess I’m rather a plain jane when it comes to all these geegaws - and Lord knows I’m not and expert on training young horses.

If you’re eliminating physical causes, that’s important. Losing the martingale - yup - another good idea. The fat snaffle… hmmmmm.

Normally I don’t think training problems can be fixed with a bit.

But if you’re having someone take a look at the horse - it might be a good idea to have that person look at the horse with the bridle on as well. Even ride the horse a bit. Perhaps this bit is uncomfortable for the horse for some reason - a reason that has nothing to do with your hands or riding? It’s possible. A second set of eyes might help you figure that out.

For the gawky uncoordinated young horse - you just can’t beat cavalletti work. Not ground poles, mind you. I think the best book I’ve seen is the Klimke classic on the subject - you can buy it cheap on Amazon if you’d like to take a look.

If nothing else, just setting up an exercise or two from that book will give you two something else to work on. Any horse can benefit from that work. Not endless drilling - just a few minutes of it. It makes a horse have to think about where it is putting its feet.

Anyway - good luck.

#51

OH MY GOSH… GREAT!! IDEA!!

LOL… funny when something so EASY doesn’t pop into your brain!!!

I have been just focussing on what I thought was a soft bit—trying to not go a step higher…but, that would be great. :slight_smile:

I have been using a FAT single jointed snaffle. I’m going to go to the store today and pick one up and take it to the trainers. (Maybe he has tried this, i don’t know, but I’ll ask.)

Feeling stupid.

Thanks Jswan… have done some cavelett, work, it seemed to make him more hot. ?

But, thank you, will check out other workouts.

#52

Nah - not stupid. I’ve got a barn half full of dumbbloods - I mean warmbloods - I mean draft crosses - and the fat snaffle is uncomfortable for them. I did find that a thin French training snaffle seems to sit better in their mouths - and does not hit their rather low palates. But it was beaten into my head that a fat snaffle is best - use the fat plain snaffle blah blah blah. So I’ve got those too. But - even for daily schooling on the mature horses - I still use the French training snaffle.

It’s worth a shot - but definitely talk to your trainer or vet or other trusted professional.

Re the cavalletti - I don’t feel right about giving advice - but the ‘hot’ may just be excitement or rushing. All this stuff is normal with a young horse. Everything is new and exciting or worrisome or attention grabbing or an excuse to play or whatever. The dressage forum folks may be able to help you more than I feel comfortable doing. The cavalletti work is just 3 or 4 cavalletti and you do the exercise and then move on to other things - go back - do other things - vary it so the horse doesn’t anticipate.

I guess I’m giving training advice after all. Feel free to ignore it.

#53

I agree with this also. My mare hates a single jointed snaffle. I switched to double jointed that fold nicely over the tongue and bars and don’t jab in the roof of the mouth and she got much better. Of course I prefer bitless and am slowly getting her back into that frame of mind now that I have a hack noseband that she likes.

And once again - you put this Warmblood with a trainer at 2 1/2 years old. That is entirely too young, in my opinion of course. That something I would just never do. But that’s just me. If it were me, I would take it VERY EASY on this baby. Give him some time. Let him grow up. What in the world is your hurry? :confused: If you want to still be riding the horse at 30, I wouldn’t push him at 3. Again - just my opinion. No need for flames. I’m just sayin’. :slight_smile: We’ve raised a lot of babies and have never started them at 2 1/2 that I can recall. It’s been light light work at 3 or 3 1/2. Light as in walk trot, easy stuff. No real riding till 4. I still call my mare a “baby” and she’s 5.

#54

Arrow also tossed his head with a single-jointed Kimberwicke. He went fine in a solid Kimberwicke, but pulled a lot. I switched to the Myler medium port with the 5-inch hbts and independent side action, and haven’t had a problem since.

#55

I haven’t read all the responses, but I wish my “head in the air” horse was 3-he’s 17, and with a bit of an upside/down neck, it is a challenge to say the least to muscle up his topline. He rounds real well, does lateral work just fine (because he is in a round frame before I ask.) When I got him his owner had ridden him with a martingale-to me it just made things worse. He was used to bracing against it, which really developed his under-neck. I say good luck, if it is your horse’s conformation that is making him be high headed, you have some years to help support different self-carriage, but do be wary of using tack short cuts for fear of causing resistance.

#56

Often problems with raising the head and neck come from a weak back. The fact that the horse is able to keep his head down when you’re working with him on the ground tends to support the idea that at 3 his back muscles are still too undeveloped to lift his back and lift you when you’re on him, particularly if you have an imperfect seat (and not many people have a perfect seat!) When you write that you’re able to “put him on the bit” temporarily and then he lifts his head up in resistance again also sounds like weak back muscles. Horses’ necks, jaws, polls, and backs get tired after just a few minutes with head down/riding on the bit, if they’re not used to it.

I like your idea of giving him at least six months off. Can’t speak to the wisdom of gelding the horse without seeing him and knowing him.

Again, it’s hard to comment in general terms, but sometimes I see people being too focused on getting the head in a particular position. Correct head position comes from correct work with the back and hindquarters; it happens almost of itself if the horse is carrying its weight properly. Is it possible that in your emphasis on avoiding what is an annoying and embarrassing head carriage in your horse, you have got things backwards? When you resume training him, would it be possible to just forget about where the head is for awhile and concentrate on strengthening his topline and teaching him to use his hindquarters appropriately?

No criticism intended here, I know how difficult this can be.

#57

I’d agree with him…nothing like looking for girls to make a feller forget to knuckle down and pay attention…however I would not agree with an extend leave from working…you will have to lunge him in any event to manage the swelling from the gelding itself…no harm in keeping his schooling going :slight_smile:

#58

Lets not forget what the horse’s NATURAL headset is also. It’s not particularly “natural” for a horse to be broken at the pole, nose on the vertical and “rounded up” like our show rings are full of. If you observe domestic horses free in the pature, or herds of wild horses, the neck and head are held nothing like what we consider to be “correct and healthy.”

I prefer to ride on a fairly loose rein and let my horse put her head wherever she wants it. Sometimes that’s down low checking out the footing, mostly it’s up fairly high. I guess I have a totally different viewpoint than some people who think the horse has to be on the vertical and rounded up to be moving “correctly.” Correct according to WHAT? Correct according to WHOM? Of course it’s good to develop the whole neck and not allow the horse to ground pound and go hollow all the time. My horse kind of went through that stage. I think she was just so busy gawking at everything.

Being inverted and hollow with nostrils up in the clouds and pounding the ground with stiff hocks isn’t the same as traveling naturally flat, stretched out, or with head and neck elevated. Even a naturally high headed horse can get too hollow. But I have quit putting any emphasis whatsoever on “get that head down.” To me, it’s just NOT important.

To me, this shows a normal, healthy, happy horse out doing his job on the trail with no interference or micromanagement from the rider: http://www.photo.lynnesite.com/gallery/3523468_6XR2L#P-4-15

That’s a really lovely photo :slight_smile:

#59

AT you are obviouslt an Arab Afficrnado, That us the way I pefer to ride as well, However, can you inagine getting some other breeds ro do this way? We need to consider the horse and choose one who suits our famcy.

#60

OH I agree with you completely! Each horse is different for sure. Just wanted to make the point that just because it’s a warmblood doesn’t mean he should travel in a “dressage frame” for trail riding. And the OP wasn’t saying that, but I was just throwing that out there for discussion.

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