Horse that WON'T put his head down.

[Tamara_in_TN]

@Arrow;3058159

It’s silly to argue about stuff like this on message boards–you’ve never seen me ride, and you don’t know my horse. I make plenty of mistakes, but I’m a good rider with great balance and independent hands.

.

    you have pretty well posted your entire history of this animal and his travails....

and we have this little bit from another thread…

[QUOTE=Arrow;3039317]What’s the point of threads like this? Ooooo–look at us at COTH, we’re cool, we’re wonderful, we’re perfect, we’ve never made a mistake, we are in fact the kings and queens of the woooooooorld!

I’m guessing that as long as this thread stays on the first page or two, you’ll get no new members–well, maybe some more arrogant blowhards, there are always plenty of them around.[/QUOTE]

  it really does seem it is your way or the high way...

[Horsecrazy27]

Hello,

I started him early because I was intending to put him through the stallion testing—which is 3-4 years old. (Oldenburg) I have never started a horse this early either. He is not getting worked in an arena on circles over and over (like the standard training for prep for a stallion testing), just for very short periods to w/t/c on even flat ground. The arena is a double “roping” arena. It is HUGE and you have plenty of room to let the young ones have room to balance. He is not getting asked for serious collection, he is getting trail rode to strengthen his hind end, build confidence, learn natural balance etc. He has been handled very very very carefully, I assure you that he is not in “danger”. His rider is 130lbs with the saddle and a fantastic seat with soft hands and a forgiving heart. This horse is of excellent quality, but his “attitude” is not what I call “stallion material”. Which REALLY bumms me out. (TOO many stallions out there that are super easy (as I believe a stallion should be) quiet and a serious value to the market. He doesn’t have the right attitude to keep his man hood. As I said before, I thought it was a personality conflict between him and I and I wanted to see if he was a different horse with someone else. It takes horses a few weeks to settle in at a new place/new rider and when you are taking it slow on the training, I thought 6 months was a fair time to make a judgement on his future. He is not changing. He has an attitude that isn’t just under saddle. I have an older Oldenburg Stallion who is a puppy dog, easy easy easy to handle, easy to ride, natural collection and NO attitude. In addition, he never went through a phase like this colt either. I can only remember like 5 times where I had to even correct him. This guy, every second, he is in trouble. (well, at least it seams like that.)

I will continue to lunge him and light occasional trail rides, but for the most part, he is going to have a chance to relax, re-group, grow when he gets home. When he is home (in 2 weeks) I will have more control of what is happening. I can also try all kinds of bits here too, to see what he likes. (still feel stupid about that.) His dam, likes a HEAVY bit for trail rides and a double broken bit for arena work. So, maybe he has the same mouth.

See why these boards can be such a blessing?

I just want him to soften to my hand. If I ask for him to pick up the bit, I at least want a “try” (6 mo. of training, he should be able to hold it for 2 seconds and know what I’m asking), but he acts like he has no clue, then goes to arguing.

Again, I’m not expecting him to carry his head for “minutes”, just 10-20 feet—that is like 10 seconds. It just is flustering to have him not try, then to basically give me the “finger”. But, I think it has to do with a multiple of reasons. (Stud, weakness, bit, maybe wolf teeth, stud, stud, stud, young, not at home, hottness, etc.)

His neck is now upside down. WAS NOT when he went up there. He seems to carry his head high now, and then when you get to the point of asking, he resists and then he continues to resist. With me, I TRY AND TRY to remember my trainers smart words of “It takes 2 to argue”. SO, I get to a point and then keep coming up with different things for him to think about. For instance. I’m standing still, I ask him to just soften his jaw and come on to the bit. He says, “nope”. So, I go forward, then ask for a side pass (not a “real side pass”, but moving away keeping his should from dropping), then hault, then work on moving away from my leg by doing turning on the forehand, haunches, then moved to a trot, then back to a walk. Then I ask again for him to soften in my hand. About 1 time out of 7 he will. I’m just looking for that “soft feeling” in my hands when I pick up the reins. I rarely feel that. I will also ask for this on the trail and try and encourage him to drop his head to see where he is walking. He is pretty good with steering with my legs, but just walks with his head like a giraffe. These mountians are rocky and you have step downs/ups and he really needs to watch or he is going to fall. ERR. Anyway, I don’t think I’m explaining my self well.

Thank you all for your positive support.

I was hoping that there was something that I wasn’t thinking of, and the bit was one. I just kept thinking (I have such an easy bit), but wasn’t thinking–try a different one. ERRR.

I’ll keep you posted and thanks for not flaming me.

I hope I explained myself better. Seem to can’t put words together today.

[Horsecrazy27]

Thanks!

[QUOTE=J Swan;3058384]
Nah - not stupid. I’ve got a barn half full of dumbbloods - I mean warmbloods - I mean draft crosses - and the fat snaffle is uncomfortable for them. I did find that a thin French training snaffle seems to sit better in their mouths - and does not hit their rather low palates. But it was beaten into my head that a fat snaffle is best - use the fat plain snaffle blah blah blah. So I’ve got those too. But - even for daily schooling on the mature horses - I still use the French training snaffle.

It’s worth a shot - but definitely talk to your trainer or vet or other trusted professional.

Re the cavalletti - I don’t feel right about giving advice - but the ‘hot’ may just be excitement or rushing. All this stuff is normal with a young horse. Everything is new and exciting or worrisome or attention grabbing or an excuse to play or whatever. The dressage forum folks may be able to help you more than I feel comfortable doing. The cavalletti work is just 3 or 4 cavalletti and you do the exercise and then move on to other things - go back - do other things - vary it so the horse doesn’t anticipate.

I guess I’m giving training advice after all. Feel free to ignore it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you again!!!

[Horsecrazy27]

just saw this

[QUOTE=goeslikestink;3056999]
you never ever ever punish ahorse for a rider mistakes especially at 3 yrs old horse dont know nothing

op-- work the horse from behind-- to poll so he relaxes his yaw-------

by lenghenthing and shortening your strides in an areana using th e whole lenght of the arenae with plenty of half halts and transitions - keep the horse straight and forwards so he can learn to become balanced

his high head carriage is counter his balance because hes not balanced-- up hil work and down hills arnt good for a young horse with no education

balancing comes from work in school with baisc walk trot – lengthen the walk shorten the walk move on up to trot so horse legehtneings – etc

ie free walk medium walk extended walk trot sitting rising extended – mix of two wlak and trot free walk — medium trot – working trot extended trot

free walk teach the horse the half halt stride in walk till he understnads it practice in downwards transitions as it easier for the horse to learn as there is no where to go but stop

the horse is a baby he gets his q’s from you the rider good or bad he learns from you[/QUOTE]

Hi GLS

I just had told my trainer to work on this!! HOW FUNNY!

Great minds think alike.

Thanks for the input and care!

[Arrow]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;3058730]
you have pretty well posted your entire history of this animal and his travails…

and we have this little bit from another thread…

  it really does seem it is your way or the high way...[/QUOTE]

You are quoting a post I made in a negative thread–a thread that served no purpose. That’s not the same as getting mad in the middle of a discussion. The thread stopped growing shortly thereafter–apparently some people agreed with me there, just as some people agree with me here. Do you understand the concept of agree to disagree? Some agree with me, some with you. You don’t even listen to me, you don’t read what I write carefully, you just keep stating the same things over and over and overm

All the travails of me and Arrow? How exactly, where? How many posts? Most of my posts haven’t been about our travails–I posted about Firefly, Bryers, turnout policies, oil, and a host of other things, in fewer than 60 posts. I took a similar position to a lot of other posters on the vast majority of those threads.

I was conciliatory on the last page, I basically apologized, I said “peace.” I said that we were both right, and explained why. Did you read that?

Can you explain why you are continuing with this? We’ve had a host of posts since mine that have been on topic–why bring this up again?

[grayarabs]

Well going down the trail I love looking through the ears!! So I don’t ride in dressage frame on the trails - but that does not mean high-headed - dropped back.
Noting what others have mentioned, young horse, possible weak back, bit, exercises for balance - ie poles, figures - I will tell you what helped me. Whip training.
I started out years ago - green rider with green horse - half Arab/half Saddlebred - long (beautiful) neck - set high - hottish horse - head first thing up for a spook - so I rode with running martingale. I wanted to ride dressage and trails with him. My trainer gave me a neat exercise for me/that horse - ie whip training. Perhaps we started at a walk - me riding - carrying dressage whip. Horse head up. I would do light rhythmic taps which would rather annoy him - he tried many things to avoid the taps - and do expect horse to go a bit forward with this at first - so have some contact. FINALLY he opted to put his head down - I stopped tapping. Head shot up - he got tapped (on hindquarters).
He was a smart cookie so quite soon he figured out - head up - get tapped - head down - no tapping. Voila. This accomplished a lot of things for both of us. We got some “go” without kicking - and I was not “fidding” (pulling) with the bit to get his head down.
Everything was black and white for both of us - both green. From there I worked on a more classical way of connection etc. Works in trot - I am sure I tried canter - don’t remember. Out on trail we rode “above the bit” - and he was graced with being sure-footed - so no problems there. Anyway - the whip training a wonderful tool. Remember - these are annoying taps - not whacks. You could start this on the ground - getting him used to the whip - ie moving over, etc. Try it - it works!!!

[Petstorejunkie]

since his neck has become upside down, it sounds like whomever is riding him has been taking contact, instead of allowing the horse to seek it, and then cradling the horse’s head in their hands.
Back to basics and be patient. At this point you cannot expect much because his muscling won’t allow it. Perhaps putting him in a really steady inviting bit will help. I would personally try a mullen baucher or mullen eggbutt and see how things progress.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Arrow;3057399]
When I speak of punishing a horse for tripping, I’m not talking about getting in his mouth or beating him–I’m talking about giving him a small kick and saying “watch it” in a sharp voice. When I bought my horse a little more than a year ago, he was an angel for about 4 or 5 months, then he started interfering and tripping all over the place. I’d never had a gaited horse before, so I had a trainer come in and evaluate us. She told me that he wasn’t paying the slightest bit of attention to me. I started getting after him for tripping, and he stopped doing it within a week. He hasn’t had the stumbles since–now when he trips, I know it’s an accident and just tell him to “take it easy” in a gentle voice. I trail ride only and never ride in indoor or outdoor rings.[/QUOTE]

still wrong with a kick as well — not the done thing-- its a squeeze–
as in a push you push the horse forwards not kick it

[Arrow]

O.K., will do.

[HiddenStars826]

I believe this thread has taught me that it’s normal to see the trail through an Arab’s ears…

Am I the ONLY one that has an Arab and wonders where their head is? He carries his head at poll level, his ears pricked as far forward as he can get them. When the head comes up, I’m usually in trouble LOL- it usually means he’s spotted something that will be scary, or something of the sort. Its funny to read about everyone being used to the head in the air with the Arabs, when I rarely if ever end up looking through his ears! My horse is really a QH cross at heart, I think sometimes!

[CosMonster]

I’ve known a few Arabs with naturally low headsets, but they definitely are the exception rather than the rule! Currently I’ve got two, one with a pretty low head–when we’re in any sort of lengthened trot she’s pretty much flat from poll to tail–and one with the stereotypical head in the air–when he’s on the bit at training level, his head is in the same position as a second level warmblood’s! Definitely most are in the high headset category, though.

On topic, everything I had thought to say about youth and bit issues and everything else has already been said, so all I’ll add is good luck OP, and kudos to you for insisting your stallions have good temperaments as well as good conformation!

[Auventera_Two]

It seems that what we’re really talking about is the NECK set, and how it ties in from the shoulder, and not necessarily the “head.” Arabs tend to have necks that are tied in high and straight up from the shoulders. A lot of QHs have necksets that are tied in low and flat. You have to take into account the conformation of your horse before asking them to carry the “head” in a specific position.

[MSP]

Breezed through this thread and didn’t see where anyone touched on this. If you already heard it or know sorry, I didn’t have time to read whole thing.

To get a soft horse use a gentle bit! I like and use the Myler comfort snaffle.

To teach the horse to give to the bit I start on the ground with the bridle on. Grab a rein in each hand and pull back and hold anchoring your hands in one position. The horse will search for the right answer and for some comfort which will be to bend at the poll. As soon as he bends at the pole drop the reins. Repeat and he will soon learn that pressure on the reins equals bend at the poll.

Then practice while mounted, and at a walk and at a trot. Always release but lengthen the amount of time you hold. After many months you will be able to ask for light contact and start to drive him with your legs and get him to collect. Always progress in small steps and don’t forget to praise and reward.

[Horsecrazy27]

update

[QUOTE=Petstorejunkie;3059441]
since his neck has become upside down, it sounds like whomever is riding him has been taking contact, instead of allowing the horse to seek it, and then cradling the horse’s head in their hands.
Back to basics and be patient. At this point you cannot expect much because his muscling won’t allow it. Perhaps putting him in a really steady inviting bit will help. I would personally try a mullen baucher or mullen eggbutt and see how things progress.[/QUOTE]

Just thought I’d update you all. Okay, pulled him out of training early as the trainer would not do what I recommended (which was basically the above quote.) ERRR. The trainer also did NOT geld him----which REALLY ticked me off. Get to that in a minute.

I gave him 4 days here to relax and re-adjust. I then took his Dam’s bit and tried it on him with a “sir single” (sp) and side reins and starting from the beginning. He did WAY WAAAAAYYYYY better than I expected. I was VERY patient, kind and understanding. He actually used his top line and he looked really really good. He even softened his jaw and gave! So, it was a SHORT session–I just want to keep it happy and easy! I want to stay on that path to build his confidence level back up. (Or mine?) We have a long way to go to “undo” what they have caused, but all will work out. Just wanted to say thank you for the advice. I also bought a “Milor” (sp) bit, and will try that to see if he likes that one even better.

Won’t go on like I’d like about that trainer—LESSON LEARNED that is for sure. Expensive one.

[RydArab]

[QUOTE=TwoArabs;3056427]
You haven’t said what breed it is yet, but if it is an Arab get used to looking at the world through his ears. I hate to ride those horses with their heads down. It always feels as though I’m going to go through the windshield[/QUOTE]

snort:lol: Last year when I started Bashirah I’d ocassionally give her a grazing break. It was a bit unnerving to be sitting on the edge of a sheer drop off. My horse dropped her head & had no more withers! Where did they go?? Made me think how if she ever puts the head low and slams on the brakes, I might be slamming, too- into the ground before me!

OP:It sounds to me like your baby might be experiencing back stress and possibly pain. I have read that the back growth plates are the very last to close (correct me if I’m wrong, ya’ll) on a youngster. I do know folks who don’t ride thier Arabs untik they are over 4 for this reason. That’s another debate, though.;)It would make sense to me that his back may not be entirely ready for the job you are asking.

Again- it takes time. :yes: Is he long backed? Do you do belly lifts to strengthen the back & loin area? Can you do carrot exercises to strengthen the upper neck muscles more -by having him curl his neck under toward his chest for the treat?

If he were my horse I would definitely do away w/ the martingale and spend lots and lots of time teaching him a nice “head down” cue from the ground. After he has completely mastered it from the ground then try while mounted. I taught Bashirah by just placing my hand between her ears & letting it rest. If the head went up the hand stayed- if it dropped, even infinitesimally, I instantly removed the hand & gave lots of praise. After she figured that one out I put the hand between her ears and gave the verbal cue “drop”. She picked it up very quickly. She is young & sometimes needs reminding but “drop” makes her lower that head most of the time.

Hope this helps.

[lindat]

[QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;3078046]

I gave him 4 days here to relax and re-adjust. I then took his Dam’s bit and tried it on him with a “sir single” (sp) and side reins and starting from the beginning. He did WAY WAAAAAYYYYY better than I expected. [/QUOTE]

YEAH!!! Glad your boy is responding!!!
:):)

[Horsecrazy27]

Thank you.

I have a person coming to look at him this week to buy! PLEASE jingle for me that he buys him!

He is looking at him for a stallion prospect—he is gorgeous, he just has WAY too much energy for me…but for someone else he may be perfect. If he doesn’t buy him, (he is getting gelded fast.) I’m not used to horses like that at this time in my life…and don’t want to own one like that either. MAYBE that is a good thing the trainer didn’t geld him. He was suppose to be gelded the end of Feb, hopefully it is a sign that this person will buy him. Looking for some reason to be happy that the trainer didn’t geld him. He is a trainer/horse dealer, sells horses back east. He is into jumpers and this guy should fit the bill, in addition to great movement, the horse can jump! He likes hot horses too—so, hopes he buys him.

I noticed too and wanted to add that he has grown a lot while he was up in training—I’m sure that has a lot to do with it and he seems to be likeing the break. Just need to pop him some downers. LOL JUST KIDDING WOULD NEVER DO THAT! JOKE.

[Beverley]

Just wanted to share some of my experience with you in case it is helpful. Glad he is responding to your latest approach. Some sidereins work can be beneficial. But, let me point out, when I was given a big ol’ 5 yo warmblood, who had been in dressage training for a year and knew proper ‘frame,’, responses to legs, etc…I discovered a huge hole in his education. He pretty much had no clue where his back end was at any point in time. Those who had schooled him in dressage had simply cranked him into a frame and gone forth, never giving him the basics that all horses in all disciplines need, which are nothing more than allowing the horse to learn how to carry itself, at all three gaits, OFF CONTACT before beginning to teach the principles of that direct form of communication via the rider’s hands.

So, in addition to dropping back and trying to give him those basics in arena work, I also took him on judiciously planned trail rides where he would penalize HIMSELF for incorrect carriage and foot placement. A trail with the occasional rock can be your friend here. Using the lightest contact I could get away with at all times on the trail, I simply let him go ‘ow’ when his lack of attention to detail resulted in stepping on a rock (note we did this mainly at the walk, the intent is to teach the horse, not to cripple it!). No snatching of the bit or gigging with the legs. Horse doesn’t pay attention, he penalizes himself! Early on, yes, once, his back end simply went off the trail into a 3 foot deep ditch. I can tell you though that in the ensuing years, he is well balanced at all four gaits for both flatwork and jumping, and effortlessly negotiates trappy mountain trails that might make your hair stand on end.

As for correcting ‘high headed’ horses, I think it’s already been noted here that your issue is not one of evasion. Where that is the case, I was taught by a French Cavalry (Cadre Noir) instructor that the rider ALWAYS keeps hands ABOVE the bit- no matter how high that head goes. And it is true that this works, and is the quickest way to convince the horse that your being in touch with his mouth, from above, is never, ever going to go away, and so keeping his head in the right place at all times is the easiest course of action for him. Mostly these days I see people simply trying to crank down a high head from below, with either hand or various training contraptions like martingales. Not the right approach! Keep hands above the bit!

Hope that helps.