Horse turned butt at my daughter and kicked while being lunged.

We have a 7 yo super sweet, relaxed Paint Gelding. The darling of the barn and everyone who meets him. He does have his own will now and then of course, but he is very sane, and kind.

He gets lunged as much as 5 times per week by the assistant at our barn, as well as by my daughter a few times per week. He gets turned out only about 3 times per week to play with his buddies.

Due to a hoof abscess (totally healed, he saw the vet and all), he had not been lunged all last week. He felt good and was acting well and went to a small schooling show Sunday and had a great show, seemed happy. Monday, he had the day off but no turnout due to constant rain.

Tuesday (yesterday) while lunging, twice, he turned his butt toward my daughter and kicked (not full out, just a good threat) and she brought him back to a trot for about 5 minutes and then the Barn Assistant took over, and he had a lot of energy to let loose. He did however, turn his butt to her once in the process as well. She continued on and finished and didn’t feel fearful that he would actually kick. My dd got on and they had a great but short ride.

Our trainer is out of town for 10 days, and we did reach out to her but I’d just like some ideas and thoughts. I don’t know if he’s Lunge-Sour, or maybe it was just that he is grumpy from all the time in the stall. Between the non-stop rain and the abscess he sure is sitting around a lot and not having much playtime with his buddies. We are working on getting him turned out inside the covered arena with a buddy today.

I will have my daughter hold off on lunging and leave it up o the barn staff for a while, since I certainly don’t want her getting kicked.

Any thoughts? If it was him being lunge-sour it doesn’t make much sense since he essentially didn’t get lunged for more than a week. We did hand-walk for half an hour, three days while he had the abscess.

As you describe it, this sounds like a bad situation for a horse. Very little turnout and way too much longeing. Leaving aside the consequences of the access, it’s hard to understand why a sweet little horse would be on this program. Personally longeing a quiet, trained horse more than three times a week for 15-20 minutes is excessive in my book. Perhaps you can explain further.

In all honesty it would be very difficult for someone on a bulletin board to tell you what to think about the “kicking” without actually seeing it because we can’t tell whether it was a little buck or an aggressive move. From what you say about the Barn Assistant’s reaction, it’s more likely the former but it doesn’t matter if his hoof connects with a person. It does damage in either case.

Caution is appropriate but from what you’ve said, I feel like the horse is in a bad situation and bad things are likely to result eventually. Perhaps a change of trainer and/or living arrangements would be best.

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Every horse has to be managed according to their energy level.

Looks like your very nice gelding is one of those, as they say around here, that “can’t stand prosperity”, meaning he needs more work and exercise than others, that rather lazy around and take it easy.

Now that you know he may get fresh and needs to be into more steady work than he has been getting, or he will just be more vigorous and forward, you can manage for that.

One good way is, as you are doing, letting professionals handle him until he is back to his own happy, quiet self.
I wonder also if with less work he was also given less food, especially grain?

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What kind of longing?

Run around in a circle to release some energy? Or active training (typically with side reins) working on roundness, and balanced, prompt transition?

Was he actually threatening her? Or just “horsing around”?

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He gets turned out only three times a week???

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And what did your daughter or the barn assistant do to correct him when he did it? While I feel bad for the horse having pent up energy, there is absolutely ZERO excuse for a horse to turn his butt toward the handler while lunging. Even if it’s playful - I don’t care because it can turn into danger in an instance. I have a zero tolerance policy for things like this.

Based on your description, it sounds like nothing was done to correct him except “ignore it”. Which in my mind, is giving the horse a green card to keep on doing it.

This horse needs more turnout, and more riding, and less lunging.

And of course, needs to Be appropriately corrected when his butt goes toward the handler.

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A horse who kicks in my direction is showing disrespect, in the pasture or on the lunge line. Very BAD doing it while being handled, hoping horse was corrected so it does not escalate.

He is getting a LOT of lunging time, can be hard on young legs. Why doesn’t daughter change to riding time over lunging him on some days? Being so young, I expect horse is probably feeling very good, needs to expend extra energy from being stalled and well fed.

Does anyone in your barn use long-lines over lunging? We never lunge anymore because of the greater benefits from long-lining. One major benefit is handler controls both ends of horse inside the lines. Unless handler loses control horse is not going to swing his rump at you for kicking!

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Thanks for all the thoughts…

I emailed Trainer today and she said he needs a spanking when he turns his butt to her, but I will let the staff deal with that. …however we didn’t get into the cause of our usually happy cheerful gelding acting sour…

Today, we went down and she just rode the horse and they had a great ride, but he still seemed bummed to be back in his stall. …so we went down at 7:30 pm to try to get there when everyone left to turn him out. :slight_smile:

He only gets turned out so infrequently right now because it’s rainy season here, it’s been raining for pretty much two months straight. So we went down at 7.30 pm and turned him out in the covered arena, and he had a ton of fun, letting out his energy and some gas, and after about 20 minutes of fun and rolling, he decided he was done and was happy to go back into his stall. So, I guess we will have to go down a few times per week to get him turned out when no one is using the covered arena. OUr arena is full from 5:30 am to 10 pm almost every day, we were just super lucky that the person about to ride said they’d wait 15 minutes and clean some tack while we turned him out!

I think also after reading your posts…and thinking about it.

I think he is a combination of lunge-sour AND had a bunch of pent up energy. So, after sitting in a stall all week and not getting lunged, or much turnout (ONCE In 10 days), he was grumpy about being lunged, but didn’t handle his feelings well because he had so much pent up energy inside…

So our plan is:

Let the staff lunge and don’t add to it unless they really haven’t done it in days. For now, don’t do it at all until the trainer comes back and assesses the situation. …

Go down at night when the area isn’t being used and turn him out

As soon as the weather clears up (we should have five days of sun, yay!), make sure he gets turned out in the pasture with a buddy to play with.

Unfortunately we’ve been through two facilities and two trainers, as well as observing/visiting many others… and I find that every barn/trainer has problems. One is a snob and has so much drama it’s like a soap opera. The next is not really a “Trainer” but just exercises your horse once a week and doesn’t actually have any clue how to deal with any problem. The next is 2000.00 a month…there seems to be no perfect situation, so we have to try to work with what we have through A. Communication B. Creative taking care of things on our own when we can …

The biggest problem with our situation is the lack of space. We just have to get even more creative when it’s raining…pretty soon we will have to get up at midnight to find time to turn him out! …not really but …

PS I don’t know what long-lining is…I will look it up. I know some people prefer to free-lunge and the horses seem to prefer it too! But you can only do that when you have the covered arena to yourself.

We are all sick of the rain :frowning:

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Horses with excess energy will buck and play on the lunge line. They should not however, be allowed to kick in the direction of the person who is lunging them. Best to let the trainers deal with that issue.

The limited turnout is working against you. Lunging is a useful tool, but used in excess, is hard on legs and joints.

You mention it has been raining for two months straight. Presumably it is light rain, at least at times. Does your facility have any sacrifice paddocks that can be used? Something that is safe when it is wet outside but affords a horse the opportunity to play a little. Perhaps he would benefit from outside turnout for 30 or 60 minutes in a dry-lot on those days when the rain is light but he cannot be turned out in the indoor. Turnout in rain isn’t ideal, but it might be a better option than leaving him in a stall so much.

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There is no purpose to lunging. He’s not “lunge sour,” he’s lost respect due to a lack of meaningful interaction. Do groundwork, and ride. Just having the horse go round and round and round, side reins or not, is purposeless and does not engage the horse’s mind. I do not understand why this horse gets lunged instead of ridden.

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Like others, I do not understand why the barn doesn’t turn out in the rain.

Has anybody taught your daughter to correctly and safely lunge a horse? Does she know how to properly use a lunge whip and always have it when she lunges? Spinning and kicking in the handlers direction must be corrected. Immediately, that’s what the lunging whip is for, smart slap on the butt to send the horse forward. Horses can also spin and rush towards the handler, another reason why the must have respect for the handler and proper use of a lunging whip is a must. As is rigging the line so there is some kind of control or use side reins

Not to be alaming but in the 45 years I’ve been in horses I personally knew, though not well, only one rider who was killed in a riding accident but 2 who were killed lunging horses and a handful of others with serious head injuries, like a fractured skull and multiple operations to repair facial damage. Another couple got run over and suffered broken ribs and concussion. You can end up the same turning horses in or out and just chasing them around an arena. None of these horses were evil but all were fresh and healthy and all of these handlers were just using a plain line snapped to the halter ring. All except one were under 21 too, young people.

The older one was a Mom turning the kids horse out to " play", thing spun and kicked her upper teeth right into her sinus cavities…and it was not a bad horse or anything, nice, quiet Paint too. Just hadn’t been out for a few days. Mom didn’t know how to lunge, thought she was doing a favor. Really, I kept my horse a block away from this one and one of the fatalities was just up the street, kid lunging her fresh horse out in back of the house.

Ever watch how fresh, healthy horses play with each other? You should. Think you need to rethink things as far as working on the ground with your healthy, fresh horse. They can hurt or even kill simply because of their size. You can end up in their way and pay a very dear price, it’s not their fault, they reflect their training and respect for you.

There are correct ways to lunge but they require knowledge and an understanding that lunging is a teaching session with a goal and it demands respect and focus from the horse. It also requires some type of restraint in rigging the line or reins so it proves Its not a free fior all all, blow off steam romp around a person on the ground with no control or protection. IMO lunging is most often misused as a way to avoid just getting in the horse because the rider is afraid to ride it and the horse lacks respect for the person. Your daughter should be able to get right on that horse most days and that horse should not need anything but occasional, correctly done lunging. With al, the money and time you have dumped into training, you and the horse should NOT be where you are on this. She needs to be comfortable just getting on and riding. That goes triple for the trainer-Pro should definitely just get on 99% if the time if they really have it trained.

Again not to be overly dramatic or recite third hand horror stories but turning them loose to rip around a small, enclosed space like an arena is not a good idea. Known many who injured suspensories from from coming out of the stall and immediately going to 100% hard exertion iwith no warm up. Personally seen two caracasses in rings shortly after bad accidents resulting in PTS where they fell, one hooked a leg on a fencepost and snapped it, the other was out with a BFF turnout partner, they played and BFF landed one on his shoulder blade shattering it-that one was just awful to see.

Im not going to describe how to correctly lunge, can’t be learned by reading about it. There are a lot of references available online but some of the sources and demonstrations are…questionable.
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Realky think you need to explore the more NH oriented trainers, not the game players but the ones who teach mutual respect from the ground up, not going around in circles because that’s all they know how to do or teach. The breed and/or show barns and trainers tend to be pricier and too many focus on getting them show ready and placing well- things that don’t really mean the horse is trained or the rider is anything but a passenger. All they know getting the horse tired enough, they don’t even know how to develop a properly trained horse much less teach others. There are many trainers out there who incorporate traditional NH techniques into training and go to shows, you need one of those, just one focused more on turning out real riders and trained horses then bright shiny things to hang on the wall.

NH is nothing new, just picked up the tag in the last 25 years or so. It’s old techniques based on understanding how a horse thinks and what it responds to. That’s all. Yet it also requires patience, consistency and time commitment that our instant result seeking culture no longer cultivates.

Theres a fair share of quacks in NH promising instant solutions. It really takes a lot of time and many hours with competent instruction starting, literally, from the ground up. COTH is a great resource for advice from horse people who have made every mistake in the book so are willing to share so others don’t do the same dam thing. Like all things Internet, most things are helpful, some aren’t. Try to ignore the things and people who aren’t helpful.

Google Buck Brannaman to start. Watch some of his videos to start understanding what you need to seek. We are on a journey with our horses and some roads are better to travel then others…but there’s no directions or road signs.

Hope we see you on here more, best free advice you will find.

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Thanks for all the thoughts…Yes my daughter does using a lunging line and chain/cavesson properly looped through the horse’s halter. She has a lunge whip but our trainer says it’s not exactly the right kind, as the end of it has two little leather things rather than one flat one. So we are working on replacing that.

Thank you for all the scary stories, in a way it’s good as it solidifies my decision for my daughter to not lunge until her trainer is back and she gets more lessons. Although our trainer just tends to say “get at him” meaning spank him when he’s naughty.

Sadly that does not always address the whole root of the issue which I believe is a combination of factors (including the rain, lack of turnout etc.)

For someone who said they don’t understand why my daughter doesn’t ride the horse, she rides him 5 days per week and keeps her riding short, focused and working to ensure her horse is listening and obedient, not running the show. Three of those five days are also lessons with the trainer, so even more focused. Other than the issue of him balking on trail rides, they’ve never had an issue in the area or during leading or during groundwork other than lunging…thank God. Our trainer rides him an average of 2-3 days per week depending on the season.

Our barn prefers that people lunge before every ride, unless the horse had already been lunged by staff that day. Obviously at least for a while, we won’t be following that “rule” since I am concerned about safety.

As far as NH, it’s sad…of course I’d love that. But again, we are where we are. You can’t just pick up your horse and move every time something seems off. We could move our horse, possibly burn our bridge with our trainer, put our horse through the stress of learning a new environment and routine, start all over and then find that the NH person we picked can’t work with my daughter, or her horse, or there’s something else wrong, etc. …I know all about NH as a dear friend of mine is Parelli level 5 or something like that…but unfortunately it’s not that easy to just change facilities and trainers. This woman has been very good to us, and genuinely cares about my daughter and her horse. I’d rather try to communicate and work through things, than just leave.

BUT i like to come armed with my own thoughts, and you guys have really helped me create a plan for now, and also figure out what to research and think about so I am ready to communicate more clearly.

OH and yes, they don’t overdo the grain. He gets extremely high quality roughage, and only one little scoop of grain 4x per week plus his supplements. We had a horse over-grained one time, when we were on our own and she went crazy! lol

And, we don’t know if he really was activitely threatening her…he didn’t kick out, just a threat-kick type of kick…I’ve often seen horses buck on the longe line, but I haven’t seen them turn their butt at their owner…so I am pretty sure he knows that’s not respectful.

findeight already wrote everything i was going to say, but please make your daughter wear a helmet ANY time she lunges.

it sounds silly but on more than one occasion it has saved a person.

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agreed!!! helmet is absolutely non negotiable

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He gets grained 4 days out of 7? Why on this scheduled and why does he need grain at all?

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I am not sure what you’re getting at and your question comes off as strange, and rude…

Around here it’s pretty standard to give performance horses a little grain as a vehicle for supplements, as well as a little nutritional supplement as well. four days per week b/c that’s when they have staff to do it. Over-graining is not healthy so I am glad it’s a small amount.

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Graining a horse only on random days seems very weird - even if it is just a small amount. Most supplements require daily feeding to get any benefit - feeding them randomly may just be a waste of money. What supplements is he even on?

I am not trying to be rude or strange - but the 4 day/week graining seems strange to me. I own western performance horses, so I am familiar with the world.

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