Many feel horses do better when feed consistent amounts daily, not only on some days. Same amount fed more on a regular schedule often leads to fewer digestive problems. That’s the prevailing experience based opinion worldwide. Its my opinion based on 45 years of ownership in both coasts and in the middle including QH and Paint show horses, Western and TB/WB Hunter Jumper.
Please take anything offered on here as open discussion, not judgement.
I just wanted to chime in and say that exploring some NH doesn’t mean you need to find a new trainer! I recently decided that I need to work on my geldings occasional attitude, and bought some of the Buck Brannaman DVDs. I’ll be focusing on some groundwork etc and I doubt my (non-NH) trainer will have an issue with it.
I also want to put in a recommendation for Buck Brannaman’s work - I’ve been involved with horses for more than 30 years and getting to audit a couple of his clinics + watching his DVDs really changed the way I look at some things. I’m somewhat ignorant about Parelli but my understanding is that there are a LOT of differences in their methods. Regardless of if you end up using any of it, I really think Brannaman’s work is worthwhile to explore.
I have never ridden at a show barn so I have no experience with the typical routines, so I’m just asking, not criticizing. Is that kind of work schedule the standard for programs like these?
How trainers manage depends on the horse and owner/rider.
That was so decades ago, is still so today.
Some horses and riders can handle so much, others prefer the trainers do, others are learning, they can only do so much.
Plenty of English and Western barns cater to amateurs and have horses ready for them to ride in lessons and then at the shows for them to show.
Some times the trainer/assistant warms the horse up, tunes it, whatever that horse needs, so the amateur can have the kind of experience it is looking for.
Very nice for super busy or not so able/older clients.
Horses and horse showing is a service industry.
Generally speaking, most find BB, his daughter and others using those particular NH techniques and theories are far more effective at translating to better performance under saddle then the PP games and levels. The PP games and steps/ levels, while they can develop good ground manners, don’t seem to translate to solving issues that come up when riding the horse, particularly at any speed faster then a slow jog. Deserved or not, the PP system as a reputation for suiting those who prefer to stay on the ground or stay real slow when riding. It’s cliche but there’s some truth there.
Many trainers incorporate a good deal of NH as a standard part of their program so watching some YouTube of BB clinics and listening to his thoughts should not conflict with your trainers program.
Think something that bothers me and other long time owners is the policy of every horse being lunged before every ride. That’s not the routine in the average training operation in any discipline. It trashes their legs over time, tends to get them going crooked which bites you bad in pattern classes requiring straight lines, mess up lead changes and does not equip riders to deal with misbehavior and can teach them to be afraid to get on if lunging is not possible. And it’s not always possible at shows. It’s a crutch. Course if you can’t LTD there’s always the Liquid Lunge Line. Least that doesn’t beat their legs and encourage leaning and one sidedness.
Really unusual to see this much lunging in Western barns where many horses are selected based on quiet, agreeable temperments. Even in the HJ barns with high octane balls of energy ready to jump 4+ courses they try to stay away from excessive lunging and those clients can get right on those horses without mandatory lunging. Unless they’ve been off and actually are fresh, then they do it in a controlled way with sidereins and make it a schooling session for the horse.
Trainers not your BFF, it’s a business, advice given relates to you continuing to generate profit. Better trainers look at the long term potential of creating more independent horses and riders that can make their own decisions and ultimately stay in the program longer and generate more profit. Too many lesser trainers create more dependent clients unable to make independent decisions generating more profit in the short term but few stay long term when they learn more. Hope that makes sense.
You should discreetly shop around for one that does not require every horse lunged before every ride. Watch the warm up rings at shows to seek one out. Listen to those conversations around you in the stands. Rarely find these good guys on line or see any advertising, it’s all word of mouth and most their clients come from other barns when they tire of required hand holding.
And it’s always a good idea to have a back up in mind. Trainers have life changes, move, go broke, get sick, or the barn closes if trainer does not own the property just leases the stalls, whatever, Thafs bad time to try to investigate other options. Most of us learned that the hard way.
Again, this is a dialogue between those of varying experience level and years in training barns, not judgey pants lecturing. Use it as a learning tool, horses are a lifelong journey and there’s al ways something new to learn around the next corner.
OP, just trying to get a handle on the feed routine. You said that your horse gets grain 4 days a week, mainly because he needs the supplements that he gets added to his grain. Instead of an odd 4 times a week, why not give him wet beet bulp every day instead? Sprinkle a handful of his feed in there, but give it to him every day.
Does he have access to hay 24/7?? Horses were designed to have food/forage moving through their system, constantly.
In terms of the bare minimum of turnout that he’s getting (I’m not criticizing here, just can’t get my head wrapped around it), any horse is going to crazy with basically no turnout. He’s brought out once/day to be lunged, around and around. Of course he’s going to be sour.
Looking at the situation as a whole - minimum to no turnout, questionable feeding program, no stimulation, etc. will all lead to a horse with ulcers, a horse who will blow once he’s out and a dangerous situation for your daughter.
FindEight- Yes you are correct, we should discreetly look around and keep our eyes open. This particular trainer does INDEED not mind if her clients are pretty helpless. My dd as part of Pony Club has learned a lot and so have I and we feel it’s our responsibility to fully understand the horse, feeding routines, help with minor injuries and be present for all vet visits. At least 6 of the other owners I know don’t even know how to wrap a leg, put on a salve, they don’t even know how to put on wound cream and disinfect a simple cut, or for goodness sake a the last schooling show one lady complaiend that no one fed her horse and my daughter (14) and I gently instructed her on how to hang a hay back and fill a bucket of water. (not kidding) IN fact she wasn’t going to even feed her horse till my daughter pointed out the horse was the only one without hay and I went over and kindly asked why he didn’t have any hay 
Meanwhile back at the barn, the supplements issue is that the BO is too busy to do it on Tuesday and Thursday and Sunday. So she has the assistant do it on M/W/F/Sat…but if I ask, have you grained the horses? SHe will say “I will get to it”…we will leave and find his grain bowl in the same spot as before, and it turns out he hasn’t been grained, as I can count my Smartpaks and they usually disappear at the rate of 4 per week. But if we ask, DO you mind if we grain our horse? they will complain that all the other horses will be pissed off that one is getting grain (which is true as we have done that and seen the reaction as we go down the aisle with the stuff they love and then they get none)…so yes 4x per week is not ideal but we figure, that he will survive. He gets Dynamite, Hoof smartpaks and BugOff/Flax
yes and the more I think about it the more concerned I am but I don’t know what to do! My daughter refuses to consider leaving.
and yes we purchased our horse with the understanding that hte trainer would keep him tuned up, so that’s why she rides him, but her rides are very short just ten or 15 minutes and believe it or not it does make a difference. Lately though she has only ridden him twice in the last 3 weeks, and then she got on him and was very rough with him because he was a little out of tune and not where he should have been, but she would not have had to be rough with him, if he had been tuned up 3 times per week the way she was supposed to do.
I’m sorry, but I would not find this acceptable. Horses always come first. I would leave any barn where a trainer felt feeding my horse wasn’t their number 1 priority.
If your daughter refuses to consider looking for another barn, ask her what is her top priority - her ambitions + a sour horse, or the horses’ well-being and new learning opportunities? Good luck! What you have described is overall a very unhealthy situation for any horse and is very likely to make a horse sour, unhappy and potentially explosive/dangerous.
Also, I get huge red flags about the trainer “having to be rough” with the horse because he “was a little out of tune and not where he should have been”. If a horse has not been worked properly and is out of shape, a trainer has to be experienced, calm and soft enough to meet the horse half-way and help him understand, not become rough because the horse is not bringing the expected results!
OK, paying for Pro to tune him up is normal and should make a difference. If trainer gets on and has to get rough…what is it that indicates she’s keeping him tuned up? Unacceptable…and…really…too busy to feed horses she is paid to feed or be sure whoever she pays to feed them, feeds them? REALLY? That’s BS. Your horse is being fed what and when it’s most convenient for them, if they get around to it. That what you are paying for?
The point of having discussions like this is not to preach but to encourage independent thinking in problem solving. Thinking the more you think about the discussion here, the more you realize it’s nit a good situation.
Far as DD loving the trainer…trainer won’t care if she goes, never miss her, she doesn’t even keep the horse tuned up for her now, she doesn’t care… 14 year olds don’t realize that but she does realize who signs the checks for things that aren’t getting done. Handled correctly, you can guide your daughter into realizing this isn’t the best place for her or the horse. Think about letting her arrive at that conclusion on her own. You can do it. Especially if she’s out of Pony Club.
Right now think this is about much more then just trainer being gone and Horse turning butt to daughter. Think you are realizing you aren’t that happy in this barn. Daughter might not be either but is blinded because of misplaced loyalty to a trainer that doesn’t have her best interests at heart and is too busy to feed.
I think we will stay where we are for now. I don’t like to jump into and out of things and while the situation is not perfect, I think there are a lot of plusses and I am not worried about missing 2 days of grain. He gets fed all his hay on a perfect schedule, and it’s always high quality forage. No one around here turns out during or even days after the rain, talked to a friend and found out that is the norm- even at nicer facilities. Unless they have a 100,000.00 drainage system in place for every pasture, the soil here collects and does not drain off, and the land gets extremely slippery and is very dangerous for all the horses. something that people who live in the eastern and mid US would not see, where the soil drains. I think staying and communicating is a good idea and i now have good thoughts to be able to communicate better.
PLUS side is, we don’t have blizzards so horses only have to go through this misery for about 6-8 weeks per year. 
And, FTR I know this trainer cares about our horse and my daughter. It is a busy busy barn and she’s an over achiever/too many plates spinning. A simple reminder to focus on our horse for a while will do the trick for now. And I will definitely have her handle the lunging situation.
Thank you all.
To me, it doesn’t matter. No horse gets to send a hoof in my direction, for any reason. I’ll correct that in a quick, firm and fair way and then go on about my business, assuming the horse did not intend malice. Should he do it a second time in that day or do anything threatening again, he’ll be made very, very sure that I am the Alpha Mare of his world.
It sounds to me like, besides the horse getting set up to be cheeky, he doesn’t respect your kid the way he does the barn staff who can lunge him without a kick or buck sent out toward the handler. In your spot (or really, your trainer’s spot), I’d make my next lesson one that involved teaching your kid to lunge.
I do teach a very competent kid who has a paint mare who has learned she can say “No, I don’t want to do as I’m asked” and has learned (somehow… before she met me) that it’s OK to escalate if the kid (or anyone, at first) did not back down and let her do as she pleased. It has taken some time, care and intelligence to re-educate the mare. But a very big piece of that is making sure that, at some point, it’s the kid who is able to stand up to the mare. Without this, you teach horses to size up each person… and then they aren’t safe kid’s horses anymore.
JMHO.
I don’t think the question about “Why 4 days of grain?” was rude. And, with all due respect, you didn’t answer the question. ETA: You did answer the question later (busy BO), but as others have pointed out, that was the “wrong answer,” in the sense that the horses’ needs come ahead of a person’s time-constraints.
Most people who wish to give their horses less grain do so… but give smaller portions all 7 days of the week. So graining just on days that they work (or for some other reason) is the default, not the norm. At least, that’s what I have seen on both coasts for the 40 or so years I have ridden.do
I get that you feel constrained in your barn and trainer choices. But! Your kid not wanting to leave (while being put a physical risk while handling her own horse) is not a good reason to keep things as they are. Again, that’s just my opinion. Someone, somewhere needs to call a spade a spade and get your horse managed and/or trained better so that he does not over-face his rider/handler.
I did answer later on in the thread …No one here grains 7 days a week, it’s usually 6. The full service barns and trainers even always do 6 But yes, of course 7 or even 6 would be better than four but oh well that’s not the end of the world and the least of my concerns right now
BUT yes, we will make sure our trainer gets with my daughter in a lunge lesson one on one and that we discuss more consistent training for the horse.
Where is " here"? As in " no one does xxxx here"? Just general area, no specifics. No snow, limited turnout, slick clay, Southwest? Maybe inland Cali? Is the hay alfalfa?
Maybe there are people who do xxxx but they aren’t in your network of contacts.
Umm this sounds like a bad situation for horse and humans, in bad weather that prohibits turn out the horses in barns I have been in all get a little “play time” in the arena (all busy show barns, done by barn owner/staff while stalls are cleaned or in between riders) and no horse should be lunged as much as he is being lunged. I don’t know many supplements that are designed to be given only 4 days a week. The horse needs turn out in some form of another, not just training… I realize mud can be a huge problem people can not solve, but maybe the barn/trainer will give him “free time” in the arena instead of lunging if you pay for it. PS my horses will often choose to stand outside of their run in stalls in a blizzard (hay available inside and out)…usually go out for a dang good roll or two during the storm and definitely after…
Really? No idea what to do? Totally a victim of a horse, a kid and a trainer not getting the job done?
Look, if your kid doesn’t know or care enough about her horse’s being mismanaged to the point of be fresh and sour, or aggressive toward her… and if the trainer isn’t right on it, then you have to be the adult in the room. Someone, somewhere needs to take responsibility for the kid’s safety and the horse’s well-being.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You can shoot me now, but that won’t make what I say any less true.
ETA: it’s just frustrating to read someone asking for help and then explaining why taking it would be worse than not. Why waste everyone’s time if “you got this”?
This thread is a great example of one of the classic COTH tropes, where you actually have two parallel lines, the OP’s and Everybody Else’s, flowing along together but neither actually touching or impacting the other. What was it someone said in a different discussion the other day? Something like that the greater the consensus among responses from COTHers, the less likely it becomes that the OP will take the offered advice?
OP, you keep adding additional information, apparently in an attempt to further justify your previous statements, but instead, you’re just making things seem worse and worse.
Not everybody lets a 14 year old influence how to spend 10k+ayear on top of buying them the horse, saddle etc. clothes and all. There are many barns and trainer, most of whom don’t do everything exactly the same. You may not know of everybarn and trainer in your area. Only the ones that go to the same shows you do.
Just think you could do much better
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