Horse turned butt at my daughter and kicked while being lunged.

[Palm_Beach]

@CalmingTea

Thanks for all the thoughts…Yes my daughter does using a lunging line and chain/cavesson properly looped through the horse’s halter. She has a lunge whip but our trainer says it’s not exactly the right kind, as the end of it has two little leather things rather than one flat one. So we are working on replacing that.

Thank you for all the scary stories, in a way it’s good as it solidifies my decision for my daughter to not lunge until her trainer is back and she gets more lessons. Although our trainer just tends to say “get at him” meaning spank him when he’s naughty.

Sadly that does not always address the whole root of the issue which I believe is a combination of factors (including the rain, lack of turnout etc.)

For someone who said they don’t understand why my daughter doesn’t ride the horse, she rides him 5 days per week and keeps her riding short, focused and working to ensure her horse is listening and obedient, not running the show. Three of those five days are also lessons with the trainer, so even more focused. Other than the issue of him balking on trail rides, they’ve never had an issue in the area or during leading or during groundwork other than lunging…thank God. Our trainer rides him an average of 2-3 days per week depending on the season.

Our barn prefers that people lunge before every ride, unless the horse had already been lunged by staff that day. Obviously at least for a while, we won’t be following that “rule” since I am concerned about safety.

As far as NH, it’s sad…of course I’d love that. But again, we are where we are. You can’t just pick up your horse and move every time something seems off. We could move our horse, possibly burn our bridge with our trainer, put our horse through the stress of learning a new environment and routine, start all over and then find that the NH person we picked can’t work with my daughter, or her horse, or there’s something else wrong, etc. …I know all about NH as a dear friend of mine is Parelli level 5 or something like that…but unfortunately it’s not that easy to just change facilities and trainers. This woman has been very good to us, and genuinely cares about my daughter and her horse. I’d rather try to communicate and work through things, than just leave.

BUT i like to come armed with my own thoughts, and you guys have really helped me create a plan for now, and also figure out what to research and think about so I am ready to communicate more clearly.

Just forget about “NH” and “non-NH.” IMHO, there is no such thing. Either you have an effective, humane and SAFE training program or you don’t. I don’t care who came up with the idea or program, or if he wears a cowboy hat, feathers, a baseball cap or a santa clause hat, it only matters that you get results and everyone (including the horse) is happy and healthy.

If you are having problems with your horse, maybe the program he is in, is not the right one for him. The number one most important thing is that your daughter is safe around her horse, and it doesn’t sound like the current program is working. You may need to have a staff member help her lunge the horse (if you must lunge) so she doesn’t get hurt.

You fix behavior problems with training.

[mswillie]

@CalmingTea

Our barn prefers that people lunge before every ride, unless the horse had already been lunged by staff that day. Obviously at least for a while, we won’t be following that “rule” since I am concerned about safety.

Deal breaker for me. I’m not going to lunge my horse daily prior to riding. The trainer doesn’t get to tell me that I have to do something that is detrimental to my horse’s long term soundness.

Also can’t figure out how there are staff available to lunge horses but not enough to feed daily.

But your horse, your money.

[Hopeless]

I am probably going to sound rude. I am speaking up for this poor horse. This is a living breathing animal, not a toy to be taken out and played with at your whim. Horses shouldn’t be kept in little boxes and let out only when the weather is good and they won’t ruin the pasture or when someone has time to take them out.

You can’t keep him in a little box and then take him out and expect him to be calm and in control. He has needs that aren’t being met. He needs to run, kick up his heels, roll, play, and be a horse. It is really unfair to punish him for kicking up his heels when he is being confined and given limited turn out.

I don’t care what is normal in your area, horses need to be turned out. Every day. For several hours. Actually the best thing for the horse’s health is to be turned out with shelter and not stalled. I would never board at a stable that doesn’t turn the horses out everyday. In fact, because it is the best for my horse, I pasture board. I could afford to stall him but it is not for his benefit.

After seeing the Bella video, people need to start standing up for the horses.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

@CalmingTea

and yes we purchased our horse with the understanding that hte trainer would keep him tuned up, so that’s why she rides him, but her rides are very short just ten or 15 minutes and believe it or not it does make a difference. Lately though she has only ridden him twice in the last 3 weeks, and then she got on him and was very rough with him because he was a little out of tune and not where he should have been, but she would not have had to be rough with him, if he had been tuned up 3 times per week the way she was supposed to do.

Staying at this barn is a death sentence for your daughter or the horse. You need to leave.

My gelding is the sweetest creature alive. I could always longe him in the round pen without a line; used a line in an arena. Always a helmet. One day I was “free” longeing him without a line; I asked him (with a shake of the lead rope I had in my hand) to move forward a bit, and he took off, galloping, with a slight buck/kick out in my direction. Stopped that immediately and will never do it again. Always a line now and proper set up. I don’t care if it was “playing,” it could get someone killed.

[shiloh]

Dear God - do not “spank” him. Spanking means many things to many people but most of them involve hitting the horse. This is not the way to handle this situation. He had some pent-up energy which contributed to him testing the limits of “respect.” One of my trainers used to say if a horse had enough energy to misbehave they had enough energy to go to work - and go to work they did. They were promptly sent forward at a working gait - canter or trot, your choice - but at a brisk tempo and no messing around. This they were compelled to do until the misbehavior stopped or they showed they were more receptive to listening.

My last horse decided to be a pissy bitch to my trainer one day and man, did he get the surprise of his life when she put his happy butt to WORK. All forward, medium working gaits with some lengthening thrown in. If he could have said “Uncle” he would have. He never ever pulled that again with her.

Also, another vote for more turnout. And how about some good long trail rides - not only to brighten up and change the scenery but to make him think and work.

[Scribbler]

It’s always interesting to hear how other people relate to their horses. I have never been in a horse situation, even hanging around full board barns, where owners are as passive in relation to their horses as the OP describes. I find it hard to imagine a rider that doesn’t know how to hang a water bucket in a stall, or doesn’t know that this is absolutely necessary even if the paid groom skives off and doesn’t do the job.

This barn sounds like some extreme of learned helplessness on the part of the clients.

I’ve been in self board my whole life, starting as a 14 year old in a low-cost backyard situation down the street where us five teen girls did all the ordering of hay and bedding, booked farrier and vets, rode without adult supervision, and really mostly did not do that badly: no one got injured, and the horses most stayed very sound. When people talk about horse ownership building character and responsibility, that’s what I think of: the kid taking on the job of being reliable, informed, and compassionate towards the horse.

I’m not sure what the payoff is in the Learned Helplessness Barn: I assume that the horse is prepped to go to shows with the riders as passengers. It’s always interesting that the more one pays for horse care, in general the less one gets to ride! I logged 6 and 8 hour days out with my horse as a teen, and figured out how to train her to do things on my own, and had a very good time. But we were certainly on no show circuit.

Anyhow, if you have turned over every aspect of horse care to an all-controlling trainer, I don’t even know what the point of asking for training advice on a forum would be, because if we give advice that is different from what trainer says, you’ll never be allowed to do it.

I would want to see the kick before I decided what to do about it. If the horse was out on 20 feet on longe line, and bucked up, and the back end just kind of tended in a little, I’d say high spirits. If my horse sets up bucking on the longe, I know she is overdue for turnout, and I go let her rip at liberty.

If the horse however made any move that seemed like he was actually threatening, it would be a Big Deal and I would correct it on the spot with the degree of force that particular horse required.

[propspony]

Wow. I’m really glad I don’t board at that barn. Except… I wouldn’t board at that barn…

It’s not about the turnout. I live in a part of the country where we don’t have pasture turnout, what it IS about is that the horses aren’t getting the care they should be.

So the hay is great. Big deal. You are at a barn where it takes “too much time” to dump a pre-loaded baggie of grain and supplements into a feed tub while you’re tossing them a flake of hay.

If there isn’t enough time for them to take an additional 10 seconds to open a ziplock, where are they going to find the time to walk your horse if it colics? Or notice if his waterer is broken or dirty. If there isn’t enough time to open a ziplock baggie, then I’m guessing there also isn’t enough time to clean water buckets or waterers.

You’re paying a trainer to ride your horses 3-4 times a week, and she isn’t doing it. Because she isn’t doing it, she had to “get aggressive” towards your horse. Your horse got punished because your trainer isn’t doing her job.

That isn’t even a little fair to your horse, and it definitely isn’t fair to you. Did she reduce your training bill because she didn’t ride your horse? Would it be ok, if the garbage men didn’t take your garbage away a few times a month because they “got busy?”

I’m not even going to get into the lunging rule. That’s just odd.

If the barn is too busy to take care of little things like that, then it’s not managed well, and there are many other things falling by the way-side that aren’t being mentioned.

You’ll do what you do, but I probably wouldn’t have my horse there.

[mvp]

@findeight

Not everybody lets a 14 year old influence how to spend 10k+ayear on top of buying them the horse, saddle etc. clothes and all. There are many barns and trainer, most of whom don’t do everything exactly the same. You may not know of everybarn and trainer in your area. Only the ones that go to the same shows you do.

Just think you could do much better

That was so much more diplomatic than what I wrote but, I think, echoing the same sentiment. Thank you, findeight. I appreciate it.

[Palm_Beach]

Hopefully the $10k a year is being spent because the 14 yo is participating in a healthy recreational activity, having positive social interactions with kids her age, learning something about horses, and getting up early enough that she is not out late at night. Whether or not the training program is the 'best" is not as important. The daughter may be vested enough in her relationships with her trainer, the other riders, etc that it would be upsetting to make her switch barns. OP does not appear to be dissatisfied with the condition of the horse, other than his energy, so maybe focus on helping her make the best of her situation.

[findeight]

@Hopeless

I

I don’t care what is normal in your area, horses need to be turned out. Every day. For several hours. Actually the best thing for the horse’s health is to be turned out with shelter and not stalled. I would never board at a stable that doesn’t turn the horses out everyday. In fact, because it is the best for my horse, I pasture board. I could afford to stall him but it is not for his benefit.

After seeing the Bella video, people need to start standing up for the horses.

Do you think it’s fair to judge everybody based on an extreme abuse example and tell them they should simply not own a horse if there is no turnout available? That does condemn some barns in urban areas, the arid southwest, rainy northwest, places with severe winters… and Europe/Asia. It’s not helpful in circumstances beyond their control to offer the solution to their problem as " you shouldn’t own horses".

There are work arounds that can be suggested to help posters in such situations but it has to guide them to learning more and making their own decision. Nobody argues they don’t do better with lots of turnout but sometimes it’s just not there. You tell them they just don’t deserve to own horses, you slam the door in their faces and they feel rebuffed, get defensive and stop seeking to learn. Hope nothing happens in your life forcing you to either adapt to different horsekeeping options or just give up your horses.

[Hopeless]

@findeight

Do you think it’s fair to judge everybody based on an extreme abuse example and tell them they should simply not own a horse if there is no turnout available? That does condemn some barns in urban areas, the arid southwest, rainy northwest, places with severe winters… and Europe/Asia. It’s not helpful in circumstances beyond their control to offer the solution to their problem as " you shouldn’t own horses".

There are work arounds that can be suggested to help posters in such situations but it has to guide them to learning more and making their own decision. Nobody argues they don’t do better with lots of turnout but sometimes it’s just not there. You tell them they just don’t deserve to own horses, you slam the door in their faces and they feel rebuffed, get defensive and stop seeking to learn. Hope nothing happens in your life forcing you to either adapt to different horsekeeping options or just give up your horses.

I live in a very urban area, a very large city in the Midwest, and keep my horse at a barn on pasture board 30 - 40 min away (depending on traffic). Which right now means a small dry (mud) lot. He will be on grass when we get some during the day and on the dry lot at night. This morning it is raining. My horse has shelter and he is wearing a blanket, which he probably doesn’t need, and he is fine.

I don’t see any area that you mentioned that would have 0 turn out. I don’t mean that all horses need to be on grass or acres and acres of land, but yes turned out. I know people in Canada and Alaska, their horses are turned out year around some are stalled at night, but turned out during the day. I have contact with people in Europe, and their horses have turn out. Why would being in an arid area mean you couldn’t turn out? I have seen a lot of places in arid areas have lovely open barns with turnout. Horses are not made of sugar, they can be turned out when it is wet out also.

I don’t see where I said that she shouldn’t own horses. Although when I first moved into the area and I could not find a barn with turn out, I sold my horse. I would not do that to her. I am kicking myself now because I just didn’t know where to look, but I did the best I could with what I knew at the time.

Everything about a horse is made to function with movement. We know that being stalled stresses horses out. Horse digestion and circulation require movement to work best. Nothing about being stalled is for the benefit of the horse. I love horses and go nuts without one in my life, but even so, my needs shouldn’t out weight the needs of my horse either.

[findeight]

My experiences and the experiences of my aquaintances are different then yours. Kept my own with no turnout and both seen barns in Europe with no turnout and many, many WBs passing through my long time barn stepping right off the plane and out of quarantine who never saw turnout in their lives up until then.

Unless you are counting living in a 12x16 pipe corral with a shelter on one end turnout, as is the norm in the SW, lots of posters on here don’t have itI didn’t the first 5 years I owned and kept privately in residential So Cal. Didn’t have an arena either, did have trails so we just rode them…up the hills on the fire roads.

The trick is adapting to it if you are actually stuck with it. In OPs case on this thread, don’t think she is stuck with it, think she needs to look learn more and look harder.

[China_Doll]

@CalmingTea

I am not sure what you’re getting at and your question comes off as strange, and rude…

Around here it’s pretty standard to give performance horses a little grain as a vehicle for supplements, as well as a little nutritional supplement as well. four days per week b/c that’s when they have staff to do it. Over-graining is not healthy so I am glad it’s a small amount.

It is odd to not have a horse fed the same rations 7 days a week so I thought the same question. He should get supplements every day. Why can’t horses go outside when it is raining? I could see if it was storming but they love the rain. Also when lunging the horse should be far enough away that it could not kick someone.

[meupatdoes]

@CalmingTea

Our barn prefers that people lunge before every ride, unless the horse had already been lunged by staff that day. Obviously at least for a while, we won’t be following that “rule” since I am concerned about safet

This is the most risiculous rule I’ve ever heard.

[Tory]

My question for the OP is do you want your daughter to be a horse person or a rider that gets ribbons at shows?

I am fully aware that both can be accomplished, but not if the trainer likes them uneducated.

I have owned and cared for my horses for over 40 years. I have and still do hire trainers to coach me on my riding and training of my horses. BUT I do not just fully turn over the care of my horse to someone because that is their program.

I look at my horses as the living, breathing, thinking and feeling animals that they are. What has worked for one of my horses does not necessarily work for the other. I am currently training the third generation of mares that I have owned and all three of these ladies have had different personalities.

Find a trainer that looks at your daughter and her horse as the individuals that they are. At the end of the day, I’m sure both will be happier, safer and smarter for it.

[S1969]

@CalmingTea

Meanwhile back at the barn, the supplements issue is that the BO is too busy to do it on Tuesday and Thursday and Sunday. So she has the assistant do it on M/W/F/Sat…but if I ask, have you grained the horses? SHe will say “I will get to it”…

This is bizarre. The barn owner is the only one that feeds? And she only feeds some days? Usually, a big, busy barn has staff that do these things, and does them every day…because, well, horses eat every day. And feeding supplements only sometimes might be a total waste.

Lots of reasons I’d be shopping around, at this point. Lunging before every ride - is just weird. The only time I ever lunged before every ride was when restarting an ex-broodmare TB that hadn’t been ridden in a decade. I wasn’t going to get on her until I knew she was listening. But once she proved herself not to need it - there was no point in lunging her. It was just busy work and served no specific purpose.

No turnout - is unfortunate. Replacing turnout with lunging - is a tough substitute. Hard on their body and minds.

There has to be other options, or at least other ways to manage the situation at this barn.