Horse Very Reactive to Tractors, Excavators, Skid steers, etc

[RhythmNCruise]

I agree. One of the reasons I think I’m so determined to help him is because I know what it’s like to be anxious and have anxiety. I wish I could just explain to him that everything is fine and he has no reason to worry about those silly machines. And maybe slip him some of my Lexapro, LOL.

I am eagerly awaiting the Ulcergard delivery today. I plan to give him a whole tube for the next seven days at least. I honestly cannot afford more than that right now. If the Ulcergard appears to be helping, I may get more and just do the 1/4 tube a day after he’s had seven days of full tubes. Better than nothing, I guess.

[endlessclimb]

Check out the information on esomeprazole. There’s a thread on here. WAAAYYYY cheaper.

[trubandloki]

I think there is a lot of good advice here already.

The other thing you might want to add to what you are already thinking of doing is truly looking at all aspects of his life in these various places.
It sounds like he was not reactive at home.
Very reactive at barn one
Not reactive at barn two
Very reactive at barn three

Make some lists. Include things like turn out schedule, what kind of hay, how much hay, how is the hay fed, what kind of grain (brand and product), how much grain.

[RhythmNCruise]

Oh, I have. The difference between barn #1 and barn #2 is that a lot of things got straightened out at barn #1 before moving to barn #2. The feeding situation was not ideal at barn #1. That got semi-fixed, but the BO never fed enough hay for my liking, and my horse was in group turn-out (24/7) and often didn’t get to finish his feed that included necessary supplements. That changed at barn #2 where he was still on basically 24/7 turn-out (except when it was hellishly hot…and he had hay available pretty much free-choice in the stall and was fine with being in out of the heat and bugs (he has bug allergies and anhidrosis to add to the fun).

Barn #2 became self-care toward the end, and the only thing that changed for him was I stopped the ration balancer and replaced it with just a tiny bit of TC Sr. to mix his forage balancer and other supplements (he didn’t need forage balancer and ration balancer…overkill). He also started the Equioxx at barn #2.

The hay has been the same across all three barns. Same source and same type. I do feed more since taking over in self-care (barn #3 is self-care as well). The only change of feed at barn #3 is I took him off TC Sr. and replaced that with timothy pellets. He gets no soy, no MSM, no grain, no alfalfa. He eats timothy pellets, KIS Trace, extra magnesium, salt, a probiotic, and CocoSun oil plus 20ish pounds of hay a day when pasture is dormant (now decreasing as pasture is filling in). He’s out 24/7 with access to a nice shelter when he chooses. He has his pasture mate BFF and two buddies that share a fence line.

Current barn’s set-up is nearly identical to what he had at my place and I am 100% in charge of his care again. The machinery is the only trigger here, and that seems to be something he developed after leaving my farm (somewhere between boarding #1 and boarding #2).

Here’s something I wonder. Tell me I’m crazy if this seems way too woo-woo. At my place, he saw both of his best friends (10 years together since he was a yearling) buried by big machinery in the pasture. He dealt with the first okay because he still had the second gelding with him. He lost his sh*t when his last remaining buddy died and was buried.

Moved to barn #1 and while there, two horses died and were buried on the property during the two years we were there (one within weeks of moving him there).

No horses died/were buried at barn #2, but there was the deconstruction of the covered arena that he watched and was a little anxious about.

We get to our current barn, and about a month and a half in, two horses die during the same week and are buried in sight of my horse by the excavator.

I mean. Maybe he’s not smart enough to make the connections…but it seems like he’s witnessed a lot of dead horses being shoved around and buried by big machinery. Since December 2017, he’s seen six dead horses be “eaten” by heavy machinery.

Could that be fueling his anxiety? Or am I giving him way too much credit?

ETA: Oh, and his dam died before he was properly weaned, so I also wonder if he may have seen her buried. I’m not trying to “Black Beauty” this situation up, but I wonder if he’s dealt with losing and seeing machinery bury more horses (especially ones he’s close to) than the average horse.

[Posting_Trot]

I don’t think it’s too woo-woo, especially given how many horses/buddies he’s seen be buried by big machinery. Horses are very tuned into their herd-mates and adept at learning patterns. Those two things together might make him associate the big machines (either the machines themselves or the sounds they make) with danger.

Good luck with your horse. He’s lucky to have you be so committed to helping him.

[rockymouse]

OP, I’m woo-woo enough to think that he may have an association between horse eating machinery and his departed friends. I think doing what you did on your most recent ride would be helpful.

I agree that that the moving around and the stress of the machinery and so on may have resulted in ulcers. My older gelding who lives the life of Riley, had a good coat and wasn’t fussy about his flanks, still ended up with ulcers.

Regarding cost, here’s a very informative thread on treating ulcers with a drug that is a “cousin” (that’s my simpleton explanation) to the drug omeprazole, which is used in Ulcerguard. It involves a schedule of three pills of Nexium a day over the course of several weeks, tapered off. Not vet advice - but it sure is cheaper than Ulcerguard and many posters share their positive anecdotal accounts of using it. You might give it a read.

Esomeprazole (Nexium) for equine ulcers

Ran across someone asking about esomeprazole for equine ulcers on FB awhile ago, and I went poking around to find this paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232679844_Preliminary_Study_of_the_Gastric_Acidity_in_Thoroughbred_Horses_at_Rest_after_Enteral_Administration_of_Esomeprazole_Magnesium_Nexium Dove was cribbing quite a lot after the move and Pigs is just prone, so I thought I’d try it. Nexium is ~$20 for 42 20 mg capsules on Amazon. I’ve been giving 3 capsules (60 mg) a day t…

[OverandOnward]

True enough about an association with machines.

The amazing thing about horses is that they do learn and associate new things, and it is likely possible that the horse can un-learn any previous association. Not that it will be completely gone. But he can form a new one for the machines he is dealing with now. Sounds like OP is already working on that.

I have a dog that has a few negative associations that doubtless comes from an earlier life, as I didn’t know him until he was about 6 months old. When they come up, we have to re-learn good coping behavior. He does pick up on it fairly quickly.

But there are long periods where these triggers are not present. After these pauses, whenever the triggers come up in a new environment, we seem to be back to square one. Although he does build a new more positive response with help.

[Rackonteur]

@OverandOnward

I suspect that it is highly uncomfortable to them, even physically painful, just as it is to us.

This.

[Scribbler]

@RhythmNCruise

Oh, I have. The difference between barn #1 and barn #2 is that a lot of things got straightened out at barn #1 before moving to barn #2. The feeding situation was not ideal at barn #1. That got semi-fixed, but the BO never fed enough hay for my liking, and my horse was in group turn-out (24/7) and often didn’t get to finish his feed that included necessary supplements. That changed at barn #2 where he was still on basically 24/7 turn-out (except when it was hellishly hot…and he had hay available pretty much free-choice in the stall and was fine with being in out of the heat and bugs (he has bug allergies and anhidrosis to add to the fun).

Barn #2 became self-care toward the end, and the only thing that changed for him was I stopped the ration balancer and replaced it with just a tiny bit of TC Sr. to mix his forage balancer and other supplements (he didn’t need forage balancer and ration balancer…overkill). He also started the Equioxx at barn #2.

The hay has been the same across all three barns. Same source and same type. I do feed more since taking over in self-care (barn #3 is self-care as well). The only change of feed at barn #3 is I took him off TC Sr. and replaced that with timothy pellets. He gets no soy, no MSM, no grain, no alfalfa. He eats timothy pellets, KIS Trace, extra magnesium, salt, a probiotic, and CocoSun oil plus 20ish pounds of hay a day when pasture is dormant (now decreasing as pasture is filling in). He’s out 24/7 with access to a nice shelter when he chooses. He has his pasture mate BFF and two buddies that share a fence line.

Current barn’s set-up is nearly identical to what he had at my place and I am 100% in charge of his care again. The machinery is the only trigger here, and that seems to be something he developed after leaving my farm (somewhere between boarding #1 and boarding #2).

Here’s something I wonder. Tell me I’m crazy if this seems way too woo-woo. At my place, he saw both of his best friends (10 years together since he was a yearling) buried by big machinery in the pasture. He dealt with the first okay because he still had the second gelding with him. He lost his sh*t when his last remaining buddy died and was buried.

Moved to barn #1 and while there, two horses died and were buried on the property during the two years we were there (one within weeks of moving him there).

No horses died/were buried at barn #2, but there was the deconstruction of the covered arena that he watched and was a little anxious about.

We get to our current barn, and about a month and a half in, two horses die during the same week and are buried in sight of my horse by the excavator.

I mean. Maybe he’s not smart enough to make the connections…but it seems like he’s witnessed a lot of dead horses being shoved around and buried by big machinery. Since December 2017, he’s seen six dead horses be “eaten” by heavy machinery.

Could that be fueling his anxiety? Or am I giving him way too much credit?

ETA: Oh, and his dam died before he was properly weaned, so I also wonder if he may have seen her buried. I’m not trying to “Black Beauty” this situation up, but I wonder if he’s dealt with losing and seeing machinery bury more horses (especially ones he’s close to) than the average horse.

Oh of course a horse can make that association. They are completely able to associate bad experiences with stimuli. I was in fact wondering if he’d had a bad spook from machinery that you weren’t aware of, like a tractor took out a fence or a tree fell or he somehow had a scare

The burials makes total sense.

Horses can learn to associate tractors with feeding time if they get hay dragged out to a field. They learn the noises of vehicle engines of people that matter to them. My horse hears her people’s vehicles when they turn off the main road but are still hidden and runs out to her paddock to greet us. Absolutely they could have a negative reaction too

[endlessclimb]

I’m firmly anti-woo but this has happened enough times to him, witnessing excavators and equipment “be mean” to horses if nothing else, that I can totally see that this could possibly be part of it. Poor guy.

You’re doing a great job getting the process started where he is making new associations. I would request in the future that he be out of eye-shot if a horse is being buried.

[RhythmNCruise]

I’m glad to know my theory about his experience with the machinery isn’t too out there. It’s something I’ve thought about so many times.

Today has been a great day so far! The machine we went up to yesterday was working. It wasn’t near my guy’s barn/pasture, but he could still see and hear it and the dump trucks that were coming and going bringing the dirt that the machine was moving and smoothing. He’d look over there every once in a while just kind of curious, but it’d last about three seconds and he’d ignore it. He was very relaxed…very much his normal self. I tacked up and rode. Good as gold. We kept to the back of the farm (which is where all the fun places to ride are anyway) for the most part, but I did get him to go up to the area where the machine was. It was not moving when we rode near(ish) to it, but it was running. He was wary, but didn’t do any of his stopping, backing, spinning stuff. I mean, he did stop and look, but I just urged him gently and we got where we needed to be without any drama about the machine.

We had some washrack drama in the main barn (not his little run-in barn). He’s always been claustrophobic and has never enjoyed indoor washracks. I needed to rinse him off (wound up giving a quick bath with shampoo) and figured the indoor washrack was out of sight of the machine, so better. We got it done, but he wasn’t thrilled. He usually loves baths, but a dump truck came when we were in the washrack and he could see it and hear it and…well, there was a lot of dancing, pawing, throwing of the head (like…“I’m going to bust these cross-ties down and run away” throwing of the head) and other histrionics. I just concentrated on keeping him off the hose (nearly impossible, lol) and him not hurting himself being goofy. We got it done, and as soon as the final rinse was done and the dump truck was on its way out, he quieted down and stood very well for me to scrape him off. Took him out the front of the barn and he immediately grazed, which was a good sign. The mean machine started working and moving then, and he definitely gave it the bug-eyed stare and a snort and kind of a “Can we get out of here?” attempt to leave. I said no, and eventually he said okay and went back to grazing. At one point I realized I was trying to haul his face up off the ground to head back to his barn and he was like…no…just another couple more bites.

This is a huge improvement. I don’t know if the tube of Ulcergard is to thank, but I just got the seven tubes I ordered and plan to give him one tonight before his dinner and one every day after that until they are gone. I’ll see how he does after that.

I could just tell he was going to be better today. Much more accepting of things. Even rode right past the neighbor’s cow without a care in the world. That’s definitely progress, LOL!

I got him some Outlast cookies too. And I’ve ordered a pouch for my saddle horn. I plan to pack it with Outlast cookies to reward him whenever he’s near a machine.

Thanks guys! It’s good to feel like I’m helping him. I think some of the people at this barn think he’s a nutcase and I’m crazy for even riding him. But he’s a good boy! He really is! When he’s himself, he’s as calm as they come. We’re talking, cantering bareback with halter and lead. He’s just working through some issues right now. Bless him.

[rulex]

I don’t think that’s too woo woo. He’s seen it enough to make associations. A friend of mine keeps 2 at home. The retired one is never happy to see his buddy leave in the trailer to go on an outing, but it’s manageable. This past winter riding horse was boarded out and when the trailer came home empty, retired horse really lost it. It was temporary as there was already a plan to bring over a temporary friend. But I just thought it was so interesting that the empty trailer coming home was more concerning than the other horse initially leaving.

[RhythmNCruise]

Okay, guys, is it possible that the Ulcergard is making such a huge difference? He’s like…Eeyore calm. Like…I haven’t seen him this calm since we left my farm. He’s downright sluggish…which was his MO pretty much since I got him as a yearling. Never in a hurry. Never too worried about anything. When I started him under saddle I just climbed on him in a 3-acre pasture and he was like…“Okaaay. Whatever, mom.” (Eeyore voice, LOL) He’s THAT laid back.

We rode to the scary machine. It was parked and not running. He gave it the usual look, but got over it quickly and literally was like “Okay, let’s go to the darn thing and get this part over with.” He rubbed his nose all over the thing, probably saying “I’m touching it. Get off now, I’m touching it, Mom!” (I did get off. Loosened the girth. Praise.)

I know that ritual helps, but it’s not just that he’ll approach the machine. It’s that he’s soooo mellow overall.

Rinsed him off on the outdoor washrack afterward (after I clipped the Cocker Spaniel fur off of his legs…he snoozes while I do that, loves it), and he stood like a champ. No worries. Even left him standing there while I ran back into the barn for a scraper. No worries. Normal day in Milton World.

So…assuming the Ulcergard is what’s helping so much, I’m thinking about dropping him to half a tube a day to see if I notice any difference in him. If he stays this chill, I’ll let him stay at half a tube for the next couple of tubes and then maybe try to back him down to a quarter tube. If that works, then I may get him a few more tubes to do at the lower dosage, just so I can keep him on it a little longer. I know there are other meds and ways to do this cheaper, but I’m just scared to try anything different right now given how good this seems to be working.

Or am I totally off-base and it couldn’t possibly be the Ulcergard making such a vast improvement after only three days/tubes?

[Scribbler]

@RhythmNCruise

Okay, guys, is it possible that the Ulcergard is making such a huge difference? He’s like…Eeyore calm. Like…I haven’t seen him this calm since we left my farm. He’s downright sluggish…which was his MO pretty much since I got him as a yearling. Never in a hurry. Never too worried about anything. When I started him under saddle I just climbed on him in a 3-acre pasture and he was like…“Okaaay. Whatever, mom.” (Eeyore voice, LOL) He’s THAT laid back.

We rode to the scary machine. It was parked and not running. He gave it the usual look, but got over it quickly and literally was like “Okay, let’s go to the darn thing and get this part over with.” He rubbed his nose all over the thing, probably saying “I’m touching it. Get off now, I’m touching it, Mom!” (I did get off. Loosened the girth. Praise.)

I know that ritual helps, but it’s not just that he’ll approach the machine. It’s that he’s soooo mellow overall.

Rinsed him off on the outdoor washrack afterward (after I clipped the Cocker Spaniel fur off of his legs…he snoozes while I do that, loves it), and he stood like a champ. No worries. Even left him standing there while I ran back into the barn for a scraper. No worries. Normal day in Milton World.

So…assuming the Ulcergard is what’s helping so much, I’m thinking about dropping him to half a tube a day to see if I notice any difference in him. If he stays this chill, I’ll let him stay at half a tube for the next couple of tubes and then maybe try to back him down to a quarter tube. If that works, then I may get him a few more tubes to do at the lower dosage, just so I can keep him on it a little longer. I know there are other meds and ways to do this cheaper, but I’m just scared to try anything different right now given how good this seems to be working.

Or am I totally off-base and it couldn’t possibly be the Ulcergard making such a vast improvement after only three days/tubes?

Yes 3 days is about what it takes to start healing the ulcers. I had my mare on the 4 weeks of Gastrogard and she was noticeably less pissy for saddling and riding within the first week.

Random discomfort whether it’s ouchy feet or gut pain or twinges of arthritis can make some horses spooky because they are anxious about the pain. Add gut pain to the horse eating bull dozers that legitimately disappeared your friends and you could easily conclude “I’m next. I’m in pain and not at my best and the Thing will catch and eat me.”

[RhythmNCruise]

Yes! That’s exactly what I think his “reasoning” (as much as a horse can reason) is.
I know that when he first started being super reactive to things he’d never cared about before (like, stopping, spinning, trying to bolt away) was when his back was sore due to poor saddle fit and incorrect hoof angles (exacerbating the already sore back). It’s like he felt vulnerable all of a sudden and was super vigilant about protecting himself from potential threats. It was such a strange thing because he was always so unconcerned even as a young, green horse.

His nemesis (the skid steer) was being unloaded at the barn when I was driving out. I can’t imagine he can tell the difference between it and the thing we have been walking up to and dismounting at for the past couple of days. Heck, I wasn’t even sure. The skid steer is smaller and less scary looking to me, but what do I know about horse-eating machines? Clearly nothing. I’m but a foolish two-legged feed dispenser and stall maid. LOL.

Tomorrow it’s supposed to rain all day (we need it), so I doubt the machines will be in action. He’s getting his footsies trimmed, and otherwise it’ll be a chill day for him. Hopefully I can ride Saturday and Sunday. Then it’s back to work. Booo. I’ve enjoyed my spring break week. But I guess I have to pay for all of this Ulcergard, LOL.

[Scribbler]

I rode an older mare who was superb in the arena and had lots of trail miles and wasn’t inherently spooky. Up in the back country she was a real trooper. But on our local barn trail system she got spooky and it correlated with her having even just one ouch step on the gravel. When I got her front boots, the spooks pretty much disappeared. That was very interesting.

My main mare just balks or gets angry or bites of she’s in discomfort. Which is more obvious.

[Djones]

I wonder if one of those machines emitted a high pitched squeal or such that he can hear and we humans can’t? Is that a thing like it is with dogs? And that’s an association he has?

I am remembering some neighbors having a screaming argument near a field we lease. Two horses and the donkey were fine, Chip was rearing and wheeling in terror. I mean, I could hear it too but he was super-reactive. He’s never done anything like before or since.

Glad the tummy meds are helping!

[RhythmNCruise]

He’s actually gotten to the point where he doesn’t mind hearing them. Seeing them is what gets him. That said, after that first night with the horrible skid steer scare, he was VERY triggered by the backing up “beep-beep-beep” that it and pretty much all the heavy equipment and dump trucks do. He could be out of sight of the equipment, but he’d hear that beeping and lose his mind.

He no longer reacts to it now. It’s a pretty common sound on the farm, so he’s gotten used to it. Just like he’s gotten used to the cow mooing and the donkey braying. Neither of those had he heard before moving to this farm, and that first night both of those plus the skid steer were all going strong. He was pretty sure I’d moved him to hell.

[rulex]

@RhythmNCruise

Okay, guys, is it possible that the Ulcergard is making such a huge difference?

Yes, think of the ulcers as many many rabbits. If ulcers were pain and that’s now gone, you just reset your rabbit count to zero.

[RhythmNCruise]

Gosh, I almost want to cry thinking about that. My poor boy. I should have known better and done this sooner.

I’m contemplating biting the bullet and getting the 20-tube pack from Valley Vet, and continuing to do a whole tube until about the last six, then tapering to a half and then a quarter before stopping. Yes? Worth it?