Horse with mean buck: advice, suggestions, (maybe sympathy?)

[BrownMareDon_tCare]

I have a six year old Dutch gelding (who I have mentioned in past posts regarding his bucking). I thought we had it under control and that it was no longer a front of the mind issue (though I realize it will always be part of his ‘repertoire’). He has been perfect for the last six months and I was just getting comfortable when he bucked me off in our lesson this morning. Twice. Both times were jumping: first time we were a little deep to the in of a line and he bucked twice and then dropped a shoulder. The second was after jumping a line (no deep distances this time, height only about 2’3"), cantering away, he just bucked and dropped a shoulder. We had already jumped two lines and taken a break so the jumps after which he bucked were not the first he had jumped today.

Previously he would buck when he was upset about something: hitting a rail, tripping, spook into a buck, if the rider kicked him too hard. Today, there was no discernible reason that either my trainer or I could find. So I am coming to you all for your collective thoughts.

He has been at the same farm and in the same program for three years, gets overnight turnout with a buddy, is in a training program where he is ridden six days a week (three by me, three by trainer). No recent change to feed/ grain type or amount. In September, we had him gone over by our lameness vet just as a check up and he was injected where recommended. About a year ago he was scoped and the vet found some small ulcers (that the vet thought were minor and mentioned he would be surprised if those were causing him issues) so we did a gastrogard course and he has been maintained on Succeed. Also checked him for gelding scars.

Same saddle I have had on him for two years, I have been told it fits correctly.

It seems (and I accept I may get some flaming for this) to be attitude based. Not in the sense that he comes out of the stall planning to get rid of me, but more that when he gets ticked off, he has learned that he can get me off and now when something makes me him mad, it’s his go-to. Otherwise, he is generally a lazy horse with not much work ethic.

Trainer is older and really cannot take the chance of getting injured by my horse (and I would not be able to live with myself if something happened to her while on him!); she really wants me to ride through it to teach the horse that he can’t get away with it. All well and good but I am a mid forties amateur who doesn’t bounce the way I used to. And I am just not able to consistently ride him through it (the scorecard reads something like horse: 12, rider: 2).

I am really frustrated and looking for thoughts and suggestions on where to go from here. I really don’t want to spend another winter scared to ride my horse. And just to make it difficult, I don’t really want to get rid of him: I have a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this horse, when he is good he is really, really good and we have had some pretty good successes.

[Smthn_Like_Olivia]

Who told you saddle fits correctly? Has it been adjusted in the 2 years you’ve been riding in it? I bought a custom made saddle in September of last year for my horse and had to have it reflocked this past summer to adjust the fit. I would have a reputable fitter out to have it checked just in case.

[Daventry]

I know the OP knows this already based on her past posts, but horses often have a reason for misbehaving. More often than not, it is pain related, i.e. ill-fitting saddle, ulcers, hock pain, etc. Because they cannot speak, they have to find other ways to communicate with us. Can it also end up being a learned behavior discovered by a crafty and lazy horse? Of course.

It was mentioned that the horse is being ridden three times a week by the trainer. Is the horse also bucking the trainer off or does he only buck with the owner? If it is only happening with the owner, it sounds like this may have turned into a behavioral problem, i.e. sensitive pro-ride who cannot handle ammy mistakes, etc. If the bucking happens with the trainer as well, unless the OP is willing to invest money to investigate the root cause, I would call it quits on this partnership or someone is going to get seriously injured. Really, how much longer is the OP willing to let this go on? How many more times is the OP willing to get dumped in the sand?

Everyone else is already going to throw their opinion into the mix so I’m not going to be one more broken record, but I want you to consider the following:

You mentioned that you don’t want to get rid of him because you have a lot of blood, sweat and tears into this horse. But what if he bucks you off and you break your back, your hip, your pelvis, suffer a brain injury? Will it have been worth it?

To put it in another way, if you have a friend who is in an abusive marriage and her husband beats her, but then he got it under control and stopped for six months. Your friend let her guard down and became vulnerable and he starts beating her again. The beatings used to occur only when he got upset, now they seem to occur for no reason. Your friend’s husband needs help and there is no way for her to fix his issues on her own. She’s scared of her husband but she doesn’t want to leave him because she has a lot of blood, sweat and tears invested in the marriage and when he is good, he is really, really good and they have had some pretty good times. Would your advice to her be to stay in the marriage and risk psychological damage and injury? Or would your advice be to end it, move on, take some time to find the perfect partner who is kind and forgiving and enjoy your time together?

I get that this is a crazy analogy, but the last paragraph of your initial post is no different than the excuses a battered spouse makes.

[GraceLikeRain]

What was done to determine that joints needed to be injected?

Any back x rays done?

How are his feet? Heel pain can cause erradic behavior.

[Pennywell_Bay]

You have my sympathy.

I agree with posters saying to have a vet do a thorough exam. After that, I do need to say that we are currently free leasing a pony who has a buck. (that is why is is a free lease. when he is good he wins at WEC, when he is bad he can unseat the best pro).

He gets regular chiro, this spring we a re- Xraying hocks (he’s 15). However, as of last year- we did xrays etc and found nothing. Hocks, spine, cervical, feet. Vet has known him all his life and really believes his is behavior. We still have him on 24/7 turn out most days, hay, ration balancer (grain makes him obese and nuts).

Now- the difference is he never just lets loose and we go “Well that is a shock”. We can tell 100% on a day that he may do it. He is up, agitated and just ornery. Usually a quick spin on the lunge will keep it at bay on those days. It could be pain- he loosens up etc but we haven’t found it yet.

Why is he still here, you may ask. My kid had the option to send him back after he dumped her (after a year of not exhibiting the behavior). He’s taught her a ton (he’s good 99%). His good outweighs his bad. If he were dangerous I’d send him back (you can argue any buck is dangerous, I know). His 99% good days have let her jump higher and be braver because he is a jumping machine.

He’s taught her how to ask correctly in dressage (he has formal training). He’s taken her cross country.

anddddd he’s taught her to ride half hearted dolphin buck. And yeah- to fall off and get back on. So he’s got her off 2ce in 1.5 years with serious bucks but I have to say- he’s made her pretty fearless. The last time I was 100% ready to send him back and never let her ride him again. She popped back up. It took me about 3 days until I let her get back on him- I was seething.

Good luck in working with him. Our guy gets regular work done and we really monitor daily life. Maybe this spring we’ll find something (but for the last 6 months he has been without incident).

Behavior? Pain?

[Victorious]

If he really does check out pain-wise(as in, there is no discernible cause of pain for him), then I would suggest finding a local catch rider to ride him a few times for your trainer. See how he behaves with him/her. If he is the same…I would dig deeper or move him along to someone that might be stickier. Frustrating to be sure, but you may learn a lot watching someone else on him. Maybe you jab him mid air, or catch him in the mouth or he doesn’t land well and is bucking in an effort to rebalance(last one might be a stretch but…) maybe he always lands crossed up behind or whatever. The point is, get a good jockey up there and watch very critically to see for yourself what is going on. With more info comes more answers. Good luck!

[Daventry]

@Pennywell Bay

Why is he still here, you may ask. My kid had the option to send him back after he dumped her (after a year of not exhibiting the behavior). He’s taught her a ton (he’s good 99%). His good outweighs his bad. If he were dangerous I’d send him back (you can argue any buck is dangerous, I know). His 99% good days have let her jump higher and be braver because he is a jumping machine.

He’s taught her how to ask correctly in dressage (he has formal training). He’s taken her cross country.

anddddd he’s taught her to ride half hearted dolphin buck. And yeah- to fall off and get back on. So he’s got her off 2ce in 1.5 years with serious bucks but I have to say- he’s made her pretty fearless. The last time I was 100% ready to send him back and never let her ride him again. She popped back up. It took me about 3 days until I let her get back on him- I was seething.

Not meaning to take away from your post, as you brought up some good points, but dealing with this when you are 14 years old is very different than when you are in your 40’s, don’t bounce as well, have a career, mortgage to pay, etc.

[Jealoushe]

If you free lunge is there any bucking?

[IPEsq]

What was injected?

When I hear Dutch horse bucking (and otherwise trying to remove you) on landing, my first thought is pain in the front feet. Might not be the cause for the other bucking episodes, but for this one problem, that’s where I’d start.

But if injections involved other body parts that might be affected by jumping (stifles or hocks or back or SI for example), then I would want to rule out further problem there as well.

[alibi_18]

@BrownMareDon'tCare

Previously he would buck when he was upset about something: hitting a rail, tripping, spook into a buck, if the rider kicked him too hard.

Your trainer should not allow that.

Young horses training is not for everyone, and not every young horse will put up with beginner’s (involuntary) harshness.

He has been at the same farm and in the same program for three years, gets overnight turnout with a buddy, is in a training program where he is ridden six days a week (three by me, three by trainer).

And things haven’t improved much. This is not the right program for this horse.

It seems (and I accept I may get some flaming for this) to be attitude based.
(…) Otherwise, he is generally a lazy horse with not much work ethic.

You are not experienced enough to train this horse and understand young horses training.

As a trainer, you need to build that work ethic and understand the horse’s needs.

You’ve trained this horse from 3yrs old to now, it’s your skills and attitude that made him who he is.

On the good side, you’ve done a lot regarding his health and saddle issues, but maybe it wasn’t quick enough or maybe it needs to be examined further. It all plays in the development of youngster and pain issues must be quickly resolved before becoming long lasting issues.

Trainer is older and really cannot take the chance of getting injured by my horse (…) she really wants me to ride through it to teach the horse that he can’t get away with it.

That’s, to me, insane.

Your trainer, who knows you, shouldn’t let you do that and the fact that she is suggesting it makes me believe she’s not the right trainer for you.

You clearly are not a horse trainer, let alone a problem horse trainer.

What if you injure yourself seriously?

And I am just not able to consistently ride him through it

If you are not able to ride your horse like it needs to be, and I’m talking here both about frequency and skills, than you need to sell it to someone who will.

I don’t really want to get rid of him: I have a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this horse, (…) .

And this horse is showing you how much he doesn’t care and doesn’t like this training program.

It’s been 3 yrs, don’t you want to have fun riding?

@Daventry’s analogy is, to me, spot on.

[SuzieQNutter]

There are many horses in this world with ill fitting saddles, riders who kick too hard and ulcers who do not buck. I would no longer ride him.

[CHT]

My guess? At some time in this horse’s life he was overly stressed and he bucked. The bucking either unseated the rider or just scared them into taking off some pressure and the horse’s survival instinct made the association that when stressed, bucking will release the stress.

The original stress could have been pain or a training issue.

The solution is to go back to absolute basics and fill in any training holes to give him better coping skills and reduce his stress. the reaction will lessen, but likely always be his go to when stressed.

[roseymare]

How many have had ones who drop shoulders be sore?

[LovieBird]

Saddle, chiro, bodywork.

You might want a second opinion on the saddle- I had two that the rep swore up and down they fit fine. Newsflash: they did not. Once we got his body comfortable it still took a little while for him to stop anticipating discomfort.

Also, you may think I’m insane, but if you’re really desperate, try an animal communicator.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

Does he Ever buck when trainer is riding?
Is bucking only related to jumping days?
Does he display any other resistant behaviors before he bucks?

[twelvebelles]

@roseymare

How many have had ones who drop shoulders be sore?

I have one. He went through a period where he would take a jump, land and stop and drop his shoulder. His SI was bothering him. He will also do it with riders who are too aggressive or do something he doesn’t like. It is his go-to move for all of life’s insults.

That being said, it sounds like this horse is in the wrong training program. It sounds like he is not happy or comfortable with either the work or the way he is being ridden (or both). I think a new trainer who is not “too old to get hurt” is in order - someone who is not afraid of him and can identify what kind of ride he prefers. If I had to guess, he is sensitive and dislikes his balance being compromised in any way, and might want more finesse. My horse is also that way - no hard kicking, no hanging on the inside rein, no getting off balance over long spots. He is fun and athletic and likes to work, but he is an exacting ride. Luckily he and I mesh well, but I’ve had to work to find the right trainer for us.

[OnDeck]

The horse has learned that if he doesn’t like what’s going on he can just buck you off. Problem solved! And if you get back on, he’ll do it again!

That’s got to go. Eventually he’ll injure you and you won’t be able to get back on. Then he’ll learn that if he bucks you off hard enough he’ll get to go back in his stall for the day, maybe even earn himself a few weeks off. Then what? Do you want to get back on him after you’ve both had six weeks off and you just got a cast off? Nope. You need someone who can stick, either a good younger pro or a cowboy, to teach him that he can buck as hard as he wants but he’s not going to get anything out of it.

This may be an unpopular opinion but IMO this behavior is unacceptable even if caused by mild pain. You’ve done vet work and I’m assuming you’ve ruled out anything that would be extremely painful (kissing spines, etc). Even if there is something going on, he needs to learn to communicate in a new way. He could give you small bucks, miss lead changes, jump a little worse, kick out, grind his teeth, etc. There are so many ways he could let you know he’s not feeling right without throwing you in the dirt. You just have to get someone to stick the bucks and then make sure you’re listening for those smaller signals so you don’t miss them.

[endlessclimb]

When you get bucked off, does he get to cavort around freely, or can you manage to hang onto the reins? (Sometimes a bad idea, I’m aware. It’s a question to ask though.)

[gertie06]

As a forty something ammy myself, I cannot imagine putting myself in this situation. Do you have a spouse? Kids? Aging parents who need you? You might be okay with knowingly putting yourself in danger, but are they? Mine would not be.

Okay, so you’ve put effort and money into this horse. I do get that, but it’s worth nothing if you can’t trust him. Without trust, there is rarely fun. And really, if it’s not fun, why bother? You’re an amateur. You should be mounted on something safe and suitable that gives you the grins. Period.

FWIW, I applaud you for trying to tough it out this long. You have clearly put a lot of energy, time, money, thought, and effort into this animal. Imagine how far you’ll go if you put those resources into one who is a good match!

[hillary_again]

Does the trainer ride in your saddle? Does the horse buck the trainer off? If no to both, then my money’s on the saddle. If you have already experimented with this, I would change this horse’s program completely over the winter. I would stop jumping him. I’d ride him in a western saddle, or something like that - keep him fit and working, but not jumping. You may find that you can’t fix this, but this horse may like doing something else. Honestly, I’m an older rider, and I would not want to experience this bucking and what not. Not fun. This horse is not a willing partner. I would not trust this horse in a jumping program any longer. You may need to think about what is important to you: this horse, or a horse you can jump, has a work ethic, not lazy? I made this decision once with a horse: she did not like showing. I decided to change my goals so that we didn’t go to shows. It worked out very well, but I had to get real about it and make a choice. Good luck to you!