Ditto to Gertie 06 above and similar earlier posts. Quit this one while you are still on one piece. I had a (long story) naughty one, dressage horse, put me on the ground half a dozen times in a year. Fortunately no damage to me. He did break my foot by spooking and spinning while we were standing at the mounting block. While I was in a cast I worked out a plan to move him and get him sold and started shopping for something I could trust.
Get yourself over the blood, sweat and tears (meant in a nice way). It sucks to make this decision and it may leave you horseless for a while but the other possibilities are much worse.
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I had to quit a mare I owned that was eventually going to hurt me, the deciding factor being blown off backwards over the cantle during a spinning bucking session. I was much younger and it hurt my pride tremendously, but I listened to older and smarter horsemen. In my book, bucking is one thing, dropping a shoulder while bucking, as a learned tactic, is another. Cut your losses and stay in one piece, along with keeping your trainer in one piece. Life is too short to ride this type of horse. Spend the money you will again invest on finding his problems on a new horse. Find him a working ranch home, with someone who rodeos and rides saddle broncs for fun.
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I had a version of this. I got hurt. I thought I figured him out, I tried again, he was good for 6 months, he bucked again, I came off, hurt again. Sure, someone else would not have gotten thrown, but I did. So, I made the difficult decision to move on. It took me a few months to accept.
Now that Ion suitably mounted again, I realize how much it affected my confidence and my enjoyment. It was the right decision to move on. He is happy in his new home and Iām happy for him.
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Many years ago, I was having an issue where I was coming off my horse often, for reasons that seemed dumb and avoidable. I was young then and a tough rider. Someone here gave me the advice that I just needed to stop trying, that this was dangerous, that I could be seriously hurt. It was hard to hear but in retrospect, completely correct, and not something anyone close to me could see or say.
Thatās my advice to you. Maybe heās in pain. Maybe he has your number. But I donāt think itās safe for you to try to fix it. Someone new might be able to. Thereās just something about your partnership that hasnāt worked out.
The three years youāve invested wonāt be of any help if he sends you to the ER. Donāt fall for the dunk cost fallacy.
What Daventry wrote is blunt but I second her comments.
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Many years ago, I learned that all horses are replaceable. A talented, handsome horse (you know, the WOW beautiful mount that everyone covets) is of no value to you if YOU are not able to safely ride it. We spend way too much money on this sport to not have fun, or to be frightened of what may happen today.
If you and your trainer have spent 3 years trying to figure this out, it is time to move on. Others may have great success with this horse, and solving the issue. I do not see it in your future. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Sell horse (with full disclosure) to someone who can effectively move forward with evaluation and intervention.
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Thank you for answering this. I like PlumCreek have mostly noted that dropping a shoulder is a learned behavior to stop work and/or dump a rider.
ETA and one that can unseat many good riders especially if they have never had a horse try it.
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Have quite a few different thoughts here but going to restrict this to one observation based on long experience and one question.
Observation. Dropped shoulder spin out from under rider following a buck is learned behavior. Buck is reactive, sometimes defensive, quick and explosive. Then doneā¦ Dropped shoulder spin takes more energy and planning then just reacting and extends the time involved. IME, if the bucking is reactive, removing whatever horse is reacting to can eliminate it. If itās defensive, figuring out and eliminating the trigger is key. The dropped should spin needs to be ridden out and then blocked from starting in the future by a confident, strong rider. It will always be a possibility to be added on to other misbehavior, like a spook.
Question, so far, OP has mentioned how much she has put into this. How she has had horse for 3years. How much training she has put into horse. How much blood seat and tears sheās sacrificed. How horse has been so hard to get jumping around, acts like heās just not into it. How she had it vet checked and injected. How much her trainer has put into this horse and the fact trainer is too old to ride out misbehavior and correct it. Hasnāt said it but sure sheād say trainer has been good to her, has gone out of the way, is a true friend.
Sooooā¦has anybody thought about what the horse has put into this? Horse that has been very clearly showing from the very start, itās not good at jumping, might hurt to do it and horse hates it? Whatās best for this horse is not going to be what OP and trainer think is best for them but have they even thought about what is in the best interest of this horse? Whatever else suits anybody else, OP who keeps getting tossed, trainer taking money for training but fearing getting hurt so avoiding jumping, it suits this horse best NOT to continue jumping. Have you and trainer thought about this horses long term welfare? May not be convenient or fit OP and trainers goals but what is best for the horse here? Itās not jumping.
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I was thinking something similar to Findeight - if he just does it while jumping , maybe this horse should go in a different direction. Its not if you are going to get hurt, its whenā¦
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Well, OP posted a thread about a terrible experience at a show this last March after just moving up to 3ā Adults. Told us she was neck riding, taking pace away to the base, getting jumped loose. Things, IMO, we all have endured when trying to move up. So this is not spoken from a position of superiority. Far from it, more BTDT.
But adding this thread about the horseās recent behavior now including the buck and drop/spin and history of not exactly embracing jumping anyway creates at least the perception this whole situation isnāt doing anybody any good. Not helping OP advance her riding or build a positive reputation in the show ring. Not helping trainer create competent horses and riders to showcase her skills, fact if she cannot ride this horse through his misbehavior, not sure sheās got the skills needed for this rider and this horse,
Then we come to the horse. Who did not take to jumping from the get go and now deals with more height and a typical backwards, picking, neck ride from middle aged OP whose trainer cannot fix the damage that ride can do and rebuild the confidence the horse needs. Thereās no way to set this horse up to succeed which should be the goal of anything we ask them to do for us.
Again for OP, at one point, I WAS you and I had THIS horse. Had this trainer too, did many things for me, found me the horse, couldnāt help either of us when I tried to move up. Banged my head against the wall and my ribs on various fences for a couple of years, in my 40s. Made a trainer change to one who got the horse sold to a non jumping home replaced by a suitable, jump hunting, tolerant veteran. A trainer who was also older but always had a younger assistant to smooth the rough edges and keep client horses at top performance for their middle aged Ammy riders so everybody looked good and reflected well on the barn and the horses
Just donāt think anybody here is in a position to move forward with any chance of success and frustration is only going to get worse with the horse suffering the most damage far as future options are concerned. Horses know when we arenāt happy with them, they get frustrated too. Horse community is small and word gets out of bad behavior, not helping this horse if OP wants to move him along to a jumping home. Iād be thinking about Dressage here.
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I agree with much of what has been said - time to move on. However, not to derail this thread, but how do you sell/rehome this type? Full disclosure, obviously, but how do you price it? Send it out for consignment? I think itās hard emotionally to āsellāĀ this type when youāve decide you no longer believe itāll work. Much easier said than done. Apologies if there is too much spinofff here.
I think Findeight has the exactly right comment. The horse probably needs a new job, and you either need a new horse or need to be able to embrace what this horse might be good at and enjoy.
The fact that the horse started bucking again only once you started jumping him again is very strongly suggestive of either a pain response or a horse that so dislikes jumping that heāll go to some lengths to get rid of you so he doesnāt have to do it anymore. It really does not matter how beautiful his form is when he does go over fences properly; heās your horse and if you canāt trust him not to dump you, his beauty is not going to make the fall hurt less.
Good luck.
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Ditto the sentiment that riding is more fun on a horse that you can trust.
In my experience, every horse Iāve ridden that drops itās shoulder and scoots to the side to unseat a rider. Is a horse that has a preconceived plan, and is just waiting for a moment when the rider becomes unbalanced to take advantage.
Actually, when I have decided the most recent hitting the dirt or getting the crap scared out of me is the last time and I am done? Find it very easy to sell, easier to let trainer act as my agent and handle the details though. Sometimes they can even get you some type of trade if they have a good network, good trainers network with trainers in other disciplines so finding non jumping home is easier. If this horses flatwork is decent, it should nit be hard to move him.
Honestly, once I decide Iām done, Iām done. Donāt even want to ride them anymore let alone handle presenting it to buyers.
If you stay in this long enough, youāll have some horses you donāt like very much or who just cant do what you bought them to do and have no interest in switching disciplines. Too bad OP found this one earlier in her journey so it is a bit more difficult to realize itās just not to work.
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Agree. Owner has 2 kids and Iām pushing 50. I wonāt swing a leg over pony.
I was merely sympathizing and saying- yup. We have one. Our is different because we know when heās going to do it and my kid is 11 and game with naughty ponies, in a pro program with a GP rider.
Me? No way. And if it was unpredictable heād be long gone.
more support for the OP that there may be a hungry kid out there more willing to put up with shenanigans. We wonāt buy him, were more than happy if she finds a suitable home that will pay for Mr Unpredictable to show him to them (off my property). Itās a tough if not impossible sell- but she may be able to find a situation where he can thrive.
First: this stinks and I empathize. Like others here, I had the 95% amazing 5% nasty dangerous horse. An ammie on a shoestring budget with my ādream horseāĀ that I could never afford to replace, I still decided to give the horse away. She went to a fab young woman who had the guts to kick her forward on a loose rein out of the arena. That was never going to be me with that horse.
It was emotionally and financially crushing, and totally worth it. Horse is happy and I found an adorable plain packer. Who I can canter bareback and do anything I damn please on. Funny, we are still competitive because of my horseās consistency and work ethic.
This is supposed to be fun!
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If you want to try one more thing, I might recommend posting a video of the horse moving at walk, trot, canter on lunge both ways, there are a lot of experienced people here that might pick up on something soundness wise that you might be too close to the situation to see.
Second, Iād stop all jumping and see if the behavior continues. If this only happens jumping, there is your answer. If you want to jump, and he doesnāt, itās not fair to keep him at it if he really doesnāt like it.
There is nothing wrong with deciding a horse isnāt right for you, for whatever reason, even after putting years into them. Honestly, when you do find that right home for them and see them succeed, it makes you feel really proud of them because you helped them get there. You will have to be brave and really look at yourself and whether you really want to risk getting seriously injured on a horse you are afraid to ride, no matter how much you love him. Sometimes love isnāt the most important factor.
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I agree with what Findeight stated.
How is this horse if you just do flat work in an open arena with no jumps? Is there ever any bucking? What about when being lunged on the flat, no jumps? Have you considered moving horse to another barn/trainer that is more able to work with the horse and taking horse out of the jumping training and just working on the flat, perhaps a career change to dressage? Send horse to a new trainer that will go slow and easy with flat work to determine what exactly is going on. If you are wanting to jump, perhaps time for a change of horses but before I would sell, make sure there is absolutely nothing wrong with your horse other than it doesnāt like jumping.
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Thank you all so very much for taking the time to put your thoughts and experiences out there for me. I have read each of your posts and as I am out of the town for the next week I will be able to spend some time away from the barn doing some real soul searching.
This is not my first horse, but this is the first horse that I have had repeated success on at the A/AA level (obviously coming after the show in March I previously wrote about!). I honestly never thought I would be able to win at an A show, much less repeatedly tri-color and I honestly believe a lot of that success has to do with this horseās skills and abilities. (If only he would use his athleticism for good rather than evilā¦). This situation has been surprisingly emotional for me and I definitely realize some hard decisions need to be made.
Thank you all again so much for your time, suggestions and sympathy!
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Late to the party here but agree that there are some tough decisions to make. Getting to the bottom of why a horse bucks is rarely simple. The reality is that MANY horses with back soreness, sub optimally fitted saddles, ulcers, dental problems, etc. do not act out at all or only act out in minor ways.
Here would be my decision treeāyouāve already had the vet examine the horse and they didnāt come up with anything, so I think the next step is to get the horse to a carefully chosen trainer that is a really good rider who has a reputation for developing young horses. See how things go with this trainer. If good riding and training seem to resolve the problem, then sell the horse while things are going well.
If the horse does not do well after a month or two of hard work with the trainer, then have the vet re-examine the horse. Perhaps after a period of hard work a subtle physical issue will be more obvious. Perhaps you will get lucky and a different vet will find something obvious. Either way your options are: 1) a year of turnout to allow any subtle, difficult to diagnose physical issue to heal (if it is something that can heal) or 2) rehome the horse.
Options that I tend to discourage people from are expensive, unfocused veterinary workups that involve grasping at straws trying to find some mysterious condition that chances are, once treated, isnāt going to solve the horseās problems anyway. Or, repeatedly going from trainer to trainer, spending more and more $$ on a horse with some dangerous behaviors that arenāt improving.
Personally, I think that the best option here is to rehome the horse, itās just a matter of how you are going to go about that. Are you going to take a loss and get the horse moved along sooner, without solving the problem? Are you going invest $$ with a trainer to try to find a way the horse can be successful within his current career? Or invest the $$ with a trainer to get the horse going in another career?
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If you absolutely cannot give up on him yet, you need to start him over with a new trainer and have a second veterinary opinion on the physical aspects.
Fresh eyes on an issue always catch new things, and itās likely that he has some holes in his foundation that need patching. Start small, work on staying balanced and correct (for both of you) so he has no excuse, move up slow, and make sure you have a trainer who can step in and nip and issues in the bud.
He could lack confidence. He might hate jumping. Maybe he thinks dumping you is a handy way to get out of work. Find a trainer who can help you puzzle that out.
