This assessment is so spot on. I agree 110% with all of this. Bravo @alibi_18
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Someone earlier I think said it best, regardless of whether he has pain issues or training issues, there are horses subject to the same environment (pain and/or training) that would not buck and drop a shoulder. That really says everything about the horse. The biggest problem maybe to get him well placed as frankly even professionals do not want to deal with a horse like that unless oozing talent.
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If you do go the route of another vet exam, do at least part of it ridden. I had a lease horse at one time that was Dutch and he had a few not nice tricks (some we knew about which I could manage and made him affordable). Most of the time, he was a great horse. We discovered that he needed to have a lot of foot in front. And who knows maybe there were some issues brewing but it was enough years ago we didnāt go investigating much. But so happened if I got a nice forward spot to a nice big oxer at the right time, like just after he got his feet done, we would land in a way that could earn me a nice belt buckle. Same type of jump he jumped most of the time with no issues. We figured out a way to manage his feet and didnāt have any more of those incidents. But it was a pain response that only occurred under the right conditions and he would certainly have passed the usual unridden exam.
I havenāt seen many horses behave really badly on the back side of jumps that didnāt have a pain issue as at least part of the problem, likely something in the front legs, especially if there isnāt any issue in getting them to and over the jump (no stopping, running out, balking, rushing, etc.).
6 days a week training rides? How much of it is flat and how much jumping.
I agree with others , perhaps this horse simply hates jumping and will never be the paragon you want. Perhaps this trainer is not the right fit and the method is not for this horses character
perhaps he is fed up with the grind and needs to go on trail walks a few times a week.
perhaps he needs a couple months off with his buddy
perhaps he simply needs to be a trail horse or a dressage horse
if I was going to stick with this horse I would get the help of a Dressage trainer and make sure the foundation is correct and not train the jumps. If you need to go over jumps , use a schoolie. If this horse is winning at A/AA then it probably doesnāt need to jump several times a week at home
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I think if you have had issues this long, either the horse has physical issues that just have not been found yet, or jumping just isnāt his thing. Not every horse enjoys jumping. Maybe a change in discipline would help. However, if he is doing this both with the trainer and yourself, a new trainer may be in order, as well as more thorough physical vet diagnostics, or sell him on to someone who may have better luck with him (with FULL disclosure of his issues).
Totally late to this but my horse attempted the same tactics after a jump. She will get flustered if sheās off balance, knocks a rail, etc. She will buck on the backside of the jump and try to drop her shoulder if she gets goosed by the spur, caught in her mouth etc.
The with her is not to do any of those things and, know when they do happen a buck is coming and nip that in the bud immediately.
If you have ruled out pain, I would suggest stepping down as there are probably holes in his training. No way would I think my horse is ready for the 3ā AAs if she canāt take a joke at that height. She can take a joke, but not when learning new things. When learning new things she needs a quiet confident ride.
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First off, thank you for staying in this discussion. Even when you probably donāt like or agree with much of what has been said, you canāt work this out unless you consider all angles.
Please donāt take this personallyā¦but this post is all about you, your needs, your goals, your achievements. What about what the horse needs? Heās unhappy when jumping. Period. At best, he sounds like a Pro Ride only. After 3 years of sporadic, serious misbehavior over fences? You can spend 2k on diagnostics and give him a year off and he still is not going to like Jumping, be intolerant of your mistakes to the point of unloading you and still be a Pro Ride. And you donāt have a Pro to ride him. So whatās the point? Itās been 3 years here, not three months. Best predictor of future behavior is past behavior and only perfect practice makes perfect. Endless drill making the same mistakes over and over without correction just make mistakes worse.
Again, not personal here but more food for thought. You canāt make him like jumping and stop putting you at risk by continuing as you are. And you can never unteach learned misbehavior like bucking specifically to unload you and that dropped shoulder spin and your current trainer canāt unteach it either. Something needs to change. If this horse is being schooled 6 days every week, that needs to change too, only going to increase his hatred of the job.
Personally, think there very well could be underlying physical issues that can be quite expensive to diagnose, expensive to treat and require a long lay up. But you do all that? Thereās no magic treatment to erase 3 years of misbehavior over fences you and trainer canāt correct. Something has to change.
Continuing to put the horse into situations where failure is likely and misbehavior continuing to go uncorrected so you might get a pretty prize just is not going to end well.realize too that sooner or later, heāll dump you at a show getting him a bad public reputation. You need to rethink your goals and include the welfare of the horse who is anything but your willing partner.
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So Iām younger and I have professionally trained horses in my earlier years (found it wasnāt MY thing but love training my own). Yesterday I was out hacking my dragon of a mare because well, I have to. Iām physically able, sheās not naughty just hot, and at some point sheās going to have to learn to focus anywhere. But while out dealing with my seasoned horse, another boarder who is probably in her 50ās (but looks great, kudos to her) riding her super green RMT. He was zigging everywhere, barely going forward, spooking, spinning and I was dumbfounded. I said to myself when I get that age I want that solid, push button pony.
Having spice is one thing, but being bucked off and acting casual about it is another. I donāt know you and Iām sure not judging youāre riding, but why would you want to be ok with that? Sure there can be something wrong with the horse, and I love a good lameness exam. But at some point you may have to say, Iām no longer capable of dealing with that. It certainly doesnāt make you less of a rider.
Ive rode some rank Rachaelās and Iām over it quite honestly. When people tell me they enjoy that I just chalk them up as fools. I enjoy working through problems but Iām not going to put myself in a dangerous situation to prove a point (not saying you are).
just know you wonāt ever fail a horse if you choose to rehome because you just arenāt the rider. Failing a horse is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
Good luck and stay safe!
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While youāre thinking about what to do, and in between sending him to a new trainer, if you decide to do that, it might not be wrong to turn him out for a month or two. Let him be a horse, and that may help whatever is going on in either his mind or his body, before sending him in to a new program.
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if you do choose to continue riding him-I would say for self protection from my experience --you might try him with a pelham/tom thumb with two reins (not a converter) --nothing is worse to sit on a bucker with the head between their legs and you have them in a soft gentle snaffle.
If he is just plain cheeky-dropping his head between his legs for a buck will allow the curb to self-correct him without you moving your hands on him much and being pulled forward. I really like a bit with a curb rein for cheeky horses as you only use it when neededā¦(It can stop a spook spin and dropped shoulder too!) I have found it sometimes can correct a bad habit without much action on my part and keeps me from being pitched over the head. The horse inter-acts with the curb when they slam their head down to do their āthingā and self correct pretty quickly!
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