Horse with no "common sense" - can anything be done?

[endlessclimb]

TL;DR - horse has no independent common sense/problem solving abilities. Exercises/activities to help, or is this a personality trait?

Long version. Bless her. She is really not bright when it comes to working through problems. She’s always been this way.

Case in point. She was having trouble going through the strip curtains I have over their in-out doors today - this becomes a danger because the Old Man leaves and she cant figure out how to get out and shes freaking out, slipping, running. Note - she got in there without assistance… just couldn’t get out.

Today - OK, let’s work on this for real, for the millionth time (i work with her daily on this). I kid you not, I sent her in and out of the doors over 200 times. I led her through, I drove her through, I had her do it alone for treats. She did it all, no problem. One would think this might resolve the issue… but nope. Once I left, she again “couldn’t get out” and was panicking inside. I gave up for safety sake and tied the curtains back.

This is one of many examples of her. It’s honestly made me dislike her quite a bit. I feel like she has absolutely no independent problem solving abilities. She needs her hand held all the time, and when it gets to a “breaking point” (rabbit theory) she will blow, even without increased pressure. It’s like her little brain has a tantrum. It makes me feel like she will never be able to trail ride safely, without risk of my getting dumped over nothing.

So. Are there exercises to help horses work through problems alone? Or is this just “her”?

[GraceLikeRain]

Have you done any Tristan Tucker or Warrack Schiller type of work with her? It sounds like she gets into a FFF mode and just cannot self regulate or process. I wonder if intentional baby stressors where she finds the release and builds the skills to self regulate may help? This specific situation outlined sounds super frustrating and stressful.

[clanter]

I do not think there is a fix, we had Pony of Americas (POA) for our youngest son, This pony every day was a new day as anything that was taught the day before was gone as though it had been erased

It took five years before we felt he might be safe enough to sell, but sold him as none rideable.

He was beautiful, but had zero brains

[endlessclimb]

I have done Tristan Tucker work with her quite a bit. When on a line, she’s fine. It’s the independent self regulation that does not exist in her.

She also has a hard time putting together that I am still “there” when I’m on her back versus lunging. Even with the same cues, same everything. She just spaces out and thinks she’s alone. This is the first horse I’ve had with this disconnect.

I can put her head to the ground with feather light cues both on the ground and under saddle. She has been extensively “sacked out” with all sorts of stuff. She finds that stuff fun. But the little everyday things set her off (the barn cat walking down the drive way - explosion. Heavy construction adjacent to the arena - not even an eyelid bat). She’s bizarre in that regard.

[endlessclimb]

She’s actually pretty clever and willing under saddle. She’s solid first level, schooling second and some third movements. Easy student for all lateral work - collection is trickier but that’s her build working against her but generally she tries.

Give her a walk on the buckle though, and you might get randomly spun off. Again- she prefers to be extensively micromanaged, hand held.

[Simkie]

It sounds like learned helplessness. She’s happy to do what you tell her but can’t problem solve on her own.

I’d give her simple things to work through and let her figure it out. And be cautious on correcting her when she IS making an attempt to do so, even if you think her answer is “wrong.”

[endlessclimb]

Do you have any specific examples of things to try?

I’m always tolerant of “try”. Ill take try over talent anyday. The only thing a horse will get corrected for is an outright “eff you, no”. That gets feet moving for 5 seconds and a “let’s try again” clean slate.

She’s been like this since she came to me as a 3 year old. I always just called it ditzy but at some point it’s honestly aggravating to watch.

[Kinda_Kooky]

This sounds silly, but can you leave like one strip down and build from there?

I have dealt with similar thought processing horses, they never became more independent thinkers, I had to shape the right environment for them.

I feel like you can definitely win battle of the fly flaps, but overall her thought process is what it is.

No tricks in my bag for this, it seems to depend on the particular situation but the reaction is the same.

You have my sympathies and are a patient soul. She is a very lovely mare, but dealing with this stuff is frustrating.

[endlessclimb]

I did that. We had two strips left. It’s the two strips that caused the mental meltdown today - the way they are overlapped, there is no visual difference in how the doors look with the last two strips down.

Sigh. I want a horse I can go out and do random fun stuff with and she may never fit that bill and that’s disappointing. But, it is what it is at some point - they’re all different. Maybe she just wants to be a dressage horse and nothing else, I don’t know.

[Simkie]

Have you considered any clicker training with her?

It might be useful to identify and reward very small steps toward the right direction. For example, if you want her to walk through the strip curtains, perhaps you can click/reward the smallest try, like merely looking that direction. Build the behavior you want out of things she’s willing to do herself.

Even if she’s saying hell no, she’s communicating something, and it’s unfair to not hear that.

[endlessclimb]

I do clicker training with her for other things but could try it here.

“Hell no” doesn’t fly with me. I will never ask a horse to do something that would hurt them, and I’m careful to build confidence slowly. ‘No’ doesn’t fly with me - ‘let me look, let me think, I’ll try’ is all OK. But you can see the difference. Everyone trains differently, and “eff off” isn’t tolerated in my training methodologies.

She will walk through without hesitation, as long as I’m there. Leading, sending her through, standing on the other side calling for her.

When I leave - brain goes blank.

[Angela_Freda]

Are they clear?
Is it possible seeing where they separate is difficult to see?
Maybe add some duct tape stripes or something ?

[endlessclimb]

They’re nearly clear. They’re overlapped 50% per the instructions, so there really isn’t a distinct opening. But I could try that in the middle to see if it gives her a target to push against.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

She will walk through without hesitation, as long as I’m there. Leading, sending her through, standing on the other side calling for her.

When I leave - brain goes blank.

I think you need to reframe this.

She’s willing to do something that’s scary or unsettling to her because you’re telling her to.

But you telling her to do it hasn’t built the confidence for her to do it herself.

She’s being a very good girl for you, but she’s not okay with the question.

Focus on building the confidence instead. You’re pushing her through the no rather than teaching her a confident yes.

If she’s okay with two strips, why are you not just giving her more time with two strips? Make walking through two strips the most amazing, incredible, brilliant thing she’s ever done. When she’s so bored with that, so bored!, drop one more strip. And make THAT the most brilliant thing.

[endlessclimb]

No, all the strips are down except the two strips. Because of 50% overlap, there is no visual difference with them down. She went in and out of them independently many times today. Until she went mentally blank and then couldn’t figure it out. I even brought the Old Man back in to see if his presence could relax her enough to re-engage her brain. Nope. Brain dead on the curtains.

My question stands beyond the current example - how to make a horse more able to independently problem solve. I can clicker train things until I’m purple - when I leave and she doesn’t have me to hold her hand, her head is in the clouds and all you get is a dial tone.

The answer might be “there isn’t a way.” But I didn’t know if people had dealt with this and had any success with any particular method.

[Simkie]

She clearly sees a difference. You can accept that, or not. You can accept her break downs as not understanding the question, even though you think she should, or you can blame the horse.

I have a horse with this issue. She’s fine–until she’s not, in a big, reactive way. That big reaction requires a big back up, not a big push forward. They don’t understand. I agree it’s weird and frustrating because they seem a okay with something until wow, they are NOT. But they really don’t get it, and haven’t been getting it, for awhile. So back up.

[floppyammy]

I have nothing helpful to add, but your post reminded me of this TikTok

https://www.tiktok.com/@noritheiggyy/video/7272492026237701419?lang=en

[endlessclimb]

That’s what I did, I clippe the curtains back the way they were.

I’m asking for ways to help a horse learn to independently problem solve. If it’s “her”, then that’s the answer. You’re focusing too much on this specific example, I think. She’s like this with anything that requires thinking through - not just strip curtains. If I’m not there to help her in a situation she’s screwed as-is. Is there a way to help a horse like this or is it like @Kinda_Kooky said where you have to shape their environment and borderline coddle them.

[endlessclimb]

That’s exactly it. there’s another video where a horse will not step over a hose (I think he thinks it’s electric tape, honestly). All the other horses just calmly walk over, this horse stands there and really has to build up some courage. At least he did it calmly without losing his mind.

[endlessclimb]

And, I also ordered the livestock curtains to see if those click with her better. They’re more like a shade cloth.

I’m trying to work with her here. But just in general, she lacks independent problem solving skills, and I’m not really sure how to help her.