Horse with no "common sense" - can anything be done?

[Simkie]

She was fine walking back and forth with a couple curtains clipped back to start, right? That’s what you said above?

Then you dropped the curtains, she got upset, and you insisted. She would walk through, for you?

You didn’t build confidence. You showed her something scary, she said it was scary, and you said too damned bad, do it anyway because I said. Which she did, because she’s a good girl.

And now the curtains are just scary, even clipped back.

In my experience, with horses like this, and I have one in the barn right now, you have to support them in problem solving, and hear them when they say hell no, and not just push them through that without regard for their fear or concern. It can be a tough line to walk, because they often don’t show they’re upset until they’re REALLY upset, and that’s well past the point where they’re learning, so it takes several steps back to really make progress. Which it sounds like you’ve seen, and where you are right now.

[luvmyhackney]

As a human I feel her pain. It’s not common sense it’s being over stimulated and her brain probably just shuts off, unable to process another thing.

Have you ever tried anxiety meds? Any difference?

[NaturallyHappy]

I haven’t read all the replies but will go back and do so. I will share we had one once that had been part of a university anesthesiology practice program. Every day was a new day for her. Many objects were new to her repeatedly. We could never find a correlation in anything. She never got any better and was given away as a broodmare. She was quite lovely other than her consistent unreliability.

[endlessclimb]

No, you are reading it wrong.

Curtains are fine. I work with her on it daily in order to continue dropping them, little by little. A double check that everything is cool, that she recognizes it’s a little different but not majorly different. I didn’t put them all down in one go like you’re implying.

After 3 weeks, all curtains were finally dropped this morning. She goes in and out just like she had been before, our daily double check. Even cut the session short because she did not hesitate at all. She goes in and out several times today, as usual, no problem.

Two hours later she’s having a meltdown because she can’t figure it out. That’s when my “200 times in and out” session came in. She was relaxed through all of it, every which way I sent her through. Head dropped, lower lip saggy even. Not a care in the world. I leave her (I’m 15 feet away from the doors, but not there-there) and she can’t figure it out.

I clipped the curtains back again (not as far as they were prior, but back - theres maybe a 1" gap in the center), and again she’s fine. So that’s where we will stay again for awhile.

So I’m doing exactly what you’re suggesting I should do. I just want to know how to educate an animal when they can’t work out a simple problem, one you have shown them every day for 3 weeks, one they have demonstrated they can do, one you guided them through a hundred times or more to make it routine.

This “unable to work it out” really bites me on trail rides where it really is up to her to figure out where and how to place her feet. Same with jumping. Can a horse who generally prefers to be babied/hand held ever be encouraged to be more thoughtful, more independent minded? Or will there always be a potential for groundhog day behavior?

[endlessclimb]

I haven’t ever medicated her. I have ace on hand, is that the type of med you’re suggesting? Or more trazadone-like?

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

I leave her (I’m 15 feet away from the doors, but not there-there) and she can’t figure it out.

She doesn’t understand. She may understand if the question is x + y + z but she doesn’t understand when a, b or c are added. She probably didn’t even understand x + y + z but was going along, until things just got really confusing and upsetting.

The answer is just to back up. There’s nothing wrong with her. She just needs more exposure and empathy.

I get that it’s weird. I get that it’s frustrating. I get that it’s surprising. I feel all those things, too, when my little mare loses her shit over something I swear we’ve done ad nauseum. But it’s different for her, and she doesn’t understand, and the answer is to back up. Often far further than you’d expect.

[endlessclimb]

You’re still stuck on strip curtains. That’s not the point. The strip curtains are an example.

She’s like this with everything. I can’t be there for her every second of every day. Nor can I “back up” when I need her to figure out how to navigate a big ditch or swale on a trail ride with nowhere to turn around. Nor can I back up when we’re in the middle of an appropriately sized and complexity gymnastic.

From what I’m gathering from what you’re posting, despite being really hooked up on these strip curtains as the only part of her life this happens in, is that this is just who she is, and that there’s really nothing that can help make a horse with this mentality be able to accurately put a, b, and c together in a coherent way. It’s always a crap shoot.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

From what I’m gathering from what you’re posting, despite being really hooked up on these strip curtains as the only part of her life this happens in, is that this is just who she is, and that there’s really nothing that can help make a horse with this mentality be able to accurately put a, b, and c together in a coherent way. It’s always a crap shoot.

Not at all. It’s about building confidence and supporting them in that. I’m sorry this is all you’ve taken from what I’ve written.

[endlessclimb]

That’s all I’ve done with this horse for the 5 years I’ve owned her with minimal improvement in her independent thinking, and it’s rather insulting for you to imply that I’ve spent that time rushing her etc. I’ve developed her riding skills from nothing to where they are now. She’s not my first young horse by a long shot. She’s not my first thoroughbred by a long shot. She’s just the one that lacks the most common sense. I’ve worked with horses that I would call “slower” mentally undersaddle who could still independently work through problems instead of mentally checking out.

She is fine while handled. It’s her inability to work out problems on her own, no handler involvement, no clickers, no treats, no pushing forward or moving backwards, as if you’re watching on a camera… that’s the issue here.

[Simkie]

And what does each horse not do, if not make us grow and stretch as riders and trainers?

This is how I approach mine like this, with success. You are, of course, welcome to take it or leave it. I have also found it challenging, and empathize with your frustration.

[endlessclimb]

I hear you on each horse offering a way to grow. I just get sad that I can’t safely do the things I enjoy the most (trail riding and camping) because I can’t trust her to thoughtfully consider a problem when I can’t hold her hand every step of the way. For example - lets say shes on a highline overnight and a racoon comes out. That could be a nothingburger or a total blow up. I cant tell you which it would be, honestly.
Or I can’t introduce her to normal new things because she might react in a totally left-field way in relation to her life experiences.

She may be destined to stay in the sandbox, and dead flat and predictable trails nearby. That’s a bummer for me, and may result in her finding someone who wants to do those exact things.

She’s a really cool horse in some ways. Not so great in others. They will all be like that. But I had more fun with my outright crazy late mare because we could go out and do stuff, new stuff, and I could trust her to do her best to bring us home safe. Shayney is an absolute crapshoot.

[barnesthenoble]

I empathize. My partner’s big KWPN is much the same way. Things are fine most of the time, but if he gets worked up about something, or feels stuck in any way, there is no self-soothing, and there is absolutely no problem solving to speak of. There is only panic, running blindly through or into things, galloping around while the other horses go WTF…

He’s not a spooky horse in the conventional sense, and it’s definitely not a case of having been sacked out/Clinton Anderson’ed/learned helplessness-ed. I do think he was done a major disservice in his younger years, because he was started as a big jumper and purchased to be a big jumper and always ridden by tall, strong men until he was sold to my partner. “Broke” wasn’t necessary, go fast and jump the things without question was the goal. It’s very possible he’d be better if he’d been started differently, but I think a lot of it is just…him.

Things I’d expect to get a reaction, like the carport being picked up by the wind and landing upside down in the field? Totally unbothered! Large power equipment? Fine! A major car accident on the road near the field? No biggie! The tree next to the field falling down, taking out part of the fence and laying halfway across the field? Aight. A literal actual bear? Ok, kinda sus but really nbd. Got some snorts.

Things we blindly charged through the fence and galloped a mile away over? Twice in 24 hours? A turkey. We’d seen turkeys before. Including large flocks of wild turkeys. We live with chickens. We get the occasional flock of Canada geese. But this particular turkey walked through the far end of the field. It wasn’t even a tom doing the flirty dance. None of the other horses gave a hoot (until he had destroyed the fence and then the gate the following morning since we’d fixed and blocked off the fence at which point they joined, of course). Turkey vultures sunning themselves also occasionally blow his mind, but we’ve since invested in a very large &%(^ you fence charger and run electric about a foot off the fence. He is thankfully more afraid of the fence than turkeys now. Ugh.

Also things he once jumped the fence over? Me walking in with his fly sheet. He saw me coming. They all saw me coming. The wind caught the fly sheet slightly, and he took off and just…jumped out. While the other horses watched like WTF. Then proceeded to be upset that he was alone outside the field while all his friends were inside.

He’s genuinely afraid of the dark if he doesn’t have my older OTTB with him. His eyesight is fine as far as anyone can tell. You can take him anywhere at any time of day or night if he has his emotional support Thoroughbred with him. He will try to kill you (not out of malice, just out of blind panic) and himself if you take him too far from the field after dark alone.

He can be cool as a cucumber on the trail (we really only go for walks around the canal roads and fields nearby, I don’t trust him on anything technical), but when he gets upset about something–a horse he likes getting too far ahead, something in the distance, something nearby, whatever–he will have an epic meltdown. I have no doubt that he would accidentally throw himself off a cliff if he was having one of his moments on a truly hilly trail.

I love this horse, he tries so hard and is so sweet, but he is just…not a do-everything horse. He was bred to jump big jumps in an arena, fast, and it shows. Common sense and problem solving are not in his repertoire.

Today I watched as he had stuck his head in between the hay net and the feeder (I use net toppers from Hayburners, they’re elasticated and I have them attached with buckles to the feeders. They work great but occasionally my older OTTB, who is frustratingly smart, will find just the right spot to continuously yank on the net to get a buckle to come loose and lift the elastic up over the lip of the tub. I am mostly successful in thwarting him but every couple months he gets one ), which he’s done a million times while I find ways to thwart the smarter horses. His buddy walked away towards me, because I was approaching the gate to fix the loose buckle so they couldn’t keep sticking their heads into the feeders. Rather than pull his head out the way it went in, which I’ve also seen him do a million times, he immediately giraffed his head straight up because his buddy was leaving then had a moment of panic that he was taking the 300 gallon rubbermaid tub with him. He thankfully panicked in place rather than causing utter mayhem and did eventually extricate himself before I made it over, but just…wtf.

This is a long-winded post mostly to say, I feel for you, and I’ve come to conclusion that sometimes it’s just who they are.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

I think this sounds like a situation where “working on it” makes the horse more reactive. It might be a confidence issue, or an overthinking/can’t think/reactive/anxious type thing but practicing isn’t helpful.

I get that you clickered it amd densesitized it but this is a thinking thing. I would just skip a meal and if she wants to eat put dinner and her bestie on the other side.

It also might be a sensory on the back thing. Like some boys don’t like things on their legs, mares don’t like stuff touching their back. Maybe some regumate so she’s not so tender. Or test for lyme.

[Rallycairn]

Have you tried things like cueing from just one step further from where you normally stand, doing lots of reps at that level, then two steps, and so on? I read that you send her, I’m just thinking of breaking it down into tiny increases in difficulty to give her confidence. Then move to where you are on the other side of the curtain but she can still see you, then be partially obscured, working up to being out of sight? Baby steps like that, building up to you being out of sight.

Maybe liberty work in the arena?? One specific exercise you could do at liberty is one used in dog training, 50 things to do with a box, in which you have the dog loose with a box and click and reward any interaction at all with the box – glancing at, looking at, sniffing, stepping closer/approaching, walking beside, nose touch, paw touch – whatever. Any and all interactions get rewarded. This is especially helpful teaching dogs who are hesitant to offer behaviors that it is okay and they will not be punished for offering to interact with something and try novel behaviors.

Remember that animals originally trained with a lot of P+, especially when young, tend to not offer behaviors of any kind. Perhaps this mare was originally trained in such a way that she fears offering uncued behavior, and is just behavior suppressed. ??? Obviously, I don’t know her history, and I don’t know if you know it, either; I’m just brainstorming ideas.

Just trying to think of things where she has to have a little autonomy, and you build from that.

[Feliz]

I think there is hope.

My big mare is 10yo, I’ve had her 2.5yrs and it’s really only been in the last 12mths that she’s really started to think things through more.

She came from a professional program and while very well schooled had very little life experience outside the arena and it showed. She’s never been dirty but she would over react to things. My other horse being removed from the paddock (not even out of sight) could trigger some amazing airs above ground and drama, despite her mini buddy still being there. Step on lead rope = panic. Things In The Distance trail riding = potentially terrifying.

Honestly, I think it’s just been time and mileage doing stuff with me and it’s just transferring more to everything. In the last year I think she has sooooo much more body awareness now and is happier in her body (she’s changed shape a lot). Step on lead rope now = will eat grass very, very close to hoof Things In the Distance or Behind Hedges are still concerning but much less so.

If you’d said when I’d had her 6mths that I’d be able to leave her home alone, no other horses in sight, I would have just laughed. But when my dear wee companion had to be put down last year I didn’t rush to replace him and both my horses have learnt to be left alone in the paddock for up to a day with a bucket of feed and alfalfa hay (a special treat they only get for this). I suspect this has actually given her a lot of confidence in herself.

The biggest thing with her independent thinking is to keep her under threshold - like leaving her alone started with the tiniest increments - literally 20m from the gate etc. Choosing where I trail ride and who with very carefully etc.

I’ve accepted that she’s never going to be the same as my other horse and there are things I just won’t do with her - like trail riding in large groups. Sometimes she still frustrates me with a melt down over something I think is trivial. But she is very sweet and tries hard when she understands - and I see her understanding more and more as time goes on.

Good luck

[trubandloki]

I have a sample set of one on this topic and my experience is, they are what they are and you are not going to be able to make them not be that.
I describe my horse as horse that (when in this mood) reacts first, thinks (maybe) later.

The examples are endless, but at this point I just accept that this horse will always be like this.

[fivestrideline]

Some horses just don’t have the right brain cells for things like trail riding and camping. Especially solo. While I think you can likely get past the curtains and general “at home” issues - I think she might be delighted to be a dressage horse with someone whose idea of a “trail ride” is walking along the fence line after a lesson. She likely is “just like this” in the sense that she doesn’t have self preservation skills and doesn’t easily “connect the dots” the way some horses do.

We had a big imported gelding that just… could not function outside the arena and immediate barn area. Total rockstar at shows, loved being fussed over, had to be taught to be okay with turnout, big whopping meltdown if his emotional support trail buddy got out of nose touching range. He was likely raised in a stall (based on what we could gather) and was a “man’s horse” before import. He was very well schooled under saddle but you couldn’t drop him or trust him to putter around on the buckle without him making some pretty wild choices.

Eventually his owner just accepted that there was no changing his core personality, and they got along quite well after that. If your goals are to get out on the trails, go camping, and not die, I’d say find a horse that naturally wants to do those things. Easier and more fun for both of you than trying to shove a square peg through a round hole.

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

No, you are reading it wrong

Sell her. You don’t have the type of patience for her and she doesn’t have the temperament for the sort of tasks you expect her to complete.

She is not an independent thinker. She is not a problem solver. She is the quintessential follower in the herd.

Fwiw, the couple of horses I’ve known like this (to this extent) had serious physical (neck) issues and I wonder if the two were connected.

[trubandloki]

@sascha

She is the quintessential follower in the herd.

Interesting that you add this to your proclamation.

I do not know about the OP’s horse, but the horse I mentioned above is not that.
The horse I mentioned is not what I would call a good leader, but there is nothing about them that is willing to say they are not leader, even when they are freaking about something stupid. Very much the herd boss. Just like some of us humans who have an irrational and not capable boss.

[clanter]

@endlessclimb

When I leave - brain goes blank.

horse are similar to people not all of the same IQ and some handicaps are not physical

Our Morgans all you need to do train is given them the book to read which they did overnight, that POA every step of everything had to be repeatedly worked with, each morning was a new beginning with the basics once again. It was as if each night his brain was turned off and reset to base knowledge, anything learned was erased. It was as though he was autistic