Horse with no "common sense" - can anything be done?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I never phrased it as “problem solving,” but there were a couple of horses I’ve encountered who seemed to act as if every day was a new day. Spook at the muck bucket that’s always in the aisle. Spook at the winter sun that reliably shines on the sand on the indoor every winter afternoon. Get them through a puddle one day, finally, successfully. The next day, same reaction at the puddle or the pole.

In one instance, the horse was a camp horse and arguably being handled by inexperienced kids can reinforce that behavior because they don’t have an experienced person’s confidence. On the other hand, it’s exasperating that you have to lead a pony thinking UNSTOPPABLE CONFIDENCE-CHARGE every time you literally go over an objectionably white pole on the ground.

Another horse (circling back to what someone else said) was a dressage horse who was pretty talented, and by carefully managing his environment with confidence and predictability, he had success. But I think that is easier in dressage than jumping sports, or, obviously, trail.

This is gonna be one of those whacko COTH forum questions but…are her eyes okay? Sometimes vision problems can make the world look scary and lead to a lack of confidence.

[endlessclimb]

I’ve never had a vet comment on them (however, never had a specialist look, just the general vet), but I’ve always wondered about her eye with the white sclera. She is notably spookier on that side. It’s also her off-side though, which some horses can be spookier on if not evenly handled.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

She will do everything - on a line. Turn her out and shes going nowhere NEAR that stuff

Anxiety and fear can manifest as boldness, in a situation where they know their opinion doesn’t matter and they aren’t permitted to say no. A “polite” fight response, rather than the “flight” they’d really prefer.

[endlessclimb]

Eh she does this loose too. Marches up to something and then panics. She’s been doing it with our dogs for an entire week now, who share a fenceline.

Saw her do it to a feral cat at the last barn. Power walked over to it and EXPLODED when it moved.

[sascha]

@GraceLikeRain

The steps taken with even the single example shared demonstrate far more patience and creative thinking than most horse people I know.

I didn’t say lack of patience. I said “type of patience.” They are two totally different things I do believe the OP has demonstrated an enormous amount of patience with this horse!

[fordtraktor]

I have one like this. He has a high level of baseline anxiety and a strong panic reflex. It’s just who he is and the only fix is patience to get him used to things, and still he regresses if they aren’t done often enough.

I don’t ever expect he will trail ride, that is for sure!

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

On an absolute whim I’m going to put her on Regumate and see if anything improves. I’m also going to start the clock for 6 months.

Ok, if you’re setting the clock for 6 months, here’s another idea to do before the Regumate trial. Whether or not she’s been scoped, treated, cleared, whatever, I would give her a 2-week trial of an acid buffer. Hit her up with the full dose at the prescribed times. If that changes nothing, then go ahead with the Regumate trial.

[endlessclimb]

She’s already on it, due to the move to my house. I’ve also done a semi-full round of proper gastroguard with her (3 weeks, full dose) with no discernable personality change.

[sascha]

Ok, that pretty much checks that off. On to the Regumate trial.

[eightpondfarm]

Check her eyesight, maybe she’s got some moonblindness going on.

@endlessclimb

Can a horse who generally prefers to be babied/hand held

Maybe this isn’t it though? I train mostly with my horse at liberty, so they get to be the ‘decision maker’. Me, little human on the ground… I ask, i guide, i reward. If they blow-it, we make it fun. We joke about it and make that that ‘tricky’ thing or place or movement a challenging game and a funny thing that we both can agree that it’s ‘tricky’. There’s camaraderie for sure in this game… and problem solving together builds that bond. Incrementally, as we accomplish little things together we build the thing that is “US”. Them WANTING to do what i want is the big deal. The Original Thing. Then, as obstacles are presented, getting them accomplished together develops that between us. My job is to be clear in my head and find a way to show them what i want. That’s my big job. Then, to provide a (i think of it like a large tunnel in my head) general way to get there. Say, a garden hose on the ground. They can go head nose down, or quickly or sideways… Many ways/their choice. They of course get applause and treats and verbal praise every inch along the way. And if they don’t want to, i’ll show them me doing it and ask again… If they take just one step, and stop or turn. That is OK. They knew what i wanted, and they thought about it and tried, ON THEIR OWN, no lead rope, no halter, just a naked step forward. They can think about it a day or two, (percolating helps), and we’ll come back to it. To me, the important part of all this is that they have made a decision and have acted upon it, and if i’m doing my job right, we get a little further. Without restraint, without prodding…just them, getting rewarded for making progress.

@endlessclimb

So I’m doing exactly what you’re suggesting I should do. I just want to know how to educate an animal when they can’t work out a simple problem, one you have shown them every day for 3 weeks, one they have demonstrated they can do, one you guided them through a hundred times or more to make it routine.

With horses, with dogs, with sheep and chickens… To me, the real training thing is that one thing, that part where they want to do what i want. From there comes everything. I have a dog that i found that was quite timid. Really shy. He overcomes that and works in a really intense working environment, for me. My horses …they work for me. It’s the bond.

[endlessclimb]

I tied all the strips, all the way back. I don’t know if I’m missing her cues or she’s just not brilliant, but starting over cant hurt.

She can’t possibly be this dumb. Or can she. I don’t know. My Old Man is a genius of a horse so it’s unfair to compare the two.

[eightpondfarm]

i’m guessing it’s more a confidence thing. Threshold gets triggered/recoil response activated.

If i felt this was happening in say, one of my mustangs (and i have a couple of candidates LOL!!)
what i would do is work on that recoil response and de-escalate it. My current project, Trout, is a reactive guy. When he spins and takes off, i laugh at him.(not a mean laugh, not a fake laugh…but i really do find that overly huge response pretty funny…i think of an elephant and a mouse cartoon) And we’ve changed his ‘flight’ away to just a spin and maybe one of two steps (instead of across the corral snorting). And he comes RIGHT BACK! He has bounce now. And he thinks it’s a big deal proving how brave he is. I don’t intentionally trigger him, but initially, just shifting one foot on the ground, or a sneeze, or brushing a fly off of me would send him into a bolt. All at liberty btw. He has ‘agency’ as they say…

[firecracker]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

This is gonna be one of those whacko COTH forum questions but…are her eyes okay? Sometimes vision problems can make the world look scary and lead to a lack of confidence.

This was my thought too. Perhaps she is okay following you through because she can easily see you go through it and she trusts that she’s okay to follow, but when left to her own devices, perhaps there’s something wonky with her vision that is making the strips seem extra scary?

Edited to add that this could be applicable to a lot of things. When you’re working with her and guiding her (whether you’re leading or ground driving or riding), she trusts that you’re going to guide her to places that are safe and okay. When you leave her to her own devices (turned out, being ridden on the buckle, etc) and you take away that guidance, perhaps things are scary due to a vision issue, causing her to be more spooky/worried/etc?

Dunno… just spitballing ideas and thoughts.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

That was my thought as well, especially if the vision issue is partial sight. Sometimes horses who only have partial vision, or one bad eye are much more spooky–because the same thing truly does look different, every single time.

[endlessclimb]

It’s worth a double check. Not sure if I’m willing to go full bore and haul her to an ophthalmologist because from my understanding vision issues can’t be fixed, per say - if that’s the case it’s best we part ways and she finds a new person (with full disclosure of course), or maybe her breeder would take her back.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

Eh she does this loose too. Marches up to something and then panics. She’s been doing it with our dogs for an entire week now, who share a fenceline.

Saw her do it to a feral cat at the last barn. Power walked over to it and EXPLODED when it moved.

Because that bravado is FEAR. You can get freeze, fight – this false bravado – and flight all in one response.

It’s awesome that she’s willing to be honest & say no–say that she’s afraid–when she’s not under direct control. That’s fab. You have this great tell to know if she’s really okay with something or not. So use that to check. If she’s not okay free, she’s really not okay, even if she’s “willing” in hand. Find a spot where she really is okay, even loose, and build her confidence from there.

Haven’t you said something about this mare having trouble with ulcers? That fits well with this, too. She’s carrying around a ton of fear that’s not being addressed.

[endlessclimb]

No, she’s never had problems with ulcers. You’re thinking of someone else. I’m always quick on the preventative for ulcers though, for both horses. She’s never been scoped because she’s been on a preventative during any distinctly stressful events.

[Djones]

I will offer a take on common sense. You know how some people just have no sense of direction? Others have a feel and they just get it? I think of that as a form of awareness and sense. I have owned horses with no feel for trail safety, one in particular would step off trails on the low side of steep stuff and just not notice she might fall off a mountain. I bought her as a weanling. Ponied her extensively over terrain. Did obstacles with her. She wasn’t clumsy, she just lacked the sense to stay on the mountain.

I sold her at about age 8? She went on to be a cherished mounted patrol horse, worked Mardi Gras, and she did a ton of search and rescue work. Her owner disliked steep stuff, so.she and Maggie were meant for each other.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

No, she’s never had problems with ulcers. You’re thinking of someone else.

Ah, my mistake. That’s great that’s she’s on preventative; it sure sounds like she has a lot of upset in her life right now. At least ulcers should be off the list!

[endlessclimb]

Hopefully. I know they can still form even on that stuff, I planned to take her off after a couple weeks but decided to hold off based on her behavior. Don’t want that problem added to her already “unstable” general personality.