Horse with no "common sense" - can anything be done?

[kt]

@endlessclimb

When I brought her to the last farm she was boarded at, I shit you not - she touched the electric fence over 20 times the first day. I stood there and watched in borderline horror. And every week for the 2 years I was there, she touched it at least 5 times more. Now that she’s here, she continues to touch the electric tape - I just had to retension a line she tried to reach through.

It’s things like that.

So many people with more experience than me have been commenting here, but just wanted to say this particular nugget about this mare stands out and really does make me think that it’s her. Because maybe my personal sample size is too small, but this repeated testing of the electric fence as if she doesn’t even remember the cause/effect just seems out of step with typical learning skills and follow-up behavior.

At the risk of sounding like I think horses and dogs are the same and making a massive over-generalization, I will say that we have a saying in our family that dogs’ sweetness and smartness are inversely related (ie, our sweetest dogs have been our dumbest, and our not-so-nice ones… super clever). We have a 13-month-old incredibly sweet female Great Dane, and while granted, this breed is never going to make it onto a Top 10 Smartest Dog Breeds list, we’ve been honestly shocked at how mentally slow she is. It’s not just having to correct her over and over for the same things every single day-- it’s the baffled look she gives you as you say her name with the command, as if she’s never heard the command in her life.

Anyway. It sounds like you’ve put in a lot of time and effort with her already, not just to train her but to try to understand and help her grow. Whatever happens, you’ll do right by her.

[CBoylen]

How does she do with a mirror? Horses are one of the few animals with self recognition. But my small subset of really unintelligent ones? One clacked at it and the other still runs away after years of practice.

[RMJacobs]

@kt

I will say that we have a saying in our family that dogs’ sweetness and smartness are inversely related

That has not been my experience. We adopted a feral flat coated retriever puppy years ago. She’d never been in a house before, never lived with humans. I swear she took a look around and thought “this is a good gig–I’ll make sure to hang onto it.” She was wicked smart and a total sweetheart. You wouldn’t expect the sweet personality from a dog that had not had human contact before the age of about five months. We got so lucky with her.

When it came to horses, I had one very smart pony, one pretty smart Paint mare, and an average intelligence pony who was especially sweet. The smart pony was rank when we got him from a rescue, but with patience he figured out we were going to treat him fairly, and he ended up being a love bug too. The mare always looked at us as staff, except she worshipped my husband (bringer of food).

Rebecca

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I agree. I have had many smart, very kind dogs who never took advantage of my inexperience and who were people-pleasers.

My favorite horse was a incredibly smart Morgan and while not exactly sweet, the only time I ever saw him spook at something was when the electric company doing “work” unexpectedly dropped a wire near the arena where we were working. If you could convince him the task you asked of him was interesting, there was nothing he wouldn’t do. (And while not “sweet,” he never dumped me in all the years I rode him, and I am a very mediocre rider, to be honest, so can you ask for more than that?)

[kt]

@RMJacobs

@kt

I will say that we have a saying in our family that dogs’ sweetness and smartness are inversely related

That has not been my experience. We adopted a feral flat coated retriever puppy years ago. She’d never been in a house before, never lived with humans. I swear she took a look around and thought “this is a good gig–I’ll make sure to hang onto it.” She was wicked smart and a total sweetheart. You wouldn’t expect the sweet personality from a dog that had not had human contact before the age of about five months. We got so lucky with her.

When it came to horses, I had one very smart pony, one pretty smart Paint mare, and an average intelligence pony who was especially sweet. The smart pony was rank when we got him from a rescue, but with patience he figured out we were going to treat him fairly, and he ended up being a love bug too. The mare always looked at us as staff, except she worshipped my husband (bringer of food).

Rebecca

As I said, I knew I was risking a huge overgeneralization there… but we have often found this to be true. This absolutely does NOT apply all cases or experiences, and I thought that would be implied.

[MunchingonHay]

I like this one:https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0a6ab453dca08831&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS905US905&sxsrf=ADLYWIIP4ef5O8Wb4VS3OUDjO7S_FzulhQ:1722894143221&q=ten+second+tom&tbm=vid&source=lnms&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J_86uWOeqwdnV0yaSF-x2jrJh7Dt5wV71ckxEPe_0GQyc61_Jkg5ZI9z4zNW20fWd52E8UO95Fa_VxoakS9zyCiAT-lUw9SqXLpdCTRHyZ2TB397CTLvedOJGxV_D_7JRzn827oY3wzpySThiJ8JihGoKqQR2_EkH-yaVIj8nLqyaR61pA&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwibuJHr6N6HAxVbE1kFHcSbKxEQ0pQJegQIFxAB&biw=1920&bih=1079&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:b7e8c622,vid:-s8DAtaMyZE,st:0

[fivestrideline]

I’ve had the same experience. My dumb dumb (half Dane) is the sweetest baby, but she’s really not that smart. She is incredibly food motivated though so there is hope for her somewhat!

This has been true across many dogs. Not the rule, of course, but I’ll take sweet but dim any day

ETA: sweet, dim, and scared of everything though, not as fun.

[Heinz_57]

@endlessclimb

confident that Shayney just doesn’t have a natural ability to think through things on her own.

Not relevant to the bigger problem as a whole, but… hear me out. She was on the track, right? So presumably was taught to stay off a stall guard. Is it possible that, absent your direct guidance to go through, she’s treating the curtains as a stall guard that Shall Not Be Touched?

As for the bigger problem: I do think that most of the time you can build them up to be braver and more self-confident, to think things through before panic mode sets in, but you cannot install self-preservation. If you think she would likely run off the side of a mountain with you on top, believe it. If that doesn’t jive with your personal goals, prepare her for a new home.

I don’t even have a sandbox, so all my horses (even the barely broke ones) must learn to ride out in the field. Alone. Period. With whatever might happen, and not kill either of us. If you can give some different examples of situations where she does/doesn’t do what you’re calling common sense besides this curtain thing, I might be able to offer some ideas? But it’s so hard to interpret horses through someone else’s lense, not seeing it in person.

[RMJacobs]

I wasn’t telling you that you were wrong, just that my experience had been different. It wasn’t a criticism at all.

Rebecca

[Demerara_Stables]

How is she when handled by other people around scary things? Since you’ve been “mom” since she was a baby, maybe you give her confidence. Maybe someone else handling her/asking her to figure something out will teach her more problem solving skills? Grasping at straws here.

[endlessclimb]

Everyone I allow to handle her is experienced enough that it’s same-same.

@Heinz_57 she breaks stall guards all the time. In fact the other night when I locked them up due to a storm, she broke a double ended snap on their “stall divider”. That isn’t it. I also don’t have a sandbox here - it’s more the “must be in a controlled environment” that I was inferring.

@CBoylen not sure about the mirror. I can’t recall ever showing her one.

I’m proceeding with the intention to sell. She’s got so many talents, and is the easiest TB I’ve brought along under saddle (overall, minus that on the buckle spook she’s got), she can easily do second level dressage, and she’s pretty and very sweet. She’s just not going to put it together enough to be safe for my goals. I don’t enjoy showing enough to keep her around for that purpose, despite her talent there.

[fivestrideline]

I think that’s a good plan. Someone is going to be thrilled to have her, I think!

[endlessclimb]

With all strips pulled back today, no interaction from me.

The first storm that came through, she came inside and ate hay for the duration. She’s been in and out all day, eating hay and escaping flies.

This second storm - she’s outside in it, miserable, getting rained on. She’s stomping and shaking her head because of the water dripping. The Old Man is inside, head out, looking at her…

Whatever, Shayney. You gotta learn to save yourself.

[Texarkana]

Re: the curtains.

I’d put her BF out in the field, put her in her stall, put her tasty food outside the stall, and see if she decides to starve to death alone.

She might.

I had a horse with really weird processing problems. I always suspected she had some sort of trauma as a foal, like losing critical O2 during delivery or losing critical socialization time due to illness or injury. I didn’t own her until she was 18, so who knows. From the little bit of backstory I got on her, I think her issues were a lifelong deal.

She did marginally improve with routine routine routine. I don’t doubt she could have had something off with her vision.

My initial reaction to bringing her home was “WTF did I just do” but I grew to adore her.

[Walk_N_Gal88]

We’ve got a paint mare like this at our barn. She is amazing in the ring, whatever you want to do with her. Barrels, poles, jumps, walk/trot, deadline, turn babies loose on her-you ask it of her inside an arena or pasture, she will do it without a wrong step or bad attitude. You ask her to do ANYTHING even walk on a trail, and she is a high-strung, nervous, neurotic mess who will throw your butt and head back to the barn whether you are attached or not. We suspect it was due to her previous owners who we KNOW were borderline abusive. We’ve had the mare over 10 years and despite working with her on the trail issue, she’s just as bad as when we started. So we don’t take her on trails anymore for her sanity and our safety.

[endlessclimb]

For me it’s the “50 first dates” thing. I don’t mind one bit taking the time to introduce a horse to a problem slowly. But when I’m going to have to repeat that same lesson for 5 years straight, and the horse doesn’t “learn the game” of if I show you something, it’s not going to hurt you… it’s just not my gig. Maybe someone else would enjoy that but I sure don’t.

[Dressagelvr]

Don’t worry OP and Sascha, my horses regularly spend a good bit of time out of the arena and cross training as any well rounded athlete should. They are all fine walking through low branches, opening gates, etc. In the end, it makes them better dressage horses and keeps them happy in the work. They also jump for fun.

OP lost me in the beginning when she said she’d spent 5 years drilling something with no positive results, sometimes causing this horse to Melt Down. That does nobody any good, especially the poor horse. It is unkind to drill a horse to the point where they Melt Down. It isn’t good training…in any discipline.

When a compassionate rider hits a training wall, they get professional help. Or realize that this horse just isn’t good at this. And stop.

I once bought a horse with stellar dressage bloodlines, but I’ve never seen a horse who hated dressage more. Did I drill dressage and melt him down? Nope. Because I knew it wasn’t fair to the horse. I started jumping him which he loved. I sold him to a hunter rider who has had great success with him in that ring.

[endlessclimb]

Hey, if me trying to drill life skills like “dont touch the electric fence” and “think your way out of a problem” makes me a bad horse trainer, give me the brush and I’ll paint myself with it.

Eta: your reading comprehension is poor if you think I’ve been drilling plastic strips for 5 years. This is just the most current manifestation of this horses lack of sense.

She’s for sale. Want her? Sounds like you’d make a great home for her.

[Texarkana]

@endlessclimb

For me it’s the “50 first dates” thing. I don’t mind one bit taking the time to introduce a horse to a problem slowly. But when I’m going to have to repeat that same lesson for 5 years straight, and the horse doesn’t “learn the game” of if I show you something, it’s not going to hurt you… it’s just not my gig. Maybe someone else would enjoy that but I sure don’t.

There’s nothing wrong with any of this.

But I tend to take a different approach in the sense that I’m not going to try to “teach” life skills. I will put them in pro-“figure it out yourself” situations, adjusting/monitoring for safety as needed, but otherwise leaving it to them.

For example, it took my mare over a month to figure out “come in the barn when it rains if you don’t want to get wet” after I bought her. But I didn’t try to teach her to go in with proper training sessions, I just left her to figure it out. Was I happy about it? No. It was December and she was shivering, so I was out there swapping out blankets and wasting tons of hay while her friends watched on from the comfort of inside. But eventually, she figured it out.

One time when she was boarded, the staff moved her to a new stall on the other side of her best friend. She previous had her feed pan on the right and bars to see her friend on her left, so she would take a bite and walk over to the bars to see her friend, then walk back to her feed.

They swapped her stall so both her feed and friend were on the right and she wouldn’t have to do that. But don’t you know it took the mare DAYS to figure it out. She would take a bite, walk to the (solid) wall on the left, panic when her friend wasn’t there, then go back to her feed and do it all over again. All while her friend looked through the bars like, “you dummy.” But, she eventually figured it out.

[Djones]

@Dressagelvr

Or realize that this horse just isn’t good at this. And stop.

Loll this mare doesn’t learn from getting zapped by electric fences. Hellooooo…