Horse with no "common sense" - can anything be done?

[Simkie]

I’m curious if the thing with the electric fence is a strange stereotype.

Everything else seems to fit for a horse that’s been very over faced because you’ve been reading her false bravado as understanding & confidence, and she learned along the way somewhere that she can’t say no when she’s being handled directly.

It’s a big task to go back and build all that, especially when she’s afraid but without much of a tell in hand. Doesn’t sound like that’s something you’re interested in, but she’ll make a great horse for someone who is! How kind of her to be so willing, even when she’s so afraid.

[endlessclimb]

You’re making it sound like I’ve chronically over faced this mare. I’ve had her for 5 years. Five. One, two, three, four, five.

I haven’t. I know I haven’t. She just reverts abruptly in her life skills. Even just this morning she decided that seeing her neighbor friends was more important than my personal space. That has NEVER flown with me, ever. She ended up tied for an hour where she regained her noggin and decided, though she was excited to see the neighbors, that I was also of importance.

It took almost a year for her to be able to go through 2 trot poles. Now we can do whatever regarding ground poles, but a YEAR. And I patiently waited. (Still, she will revert and launch them about 1 in 500 times, but it’s still there)

You’ve got this fantasy this horse could be whatever I wanted her to be if I just did xyz. I don’t try to make horses into things they don’t want to be by just being insistent about it for years.

She thrived in a chaotic boarding barn, where her stall had full view of the arena. I think it occupied her brain. Ironically she only got 4 hours a day of turnout there. That’s not her life anymore. It’s hopefully going to be again soon.

[Texarkana]

@endlessclimb

She thrived in a chaotic boarding barn, where her stall had full view of the arena. I think it occupied her brain. Ironically she only got 4 hours a day of turnout there. That’s not her life anymore.

To be fair, she’s only been in her new life a few weeks.

If you want to sell her, that’s fine. No judgement from me. But I do think it’s worth a gentle reminder that she had a big life change. It often takes horses a while to adjust, especially young TBs.

Would you consider giving her another 30 days at her new farm, then reevaluate the plan to sell her?

[endlessclimb]

Also, if afraid looks like a lower lip so droopy I could throw cheerios in it, airplane ears, sleepy eyes, and a cocked leg, my 25+ years of horses has been in vain.

[endlessclimb]

I could do that. But she’s not thrived in “quiet barn” environment for a couple years, and I truly don’t believe she will ever be a reliable and safe trail horse, which is what I’m missing the most from my horse-life. When she gets scared, it’s every man for himself and she doesn’t particularly care about herself, either.

Eta - to clarify - she thrived in the barn I boarded at for 20 years. The barn I moved to was quiet, and her behaviors definitely escalated there. Without something to occupy her, and with a dead-nuts schedule every day, her behaviors definitely deteriorated. She thrived on the unpredictability and crazy crap in the arena she could see.

[OnAMission]

That fence thing though… that’s the most basic cause and effect, literally like putting a hand on a hot stove. We’ve had a lot of horses that just didn’t seem to think like most but I’ve never seen one need that many turns at the hot fence in a day. I can kind of sit back and see it as a testing, I have had horses that will sniff or whisker test a hot fence just to be sure of what their options are but never had one do it over and over same day, actually being shocked by it. I don’t at all see it an intelligence thing, to me I can see it as a confidence/lack of thing, a stubbornness? something driving her to just not give up on whatever plan/thought she had. But I do think the end result is the same, she’s just marching to her own drummer that the humans can’t hear. I can see anxiety in it; heaven knows people will continully feel compelled to do things against their own welfare when driven by emotion, anxiety, etc.
OP I see where you just said that you thought the chaotic boarding barn occupied her brain and I 100% think that could be it. Like people that have to stay busy or they spiral; she likes it busy and the dots very close together. I think getting her back to that is going to be a blessing to her and you both.

I have a horse that is unpredictable. He’s perfect until his 13th rabbit and then he could kill himself or someone around him. He’s jumped off a back country trail with me, he’s fallen off a back country trail with me, and then I refused to ride him any more. He has people anxiety, either despite or b/c of his large amount of training. He loves to be a pack horse and would calmly follow his lead buddy horse through hell and back with nary an ear twitch. All that training, surefootedness and pretty to boot and he’s best at being a pack horse. Luckily we have a job for him. I’ve tried to figure him out for years too and I finally stopped trying to understand and took him for what he is; a deluxe pack horse.

[endlessclimb]

She is a “toucher”. Likes to touch things, me, the wall, touch. She could not put the dots together that she was NOT allowed to touch the fence. It was literally like she was checking every line between every post “can I touch this? How about this?”. And for the times afterwards, she throws a tantrum when she pops herself. She’s not scared of the fence, she’s mad at it.

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

When she gets scared, it’s every man for himself and she doesn’t particularly care about herself, either.

I get this. Although mine is frighteningly smart, she’s also an adrenaline junkie and I have to be careful to manage her when she goes looking for a ‘hit’ of her favourite ‘drug’ because the brain goes out the side door at Mach chicken and just keeps going. It’s quite something to behold - barn favourite, most cuddly, super communicative, outgoing, smart, impeccably mannered to completely feral. Thankfully, she also communicates that so if the human handling her is smart enough, it can be de-escalated before it happens.

I’ve also worked with ones that don’t give signs before the brain goes flying out. I wouldn’t wish them on anyone. They are no fun at all no matter how talented, sweet, and beautiful they may be.

[Texarkana]

@endlessclimb

I could do that. But she’s not thrived in “quiet barn” environment for a couple years, and I truly don’t believe she will ever be a reliable and safe trail horse, which is what I’m missing the most from my horse-life. When she gets scared, it’s every man for himself and she doesn’t particularly care about herself, either.

Been there, too. And I just took my “every man for himself” nutcase camping where we did nothing but trail ride for a whole weekend and she was one of the saner horses there. But… she’s also 19 now and not everyone can or wants to wait around and hope for a happy ending.

Nothing wrong with selling a horse who doesn’t suit your needs.

But I do think a lot of your farm-related problems will solve themselves with time. I brought my then 2 horses home in 2012 and the first few months were HELL in terms of weird, out-of-character behavior. After about 8 weeks I brought home a donkey, who helped tons. But it just took them awhile to adjust to quiet, backyard life after being in larger barns for so long. I had similar problems with personal space, attachment to neighbor’s horses, etc. But once they felt more comfortable in their routine and in their space, all of that resolved itself.

[OnAMission]

I can totally picture it; I’ve been reading through all of this the last couple days and thinking of my pack horse. He’s the same, to the point that he licks people and things like a dog. He get a release from it too, he’ll lick lick lick and then let down, yawn, sigh, relax. If he’s tied or penned up somewhere and he wants out he will strike and kick the trailer/fence/panel. If he were left here without his buddies in hot fence I think he would do exactly that.

Growing up in MT people used to pass off horses like this as having gotten into loco weed.

[Posting_Trot]

I’m in the camp of, “it’s been five years–she’s told you who she is. Believe it.”

I know that I as a horse-owner, and I suspect others do this as well, always try to figure out what must have happened to a horse to make her this way. But, for all any of us knows, she was born this way. Maybe her dam was exactly like this too; I have heard that the dam’s behavior has a huge impact on a foal.

She sounds like a horse with a lot of talent and some lovely attributes. (And honestly, I think we all deserve a picture of her!) She might do extremely well with a rider who has different aspirations where the horse’s quirks won’t show up on a regular basis.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

Also, if afraid looks like a lower lip so droopy I could throw cheerios in it, airplane ears, sleepy eyes, and a cocked leg, my 25+ years of horses has been in vain.

Yeah, sometimes when they know their opinion doesn’t matter they shut down and look like this.

I get that it’s weird. I get that it’s confusing. This is 100% what my little mare looks like, only she is still willing to have a big, expressive reaction when things get to be just too much. I have found it VEXING because holy shit, she is FINE! Beyond fine! She’s not saying anything about not being okay…until she is really not okay. So I can do one of two things: I can believe she’s okay, and she’s got a ridiculous behavioral issue and try to push her through that. Or I can believe her when she tells me she’s not okay, and back up. I’ve been backing up. She’s gotten so much better. But yeah, it’s tough when you’ve got a horse that’s shut down a communication channel. I get it.

Have you ever considered…believing her when she says she’s afraid? Even though she’s not willing to have that big expressive fear reaction in hand? And doing something other than flooding that fear? It sounds like you’ve run through your toolbox otherwise, and flooding isn’t working. There’s very little to lose in just trying something different.

It sounds like you just don’t like her personality that much, so selling her makes sense. Life is too short to a have a horse you don’t like. But this whole thing of not being able to recognize that fear/confusion/anxiety/etc can present as more than a flee response is a hole in your swing as a trainer, and really worth some exploration.

[SillyHorse]

@sascha

This is such a simple and straight-forward skill to teach.

I’ve been riding, showing, training, for more than 50 years, and I have never had occasion or need to teach a horse to walk through curtains. It’s not as common as you and others would like us to believe.

[endlessclimb]

That’s fair. Perhaps someone else flooded her before, I haven’t used that training method in 10 years (I used to!). Particularly with thoroughbred and warm bloods I’ve found flooding to be damaging.

When she’s with me, she has the droopy lip. When she’s not, she’s either OK with it or terrified or can’t figure it out.

For what it’s worth, her track connections gave her the name Shayney No Brainey. This is not a revelation that started with me. They also warned me of her propensity to get on the muscle and big when over faced, which she hasn’t done with me but does when presented without human intervention.

[sascha]

For those of us who have been in a range of stables in the cold and buggy north, they are a thing. I saw the insulating ones for the first time over 30 years ago and tons of people have the bug screen style on barn doors and shelter openings.

At any rate, for most horses, it’s a really easy and fun skill to learn and very, very easy to teach … to most horses.

[endlessclimb]

Shayney tax!

[Djones]

She is a pretty thing.

(someone right now is mad I wrote ‘thing.’)

[endlessclimb]

She sure is, and SO so sweet. And a lovely mover, in my barn blind opinion. She’d make a great cross on a quarter horse for HUS babies, if you don’t mind potentially getting that brain.

[FjordBCRF]

For whatever reason, I like reading her name as ShayNeigh even though it wouldn’t be pronounced right.

I would struggle with the lack of common sense too, particularly in a horse. Our mini Aussie will breakdown when her ball goes under something. She usually can get it if she tries, but sits in her most alert posture by where it is and whines for us to do it for her. She eventually figures it out herself but 12 years later she still has to have prompting from us that she can do it.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

Perhaps someone else flooded her before, I haven’t used that training method in 10 years (I used to!).

Taking her through the stall strips 200 times when she was afraid of them was flooding. Just because she won’t show fear in the way you expect when you’re handling her doesn’t mean she’s not afraid.