Horses and "your space"

[Ennaleahcar]

I’ve been reading about groundwork quite a bit lately while working with my young mare, and I keep reading that it’s very important to not allow your horse to “come into your space.” Depending on what I’m reading, there are varying degrees of this; I was just reading this article (https://www.spalding-labs.com/community/julie_goodnight/w/faq/336.lead-line-leadership.aspx) where the trainer says that a horse moving even his nose towards you is a “cardinal sin” and should be disciplined immediately.

I get that your horse should respect your space and not shove you around, but not even letting him reach out to sniff you seems a bit extreme to me. Maybe I’m taking this too literally!

What do you guys think? How do you teach your horses to respect your space?

[dungrulla]

My horse is very well behaved and not pushy. I expect him to FACE ME when I’m standing somewhere. If I move I want his nose to follow me where I’m going. If I walk around him in a circle, I expect him to spin around to face me the entire way. It’s not so much a respect thing as it is a “pay attention to your handler” thing, and it’s one of the first things we teach dogs, as well.

When I lead him, I tend to hold toward the end of the lead rope, then just walk away. If he doesn’t follow, I put pressure on the halter until he does. He usually walks 2-3 feet away from/behind me, but if we’re on trails he may get a little ahead of me even but that’s okay as long as he isn’t trying to steamroll me or pulling on the lead.

What I DON’T want him doing is being pushy and/or mugging for food or attention. If he pushes me with his head or tries to lip me he gets a smack. Backing up a pace or dropping his head and turning away gets him a reward. This teaches him that the positive way to get attention is to respect my space, rather than trying to intimidate him into doing so.

So no, I disagree that moving his nose/face toward you is a cardinal sin. I actually WANT my horse facing and paying attention to me. Pushing me with your head, mouthing, mugging, etc ARE cardinal sins, but rather than just punishing/putting pressure on for them, you need to do that AND teach an alternate behavior.

As for moving the feet, it is much easier to do this with a reward or pleasant stimulus as well as pressure than it is with just pressure. For example, take teaching your horse to back up. Put gentle pressure backwards on the halter or chest and say “back up”. The second the horse even MAKES THE ATTEMPT, even if he only moves his feet an inch, drop the pressure, praise LIBERALLY, and give a treat immediately, like within a quarter second of the praise. Build distance with subsequent attempts, but ALWAYS praise the second the horse makes the attempt. They usually learn very rapidly to back up. The same goes with any other direction you could possibly want their feet to go in, and using this technique your horse will learn quickly to give to pressure.

Does this make sense?

[Ennaleahcar]

Totally makes sense, dungrulla! There’s a difference between an attentive horse and a pushy one.

I especially agree with wanting your horse to face you when you’re working with them. When I lunge mine and I tell her to “whoa”, she stops and turns to face me immediately; that’s exactly what I want her to do. The same trainer who wrote the above article also said that she NEVER lets a horse turn towards her because that in itself is a sign that they’re trying to be dominant over you.

Guess I won’t be reading her articles much more! Haha.

[dungrulla]

It is useful for them to know how to stand out on the lead, too. Mostly because it IS an obedience skill and exercises their brain, but also because “stand” is a transition they should know. The way I teach this is through pressure.

Put some pressure on the lead and count to three. Then say “stand”. Increase pressure on the lead, or give a few pops, until the horse stands. THE SECOND THAT HORSE STANDS, praise liberally and DROP ALL THE PRESSURE.

This technique can also be used to reinforce horses to back up, go sideways, etc once you’ve taught them what those commands mean with food.

This is easier to do if the horse has a bit in its mouth but they learn very fast this way.

One thing a lot of people make mistakes with is that animals don’t automatically know how to respond to pressure, so we have to teach them how to turn it on and off. This is what the count to three is for. Pressure…1, 2, 3…command, when they execute the command the pressure is released. If you just say the command and put on the pressure, the horse has no association between that command and the release of that pressure. It’s like they’re being punished for nothing.

[DJohn]

A horse facing you when longeing is a sign of “defensiveness” not necessarily dominance. They are blocking you with their body, protecting their rear end from you. They’re basically blocking you from being able to move them forward. So it isn’t necessarily a good thing for the horse to face you when longe-time is over, but I wouldn’t get too worked up about it.

As for “personal space” I really dislike my horse following far behind me, I don’t like it when any horse lags when being led, it’s annoying. Because my horse knows how to drive, he knows “cluck” or “move up” means pick up the pace. So, he is comfortable following 2-3 feet behind me, but if I cluck, that means get up here beside me. My horse can lead from anywhere, sometimes when it’s windy, I walk beside his hip and ask him to keep walking so he is my “windblock”. He is happy to do whatever I ask, and I like that.

I have found that a horse who “lags” when leading is also a horse who “lags” when being told to move forward under saddle. Not my style!

[dungrulla]

[QUOTE=DJohn;7969322]
A horse facing you when longeing is a sign of “defensiveness” not necessarily dominance. They are blocking you with their body, protecting their rear end from you. They’re basically blocking you from being able to move them forward. So it isn’t necessarily a good thing for the horse to face you when longe-time is over, but I wouldn’t get too worked up about it.

As for “personal space” I really dislike my horse following far behind me, I don’t like it when any horse lags when being led, it’s annoying. Because my horse knows how to drive, he knows “cluck” or “move up” means pick up the pace. So, he is comfortable following 2-3 feet behind me, but if I cluck, that means get up here beside me. My horse can lead from anywhere, sometimes when it’s windy, I walk beside his hip and ask him to keep walking so he is my “windblock”. He is happy to do whatever I ask, and I like that.

I have found that a horse who “lags” when leading is also a horse who “lags” when being told to move forward under saddle. Not my style![/QUOTE]

My horse is a little TOO forward for my liking. I’m hoping maybe this will help if/when he goes back under saddle.

[Ennaleahcar]

[QUOTE=DJohn;7969322]
A horse facing you when longeing is a sign of “defensiveness” not necessarily dominance. They are blocking you with their body, protecting their rear end from you. They’re basically blocking you from being able to move them forward. So it isn’t necessarily a good thing for the horse to face you when longe-time is over, but I wouldn’t get too worked up about it.

As for “personal space” I really dislike my horse following far behind me, I don’t like it when any horse lags when being led, it’s annoying. Because my horse knows how to drive, he knows “cluck” or “move up” means pick up the pace. So, he is comfortable following 2-3 feet behind me, but if I cluck, that means get up here beside me. My horse can lead from anywhere, sometimes when it’s windy, I walk beside his hip and ask him to keep walking so he is my “windblock”. He is happy to do whatever I ask, and I like that.

I have found that a horse who “lags” when leading is also a horse who “lags” when being told to move forward under saddle. Not my style![/QUOTE]

Interesting about her facing me being a sign of being defensive! That makes sense, because sometimes while we’re still lunging she’ll stop and turn towards me, but I always make her keep going until stopping is my idea.

Sounds like your boy is very well trained!

[saultgirl]

As far as them putting their nose into your space, that’s something I really had to work on with my gelding.

He was just friendly/nosy, and I didn’t feed treats by hand, but while grooming/tacking he would be constantly trying to get in my face: “Whatcha doing? Whatcha doing? Whatcha doing now? How about Now?”

A couple of times while I was adjusting his bridle he actually knocked my glasses off. So yeah, I don’t allow him to put his nose in my space.

[Ennaleahcar]

That’s pretty much how mine is. She’s very curious! I can see why that would become an annoyance, though.

[BEARCAT]

Horses stay out of my space until they’ve earned the right to come into it.

By that I mean that I am very strict at the beginning with how they look at me (one eye only at first) and also that the shoulder ALWAYS moves away from me (again at the beginning.) When that has become an ingrained habit and I am as sure as I can be that the horse’s first instinct won’t be to run me over should he get startled, then we can move up to more advanced interaction. Trotting up to me when called, sidepassing over to me, backing into me when I cue from behind, etc. I don’t start with these unless I have a horse that very much understands staying out of my space. Then they get to come in when invited.

[Wish_Upon_a_Star2000]

My horse was very pushy when I got her, and she was in dire need of so many manners! So, to get her to respect my space, when I was leading her, I’d stop, give her a chance to stop, (which she would barely ever…Lol) and if she barged into me (which she also usually did!) she got backed up so fast. Then she would have to stand ‘at attention’ and with repetition and consistency, she gradually got the idea! As far as ‘leaning on me’, as some people call it when they stand right smack-dab beside, giving you no room, I’d get my elbow or a short crop, bat, (barrelracing bat) or stick, and hold it ( horizontally) at about the height of my hip,and if she went closer than that, she got poked.It was a comfortable way to teach her, she was surprised a few times to receive that poke, but she learned! To keep her eyes on me, and head and nose in line, I wiggle the leadrope the slightest bit, which results in TA-DA her attention, and she’s learned to keep focused! She’s still learning, as am I! But she’s doing really good with that! I hope you made sense of this, and have a great day!
P.S. and I also don’t allow her to come into my space until I give invitation, for her it doesn’t come easy!

[dungrulla]

[QUOTE=Wish_Upon_a_Star2000;7969618]
My horse was very pushy when I got her, and she was in dire need of so many manners! So, to get her to respect my space, when I was leading her, I’d stop, give her a chance to stop, (which she would barely ever…Lol) and if she barged into me (which she also usually did!) she got backed up so fast. Then she would have to stand ‘at attention’ and with repetition and consistency, she gradually got the idea! As far as ‘leaning on me’, as some people call it when they stand right smack-dab beside, giving you no room, I’d get my elbow or a short crop, bat, (barrelracing bat) or stick, and hold it ( horizontally) at about the height of my hip,and if she went closer than that, she got poked.It was a comfortable way to teach her, she was surprised a few times to receive that poke, but she learned! To keep her eyes on me, and head and nose in line, I wiggle the leadrope the slightest bit, which results in TA-DA her attention, and she’s learned to keep focused! She’s still learning, as am I! But she’s doing really good with that! I hope you made sense of this, and have a great day!
P.S. and I also don’t allow her to come into my space until I give invitation, for her it doesn’t come easy![/QUOTE]

Is this the same horse you have been having problems with?

As for backing up horses to teach them space, not a good idea. Backing up isn’t something your horse should be afraid of or reluctant to do.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I skimmed the article and don’t agree with her methods.

I agree that horses need to respect your space, however. Otherwise it would be hard to teach them to do certain things, like self-load into a trailer, or walk behind you on a lead, without the risk of being run over.

I establish respect for my space through groundwork and I use a rope halter, but not the way Julie Goodnight describes in her article.

I learned from my trainer, which really is the best way (having a live person right there with you who can coach you according to what the horse is doing). But some good resources to help you get the idea are Bill Dorrance’s book True Horsemanship Through Feel; Buck Brannaman’s book Groundwork; Buck’s work in the DVD Three Masters, Three Legends; and the first couple of discs of the 7 Clinics DVD series. If you’re like me, though, the most important thing is to work with a good groundwork trainer who can supervise you and correct your mistakes. Of which I make plenty.

To answer the nose question, though - it depends.

I have corrected my horse for turning his nose into me in some situations. For example, I go out to halter him, and instead of going with my cue to lower his head and move his head in my direction, he keeps his head up and pushes his nose towards me. So I gently but firmly push his cheek with the flat of my hand so he faces forward again.

But suppose I’m using a new piece of equipment or brushing him in one of those spots where he doesn’t like to be touched. In that case, I’m trying to get him comfortable and I’d probably allow him to turn his nose towards me to investigate or monitor what I’m doing. I think both horse and human have to respect the other’s right to protect him/herself.

[Ennaleahcar]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7969631]
I skimmed the article and don’t agree with her methods.

I agree that horses need to respect your space, however. Otherwise it would be hard to teach them to do certain things, like self-load into a trailer, or walk behind you on a lead, without the risk of being run over.

I establish respect for my space through groundwork and I use a rope halter, but not the way Julie Goodnight describes in her article.

I learned from my trainer, which really is the best way (having a live person right there with you who can coach you according to what the horse is doing). But some good resources to help you get the idea are Bill Dorrance’s book True Horsemanship Through Feel; Buck Brannaman’s book Groundwork; Buck’s work in the DVD Three Masters, Three Legends; and the first couple of discs of the 7 Clinics DVD series. If you’re like me, though, the most important thing is to work with a good groundwork trainer who can supervise you and correct your mistakes. Of which I make plenty.

To answer the nose question, though - it depends.

I have corrected my horse for turning his nose into me in some situations. For example, I go out to halter him, and instead of going with my cue to lower his head and move his head in my direction, he keeps his head up and pushes his nose towards me. So I gently but firmly push his cheek with the flat of my hand so he faces forward again.

But suppose I’m using a new piece of equipment or brushing him in one of those spots where he doesn’t like to be touched. In that case, I’m trying to get him comfortable and I’d probably allow him to turn his nose towards me to investigate or monitor what I’m doing. I think both horse and human have to respect the other’s right to protect him/herself.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice! I think my attitude towards personal space is the closest to yours. And I LOVE Buck! Great recommendations

[OveroHunter]

I’ve had 2 horses on polar ends of the “personal bubble spectrum” and one right in the middle. The first horse is very respectful of my space naturally. Never really had to train it into him. Another horse was very disrespectful and it took A LOT of ground work to get him to be respectful, but I always had to keep an eye on him. The one in the middle is just super friendly, people oriented and wants to get into your “bubble” sometimes and needs quick reminders that she is a horse.

For the one that needed a lot of work, I found that having a live person with me was the best. I thought I was doing a decent job working with him, until I saw a fantastic trainer work with him and realized there was a lot of room for improvement. If you’re close to GA, I recommend Sally Buffington. She’s an eventer and a fantastic trainer in that space and that’s what most people go to her for, but her ground work was amazing. I don’t think she touts herself as a groundwork trainer, but she really should because she was amazing at it.

[Bluey]

I think this is a good question everyone should ponder.

I have a horse that is so polite you may find yourself apologizing to him if you, the human, is not precise with what it asks of him.
He can teach humans about being respectful, he is so subtle about it.

Then, I have another horse that is a complete klutz about personal space, with himself, he walks around a gate and “misses” and hits the post with his shoulder or hip and does the same to other horses.
That makes him persona non grata, in a herd, everyone has to get after him to quit bumping on them and mind his manners.
Doesn’t do any good, I think he has a brain short circuit about that, just turned 13 and his previous history is that other horses kept running him off, he had to be kept by himself or a companion like a donkey or a very old horse.
I can see why, when feeding hay and he, eating with one horse and being timid wants to move over to another flake, he can’t think to go AROUND that horse, but either tries to plow right over him, or maybe tries to go around but misses and bumps into it’s hind end.
Yes, we have checked his eyes and ears, nothing wrong there, it is his brain, I think, is who he is.
With humans, you don’t have to get after him if he forgets himself and oversteps, just tell him and he will willingly be polite and stay back where you tell him, for as long as he remembers to do so.
The trouble, that is not long.
Getting after him really hurts his feeling, he is already trying, just not always getting it right.

We have to be aware what kind of horse we have and then apply any rules of thumb, as the one of what space, when and how to work with each horse, as we see necessary for the horse in front of us.

[Flash44]

I define “my space” as the point that a horse walks up to me and I feel pressure to move away to avoid being stepped on. If they get to close to me, the horse gets driven out of MY SPACE. If I get a new horse and it has issues with pushiness, we do a little groundwork until the horse gets the message.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Ennaleahcar;7969210]
I’ve been reading about groundwork quite a bit lately while working with my young mare, and I keep reading that it’s very important to not allow your horse to “come into your space.” Depending on what I’m reading, there are varying degrees of this; I was just reading this article (https://www.spalding-labs.com/community/julie_goodnight/w/faq/336.lead-line-leadership.aspx) where the trainer says that a horse moving even his nose towards you is a “cardinal sin” and should be disciplined immediately.

I get that your horse should respect your space and not shove you around, but not even letting him reach out to sniff you seems a bit extreme to me. Maybe I’m taking this too literally!

What do you guys think? How do you teach your horses to respect your space?[/QUOTE]

I think what is described in the article is a bit extreme. I don’t agree that the horse moving it’s nose towards its handler is a “cardinal sin”. I am interested in working with a living, breathing animal, not a robot which is what it kind of sounds like they want in that article. Maybe that’s not their intention, but it makes me feel like that when I read it.

There is a difference between a horse being curious and a horse being pushy. It’s all about the body language. People need to take all of that into account in my opinion.

If my horse walks up to me in the pasture and sticks his nose out to sniff me or to get a pat or a scratch, I don’t have a problem with that. If I go out with a feed bucket and he approaches me and tries to dive in without permission, then I wil ltell him to back off. Those tw situations are very different and require different responses.

All the horses I’ve owned have learned the “wait” command. I use it specifically during feeding times. When they see me approach with the feed bucket, I say “wait”, hold my hand up like a policeman at a traffic stop and they stand still while I put the feed in their bucket. When I put my hand down and say “ok” then they know it is acceptable to go ahead and start eating their meal.

[ybiaw]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7973040]

I have a horse that is so polite you may find yourself apologizing to him if you, the human, is not precise with what it asks of him.
He can teach humans about being respectful, he is so subtle about it.

Then, I have another horse that is a complete klutz about personal space, with himself, he walks around a gate and “misses” and hits the post with his shoulder or hip and does the same to other horses.
That makes him persona non grata, in a herd, everyone has to get after him to quit bumping on them and mind his manners.[/QUOTE]

OMG, Bluey. I have also had both of these horses.

@Flash44;7973054

I define “my space” as the point that a horse walks up to me and I feel pressure to move away to avoid being stepped on. If they get to close to me, the horse gets driven out of MY SPACE. If I get a new horse and it has issues with pushiness, we do a little groundwork until the horse gets the message.

Yes! Agree with this!

Both of my horses were taught what “Stand.” means. My WB was especially good about it. I could just loop a lead rope over his neck and say “Ok, stand there.” and walk away to grab some stuff out of the tack room, get distracted, come back 5 minutes later and he’s still just standing there like, “Um…ok…”

Aside from “Stand”, however, my QHs vocabulary consisted of such gems as “Knock it off!” “MOVE!” “Get out of the tackroom!” and “QUIT!” :lol:

[clanter]

[QUOTE=Ennaleahcar;7969210]

I get that your horse should respect your space [/QUOTE]

today I always get a smile as there were several days that I would stop by the house during the day when the kids were growing up to find they had our Morgan horse in the house watching TV together as it was too hot outside (or last that was the reason they gave me).

The horse never harmed a thing in the house, just acted like she belonged there