How do I get a horse to move in the round pen when he doesn't want to?

[pal-o-mino]

I end up chasing him around like an idiot. He’s three and a half, so I didn’t want to put him on a smaller circle because I was afraid for his joints. I have to stay within a whip’s length of him or else he’ll just do whatever he wants, as in, not move, slow down, sniff poop, etc. He also does it on the lunge line. I’m trying to get him to behave and listen before he goes under saddle and he does neither. He tends to do what he wants when he wants, thus the only way to keep his attention is to be within rump-snapping distance. However, that is getting old, meaning, I’m old and I can’t keep chasing him around. Do I need to put him on a smaller circle for little bits of time or what do I do?

PS he does it with other horses too, he ends up full of bite marks because he just won’t listen!

PPS I don’t lunge or round pen him for very long, just trying to build up some muscle and stamina. Maybe 10-15 mins tops and it’s a big circle. I think I work out more than he does.

Tips? Thanks!

[analise]

Might help to do straight up ground work with him first and make sure he’s fully respectful of what you want him to do on a leadrope first. Focus on making him move his feet.

In the round pen…maybe it’s time to tie the plastic bag to the end of the lunge whip and see if that motivates him.

[rabicon]

Have you let him know you mean it when you say forward? Or do you just chase him around and threaten him?

[BarbaricYawp]

You don’t say whether he is a gelding or a colt. If the latter you may need to be a little more forceful initially to get his attention, since stud colts are mostly interested in seeing who is in the neighborhood and whether they have a shot at them. Actually even if he’s a gelding you may need to be more forceful since apparently he doesn’t associate the whip with anything in particular. We have a center pole in our roundpen (supports the roof) and since I’m hopeless when it comes to cracking whips in midair I snap the whip against that pole. If that noise doesn’t get their attention, one lash across the hocks will usually help them associate the whip with a reason to move, but try the noisemaking first.

[red_mares]

A Tide bottle with some rocks in it can do wonders. If the noise doesn’t get him moving, bounce it off his butt. It won’t hurt, but it will get his attention. The next time you shake it, he’ll scoot right along.

[HungarianHippo]

^^ Agree it’s a symptom of gaps in the basics of respecting his handler, not understanding that he has a job. No matter what, you are 100% right that you physically chasing him is not the right lesson to teach. Just back up a few steps, don’t lose hope. All he’s telling you is that he doesn’t understand the language. Imagine you go visit France or Germany and you understand a bit of the language but you’re not fluent. When you don’t quite get what the shopkeeper says to you, does it help if they start saying it very loudly and faster? (kinda what you’re doing) Or would it be better and less frustrating for you if they instead slowed down and chose a more simple way to say it?

Based on the above, I’m willing to guess he’s not bright and snappy in responding to your requests when you’re working in hand-- does he promptly walk on and whoa when you give the verbal request and without needing to put tension on the leadrope? If not, go back and work on the in hand obedience. Insist, and I mean INSIST, on response to your verbal commands when he’s on the lead, every time. So: I’ve got my right hand on the lead about 8-12" below his chin, lead is not held tight. I want space to move my hand visibly forward, and also space to be able to reach up and quickly give a “Good boy!” pet or scratch on his neck. In Left hand I’ve got a dressage or driving whip that’s long enough to tap his barrel or ideally HQ. Practice on a fence or building, until you can give a quick, sharp tap to the fence with minimal movement of your left hand. You don’t want to have to turn away from him make some dramatic wind up motion with your arm to deliver the prompt correction.
(I’m not a fan of twirling the leadrope behind me, mainly b/c I’m not coordinated enough to snap it quickly to get that immediate correction.
Horse needs to step out upon the voice command Walk On, and my hand that’s holding the lead moves forward. If he doesn’t, left hand delivers a tap or multiple taps or a sharp smack as needed until he moves out. Go 5-10 steps or so, whoa, rinse and repeat. Similar approach to the Whoa command-- insist every time that he whoas when you do, based on verbal and body language and not pulling on the lead. (obviously not using the whip for correction–have a shank over the nose, or use rope halter or what have you).
Practice with the longe whip until you can deliver a loud crack with the lash. With the basics properly installed you shouldn’t have to resort to that but it’s one way to deliver an emphatic “DO IT!!” if he’s not listening.

[ByTheBook]

Hit amazon and buy a copy of 101 Longing and Long Lining exercises. This book will give you a very complete idea of where you need to be to increase and decrease the horse’s pace on and off of a longe. At 3, light longing is okay, but I agree with others here that you need to teach him forward first. I do not agree with doing it on a lead. He should lead well, halt without question, yield the fore and hind upon request, and even back on request on the lead, but the ‘go forward’ (at anything beyond very basic leading forward and halting from lead line cues) is safest and easiest in an enclosed pen. After he’s operating well at liberty in the round pen, add the longe line.

[joiedevie99]

Those skills should be taught first in hand on a lead line. It sounds like he’s got some gaps there and needs to go back to walk, halt, walk, trot, halt, etc. in hand until he gets it.

[Aggie4Bar]

He should be very clear on the concepts of yielding toward or away from you, sideways or forward, in close proximity before you attempt to send him out on the longe. Otherwise, your body language means nothing.

Right now, you’re working too hard, and the lessons he’s learning are that he’s in charge of the “game”. I would not recommend continuing on the current path lest you end up dulling the horse and teaching/encouraging disrespect. Right now, you’re less interesting to him than old poop, which is NOT beneficial toward developing submission and acceptance for future backing.

[Niennor]

Letting a whip crack next to a lazy horse’s bum usually does the trick.

[Cindyg]

I think it’s an excellent question.

I didn’t want to pop the whip at mine, and I couldn’t get him out of my face.

My instructor had me keep him on a line short enough that I could reach him, and then pop the whip on the ground behind me, lifting it up and out so I got a loud pop, but it wasn’t anywhere near the horse. It did work.

As far as not wanting to strain his legs with a small circle – once you have his attention and compliance, you can stop. Really, the transition is what you want. you don’t need to do 32 circles after that.

[goodhors]

Good grief, what is so bad about actually USING the whip, to get the forward you want?? Having a whip with sufficient length of lash, to “reach out and touch him” lightly is usually only needed one or two times. Horse QUITS ignoring you when he gets lightly touched. After that lesson, snap of lash end is enough to keep him moving at the speed you want. Chasing the horse with a short lash (6ft or less) whip, is an exercise in futility, horse quickly thinks this is a FUN game!

We do a lot of long-lining, where we have control of entire horse, rather than lunging. We find it easier to get the horse progressing consistently in long lines, than lunging where they can escape or do things wrong out there on the line.

We use a lightweight whip stick, lash is light and LONG, about 18ft, so we CAN reach horse if needed. Whip is a tool for touching him, not letting horse ignore your directions, not an abusive device when used correctly. Our horses are doing big circles out on the long lines, making 60 to 70ft circles, changing speed, direction, dragging things as requested, as they learn.

Here anyway, horse going into long lines KNOWS his ground work, is well mannered to handle, respectful of his handler, works with vocal commands. So then he already understands what you ask, just is now doing it out further from the person holding the lines. Whip spends most of the time being dragged behind the handler, but ALWAYS in hand if needed. When you ASK vocally for a change by horse, you don’t ask 2-3-4 or MORE times before getting after him with a whip touch. Waiting just teaches him to wait, UNTIL the whip touch. Ask once, let him respond. No response? Then you ask again vocally and with the whip touch together to get IMMEDIATE response to the command. Asking with no follow up, is worse “untraining” to me, than touching horse with the whip so he connects things quickly.

Truly is only a touch with the lash end, we are not snapping and popping the whip to mentally stress the horse. He gets a touch when he ignores a command, otherwise whip is quiet, not busy flying around to scare or bother him.

For learning to just touch a horse, you may need to put in some time working with a good whip stick, long lash, so you can place the lash where needed, with light or firmer touch when it lands.

We make our own lunge whips, add the lash length needed to reach horse out there on the long lines. Stick is light, easy to balance with that long lash, doesn’t kill your wrist while you hold it during the training time. I can’t use a commercially made lunge whip, they are clumsy, top-heavy, and lashes are way too short to reach the horse out there.

[arlosmine]

This horse is demonstrating that you have done a great job training him to ignore you, and you need to change that the way another horse would. You need a whip long enough to tough the horse on the gaskin. (A LONG well balanced whip) One flick in the direction of the gaskin, then maybe then one light touch there…and if there is no response, one good POP on the bum. You won’t traumatized him if you always give him an opportunity to listen to a consistent quiet command, followed by a consequence for the command being ignored.

Don’t pop the whip all over and make a bunch of noise…just flick it at him like fly fishing, then nail him once (yes it will shock him). You won’t have to do it at all often unless you are inconsistent with your expectations and follow through.

The whip is an extention of your hand. If you told him to move over when you were standing next to him and he ignored you to smelled poo, I HOPE you’d back up the request with a qick “pop”. Just because he is further away from you should not make the rules any different.

[Cindyg]

[QUOTE=Cindyg;7249069]
…I didn’t want to pop the whip at mine…[/QUOTE]

@goodhors;7249218

Good grief, what is so bad about actually USING the whip, to get the forward you want??

Just my personal preference.

[Aggie4Bar]

Going back and re-reading your original post, I want to add that it isn’t necessary at this stage of the game to be concerned with muscle and stamina. If he has adequate turnout, he’ll be fine. What you should be working on at this stage is obedience.

Working at short increments in a small circle is fine. The idea is to have the horse’s attention and be able to move his feet. At this point, getting his attention may require a rather “loud” action on your part, but the ultimate objective is to be able to make quiet requests with an instant response.

Chasing is not “loud”. He can outrun you. But I wouldn’t hesistate to throw the loops of the longe line at his lazy butt or actually crack him with the whip a time or two. Make it worth his while to keep an eye on you. A 5-minute session in which he spends the entire time studying you, responding to you, and deep in thought licking and chewing over the changes taking place in his life is far (far!) more productive than 30 minutes of cat-and-mouse.

[Laurierace]

Why bother having a whip if you aren’t going to use it?

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Cindyg;7249301]
Just my personal preference.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to say this, but I am willing to guess we will be seeing more posts asking for help on “how to get my horse to …?”, because you are unwilling to actually take charge of your herd of you and horse. Horse is in charge and sounds like he is playing with you. You are not willing to change your method, so he will stay in charge.

Whip is the most effective, quickest and easiest tool to reach out and touch him with when he needs that touch to go forward. Don’t need to be popping it all the time, also a mostly wasted effort because sound does nothing to him. YOU control how lightly you touch him with it, show him he is NOT out of reach, so GET TO WORK as requested! Surprise element of touch, is worth a LOT to keep yourself as “head mare” moving him as you wish.

None of our horses are afraid of a whip, no more than a bridle scares them. Just a tool to use in getting them trained.

[pal-o-mino]

OK, I’ll try a smaller circle. And I do use a whip on his butt, but he knows when I can’t reach him, thus the chasing. If I’m in the middle, he won’t move. I have to stay with him a whips length away, which gets me out of breath quick in a big round pen. I need him to learn to move even when I can’t reach him, but know I mean it and I will. I wouldn’t mind going after him once in a while, but what I’m doing now is ridiculous.

[Aggie4Bar]

[QUOTE=pal-o-mino;7249682]
OK, I’ll try a smaller circle. And I do use a whip on his butt, but he knows when I can’t reach him, thus the chasing. If I’m in the middle, he won’t move. I have to stay with him a whips length away, which gets me out of breath quick in a big round pen. I need him to learn to move even when I can’t reach him, but know I mean it and I will. I wouldn’t mind going after him once in a while, but what I’m doing now is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

It sounds as though the round pen you’re using is too large to be effective for what you want. Put him on a longe line instead. Demand he keeps an eyeball on you and steps forward or sideways at your command. Looking outside the circle is a no-no. Be prepared for some drama queen antics and woohoos until he figures out, “Oh, crap, she’s serious.”

[rabicon]

Also on the lunge line make sure you don’t block him up front. He needs to know you mean it and it may take a couple times of tapping him with the whip more than a fly to get his attention