Hello all!
Recently I acquired a new trail/project horse for my mom! He is a western trained horse and pretty fearless on the trails. I invited my good friend to help train him (she has been around horses for 6 or 7 years). Today as I was lounging him i noticed some things that made me second think having her train him. He was very fearful of the whip and was clacking on the bit (nervous habit). Every time I would get the whip near his hind end he would rush off in a trot showing the whites of his eyes. By the end of the lunge session he was more relaxed but many times i had to drop the whip completely. Another thing he was doing was switching direction when I moved the whip anywhere near his shoulder, so I couldnât ask him to move out without him changing direction and again fearfully trotting off.
I do know this is because of my friend as when I catch glimpses of her sessions with him he is in a tight circle around her (he is 15 years old) and she is using the whip very excessively. She uses the Clinton Anderson (just going to use CA from now on) method on him and she constantly is doing things you would do to a young un-broke horse even though he is an experienced trail horse. I have told her to not use the CA method on him many times but she doesnât stop. Now personally based on my horses personalities I would never use the CA method on them, as I feel it doesnât fit either of them. I have also noticed he has been more fearful in general and hates being worked by her.
Now this is a close friend and I donât want to ruin my relationship with her over this, how do i politely ask her to not train my horse any longer.
Thanks in advance!
update
i talked to her about it and it all went down well! i told her she could still ride him out on trails but just not to train him any longer. thank you to everyone who helped me and gave me confidence to tell her this!
Lose a friend or try to use a frightened horse? I presume your mother is older, would like to ride a calm, settled horse instead of a scaredy, twitchy horse.
You have to just tell âfriendâ that her methods are not working for this horse. He is over reacting, giving bad reactions to signals, so she needs to quit handling him. He wonât work for your Mom in this condition.
it may be hard, she could take offense when telling her to quit handling him. You can always sell the horse if you want to keep her as a friend more.
She sounds like a one-method trainer, domination, which of course does not suit every horse. Let the horse go if you donât want to argue about it, but QUIT letting her torment this nice older horse. He doesnât deserve being treated so badly. Let someone else own him, enjoy him for what he is.
There is no good way to tell someone that uses CA methods they are not right.
Anyone that follows CA are just a bit too quick and rough, is what those methods require.
Take that bull by the horns and flat tell her the horse is getting spooky and not to touch him again.
You want him pokey and slow and quiet for your mother and if she wants him more up at times, she can do that herself.
This may be more important than a friendship that depends on you playing floor mat to what your friend wants to do with your horse.
What kind of friendship is that?
Real friendship is based on mutual respect.
If she gets mad, she was not your friend but using you and when you donât play along not a friend any more.
Do you really want that kind of friend?
What are you trying to get from training of any kind for a 15yo trail horse. If anything he needs correct mounted riding either in the ring or on the trails, not pounding around in mindless circles.
Go to her and simply say he needs a different program.
With a lack of knowledge being demonstrated on the ground, I would say having been around horses 6 years means she hasnt any training process.
The horse is your first concern.
It is not any kind of real friendship that means letting a horse stress so as not to confront the human that is stressing it.
Stand up for your horse, is the first and right thing to do.
Youâve asked Friend âmany timesâ to stop using CA methods on your horse.
Friend is still doing it.
This is not a friend.
If the horse is at her house, go get him tomorrow. If the horse is boarded, or at your house, simply tell her straight-up, âHey, Iâve asked you several times not to use the CA methods on my horse. Youâre still doing it. I canât have you working with him anymore.â I wouldnât lie; Iâd tell her flat-out why youâre removing her from the scene. She needs to know. Boundaries need to be set.
Itâs your horse. Like Bluey said, he depends on you to stand up for him and do whatâs right.
âHi! Thanks for agreeing to help me when I picked up (horse). Now I know him better Iâve realized that I need to approach his training differently than I initially anticipated. I will be doing all of his training from here out - thank you so much for the assist up to this point!â
Sounds like you value your friendship, but just have a difference of training style. Leave it at the differences in training style without making things a personal attack.
Maybe try something like - I really appreciate the time youâve put in to my horse- you are a really great friend! I think that by using different methods though, we might be confusing him, and that isnât fair to the horse. I think I am ready to take over his training now, I think the consistency will be good for him.
Something along these lines lets your friend know you value her, doesnât attack her methods, and is gentle enough that it should preserve your friendship with no hard feelings.
If she gets insistent and things get uncomfortable, youâll need to be more assertive.
Itâs incredible how quickly horses training/ behavior can decline, and how long it takes to correct it.
Over a month ago I was hired to replace a BM that had become bad news over the course of her employment. I found the horses head-shy, rammy, led poorly and just generally PIAs to be around. Fast forward to last weekend when the new hire started. Iâm back again after 2 days off⊠and once again, horses are jerking their heads away as I approach with halters, or reach to clear a forelock from their eyes, sitting on me when picking feet and lagging behind by 6â instead of keeping up as we walk.
OP; Forget hurting feelings. Just tell this person they are done âtrainingâ your horse; make up whatever excuses you can. But do it now. Because youâve got your work cut out for you detoxing your horses from her methods.
Agree with the above - there is probably no way to do this without simply being direct. âSusie, thanks for your help. I am going to take over training the horse by myself at this point, because I think weâre giving mixed messages to him and itâs not working.â (Escalate from there, if necessary.)
But I do have to agree further - what is the point of the âtraining?â How many horses has this girl trained in the past, and to do what?
It sounds like she has no training experience - not sure why you would have invited her to be part of the process already, except to give her experience. Which, isnât working for the horse.
If the horse needs âtrainingâ - hire a trainer with proven experience.
OPâdo as other suggest and thank your friend, but donât let her keep doing what makes you uncomfortable. I am extremely cautious of letting anyone ride either of my two horses because it seems EVERYONE wants to train as they ride.
Hey, Bluey! I use CA and Iâm not âquick and roughâ!! I am constant and clear with my cues. Any trainerâs methods can be misinterpreted and/or abused. Thereâs a fellow fox hunter who has sent a number of horses to CA for complete training, and his wife has done the entire CA course with CA. Yesterday, Will, my new young hunter, was doing his âspringbokâ canter --he canters, soft on the bit, but is very vertical and collected --while I prefer at that moment that he be in a relaxed canter. Anyway, at a check, the CA practicing member said when I asked for suggestions, said, âyou are over flexing,â now thatâs a CA âthingâ I learned from my CA DVDs --flexing to keep horse supple. Since I thought Will was over collecting because he was tense, I went to flexing, so I said, âhuh?â he said, âThe correct CA response would be to push the horse into the bit with leg pressure then relax when he extends.â Ohhhhhhh âand he suggested a couple of CA exercises when I am working on the flat at home --I immediately at the next opportunity tried what he said when we began to canter again, and Will leveled out and was much, much better â
Now probably most people would have thought of that idea to correct an overly collected horse, but I am so âJohnny One Noteâ that when I have a horse training problem, I go to the one trailer I âknowâ better than any other --CA --not that I think heâs the best, but because I have watched all his DVDs and found that if I interpret them correctly (as I clearly did not here) they work better than nothing. Because, Bluey, nothing is my second choice. There are no as in NO trainers within 2 hours of me.
Anyway, wanted you to know that I am NOT quick or rough, but I do have a very, very well trained horse --and yes, he needed improvement yesterday and I fell short --but over all --heâs amazing â
I know, no one that uses CA will ever but sing their praises, is why they use his training techniques.
In my opinion, CA is amazing, is a great teacher, is extremely effective as a trainer.
What he is also, he has a very strong seat and legs and little finesse in his hands.
He way overbends his horses as a way to control their forward and still keep the horses in front of the leg.
He had for long time a problem with his horses then dropping the inside shoulder, he just didnât seem to have that concept or feel for it.
His training would even on handling horses on the ground have horses scooting around and not really learning to work in balance.
He is just now, as he is heavily into todayâs way more exacting reining training, learning to ease up, not be so extreme, get a little lighter with his aids, balancing the horse first, correct first, over getting results on the go.
He still has a way to go, but horses others trained well teach you and he has plenty of those to ride today.
Since most riders are not CA, but under his instruction try to imitate him, they tend to be a bit too quick, a bit too handsy, somewhat impatient, not waiting on the horse enough, requiring first a response, any response, some horses getting a bit frantic trying so hard to get what they are aiming for.
A difference in training, some like correct first, reactive later.
He wants a horse very active first, then try to guide into correct, which does work for him, but leaves holes in the horseâs training, that later show up, as in reining competition.
Just remember, is ok to be a taskmaster, as long as you have a very clear idea of where you are going and what you want your student to learn and give time for learning to happen.
CA blames what he does to having âdifficultâ horses.
True that, fair excuse.
The trouble is, like lying or stealing, the more you go there with horses being a bit rougher and stronger than necessary, the more that may become your standard, as long as it keeps working.
As a true horseman, anyone will tell you you never quit learning and correcting what you did that now you know better than going there.
CA is in that path now.
I expect in a few more years we will be seeing, since he is such a public figure, a much better, quieter, smoother trainer than we have seen in the past.
Anyone can learn from anyone and you are right, there is much to learn from CA and much that is very good.
There is also some that some donât really care for, that gives pause.
Pointing that out is how the horse world keeps improving.
Horsemanship every decade or two is so, so much better all around, if you look around and CA has been and still is part of it.
OP and Bluey â OP your friend is misunderstanding CA if she has made your horse âafraid of the whipâ while lunging or any other time. The second lesson of the DVD series Gaining Control and Respect on the Ground, by CA shows the horse handler how to train the horse NOT to be afraid of the whip [I think the first lesson is how to put on the halter and hold the rope]âIn lesson 2-one has the whip (actually the stick and string thing) an stands to one side of the horse loosely holding the lead rope. The whip is then used to hit the ground. This hitting the ground continues until the horse stops moving his/her feet, and stands quietly (blinking, breath, licking lips is good too --but feet must stop moving) the SECOND the feet stop moving, the hitting the grounds stops too. Pretty quick horses learn that if they donât react (move feet, act scared) the whip stops hitting the ground. Eventually the handler moves the whip closer and does the same thing. Ultimately, the lash can be âwhippedâ around the horseâs body, legs, belly (very, very softly) and he does not react. It can also be violently cracked and whipped around the entire horse, and the horse does not react.
Secondly, Bluey (based only on my DVD watching) one thing CA says over and over is "let the horse make the mistake, then correct him. This is really hard for me, but I keep trying. I tend to do what CA calls âbabysitâ and anticipate horse making the error, and correct him too soon.
As for âhandsy ridingâ I defer to you on that âhowever, both my hunt horses work best without contact on the bit --a loose to âloopyâ rein --except when jumping, then Iâll pick up the reins. Speed, stops, starts, turns all all done with seat and legs. And this is one reason OP I do NOT let most people ride my horses. Those who ride English tend to âover rideâ my horses --and as I wrote awhile back, I let one woman ride one of the boys whom I THOUGHT understood me when I said, âloose contact, leave him alone, let him do his job.â She must have become nervous because the second we were on the field, she tried to put horse âin a frame.â Although I cautioned her a few times, she continued to use spur âto bring him under and lift him,â and reins to âcollectâ him. âHorse put up with it for awhile -then in frustration bucked her off. [one giant buck] That horse had NEVER bucked before, and never lost a rider on the hunt field (or any place else as far as I know and Iâve had him 12 years. Oh, and horse did it at a stand still --at a check --he knew that was his time to relax and she kept spur and hand active as if he were to âhalt at Aâ â
And as I said, I do not consider CA the âone and onlyâ or âthe bestâ --just something that works for me. I like John Lyonâs too --but I donât have a set of his DVDs . . .I do CAs.
Agree 1000% with those saying friend needs to be cut off ASAP.
6 or 7 years hardly qualifies this Novice as any sort of trainer. Period.
Be nice.
Be not so nice.
But advocate for the horse, who has plainly shown you friendâs methods are not working as intended.
I have no beef with CA, except to say his methods are not for those with little ability to read a horseâs behavior.
Watching a video or TV show is no good way for a Novice to learn the subtleties necessary.
I donât know in Canada, but in the US, RFD-TV had, may still have, CA programs for years.
You could see what he was doing and why and hear him talking about it clearly.
Everyone that watched any of that would have decided by themselves what they thought about those many, many interesting TV training programs.
He also gave tours and came by here on two day clinics/demonstrations that were free for 4H groups, very nice of him, how we got to see him train in person.
He was definitely better than most others, just maybe a little too demanding, compared with standard horse training.
I agree that level of demanding doesnât really fit beginners that donât have developed any timing yet.
That may be where OPâs friend trying to re-train this horse could be failing.
