How do you sit in reinback?

[the_sandiest_shoes]

I’ve heard mixed approaches on RB - trainers who say to sit light / lean very slightly forward, and those who say to push weight back and down.

Trying to improve my reinback on my maresy who hates it. She hated halt from day one, has improved on halts now, though RB was the WORST and HATED it at first (on the ground it’s fine, just like halt, under saddle YUCK). She’s much, much improved on RB now but still a challenge - she’s so against diagonal pairs. She’ll stick her front legs forward sometimes and lean back instead of walking backwards, to the point where it looks like she’s trying to bow in a circus (I had her vetted and she’s fine/ she isn’t sore back there). Mostly she’ll do it but tense her back and then angrily step one foot at a time more often than smoothly back in pairs. When she does a nice relaxed two diagonal steps back these days I jump off, give her sugar and throw her a party…it’s helping but it’s been such a challenge…

So curious on tips on training RB/ how you’ve learned it. It seems like there’s a variety of approaches? I don’t know what’s best.

[Kyrabee]

Well I am no one (training experience wise) but I tend to sit light (no leaning forward), close the front door (no pulling just not allowing forward), move my lower legs slightly back and alternate leg aids. My mare is quite handy at RB and can promptly go from RB to any gait which tells me it is fairly correct. I always think of RB as a forward movement just like w/t/c.

Do you have someone that can help you from the ground? You say she backs well from the ground. Perhaps is you get a helper, she can get the connection between the ground RB and the under saddle RB.

Susan

[MapleBreeze]

It sounds like your mare needs to practice this in hand first.

[CHT]

Have you considered having someone give the cue on the ground while you ask lightly from the saddle? I slightly lighten my seat for rein back to free up the back, but it’s just a subtle shift.

[lorilu]

Since you say she’s fine in hand, how about having someone on the ground helping as you sit in the saddle?
And, I also sit lightly, slight forward intention (not really a “lean”), close hands, use legs.

[lorilu]

great minds !!!

[MapleBreeze]

Is your saddle blocking her shoulders or pushing down to heavy and pinching?

Can you back to the end of the arena and back 2x in hand with her headvand neck stretching down?

When she reinbacks in hand is herneck up and braced or down? If its braced, you gotta fix that before its worth trying under saddle.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

That’s a good idea to ask someone to help her in hand while I’m under saddle - I’m sure we could practice in hand more. We DID just get our saddle fixed today because it was slipping a lot - that makes a lot of sense that it could have been blocking her shoulder!

[theresak]

I sit light and legs back. Sitting back to me is a signal for the horse to sit down and power forward…

I have a sticky backer-upper and do it with my voice now and did have someone on the ground a number of times touch his chest. If he gets stuck on the first step and I don’t have someone to help I can usually lightly tap my whip on his chest from the saddle while I say back and that gets his feet moving. He does get exceptionally above the bit at times, but right now I’m just asking for prompt steps backwards.

[merrygoround]

In reinback, lighten your seat behind, keep the legs on , close the fingers lightly in a squeeze L, squeeze R feel. By lightening your seat without leaning forward and gently squeezing the fingers, you’re asking the horse to move while opening the “back” door, and giving him a place to move to.

If first starting from the ground, use the one word “Back!”, then repeat this while in the saddle.

[endlessclimb]

Along with a ground helper, it’s one of those things that doesn’t come naturally to most horses. You have to do it to get better at it, so more backing so she can figure out her balance and the cadence while doing it. I would not be picky to start - Back from x to y, good girl, have a pat. Repeat 10x a session. Don’t get weird about footfalls that aren’t correct, diagonal this or whatever - you just need it to be fluid and without angst.

Once you can get consistent motion in the R direction, THEN you can start being picky about how it gets done. But you have to DO it to get better at it, and just like a human when they’re first learning something nit picking kills the desire to try.

[Jealoushe]

Sit as I do in the halt. Very very still, legs back when asking for the aid.

How to Rein Back!!!

[JB]

@Kyrabee

I always think of RB as a forward movement just like w/t/c.

Eggggzactly, everything is a “forward” movement, whether it’s actually going forward, or turn on the haunches, or yes, a rein back.

@the_sandiest_shoes

So curious on tips on training RB/ how you’ve learned it.

How are you actually asking her to move backwards?

Backwards isn’t a natural movement for horses, they’ll spin on their haunches to back away from almost everything. But the diagonal movement IS natural for walking backwards. The fact that she’s leaning backwards suggests you’re trying to pull her backwards.

Asking for the RB in the saddle is asking her to walk forward, but closing the door with your hands, so that her movement has to be, eventually, backwards. You can try teaching that concept by starting in front of a fence.

What are you doing when she angrily steps one foot at a time? Sometimes you have to just get them moving forward again, hot off your leg, and start over.

If she’s all fine with a halt and RB in hand, then something about the saddle fit or how you’re asking, is the issue. If you’re sitting too heavy, it’s not comfortable for her to lift her back which is required to do a proper RB. If you’re pulling her into it, you’re causing her to drop her neck and back, which makes it all but impossible to do a nice diagonal movement.

[sascha]

@Kyrabee

I always think of RB as a forward movement just like w/t/c.

It is not a forward movement. Nothing about rein back is forwards except that the horse should want to move forwards at any time once the aids for rein back are released. The muscles used are different. The way the muscles are used is different. The direction the horse travels is different. It is not a forward movement at all.

Dressage is already difficult enough. We don’t need to tell people that something is something it is not to make it even more confusing.

I wish we could all embrace the simplicity instead of getting mired in nonsensical bafflegab. Note, simplicity doesn’t mean the sport is easy, but the principals certainly should be!

[anon55755751]

Lighten seat (and I do lean slightly forward, and bring my heels back to support the hind end straightness).

Training: It starts from the quality of the halt. If you have to do a lot of work to ask the horse to back, whether there is a mental component for the mare or not, the difficulty increases the more on the forehand the horse is. So just like everything else in dressage, be honest about whether you have the HALT you want before you worry about asking for the horse to back.

Since it sounds like the halt is also an issue, I would really focus on that first. If your mare has any downward transition that she can do from behind, I would do a few of those really well, then do walk-halt or trot-halt a few times WELL (whichever makes more sense for the mare’s level of training), then do one or two more of the transitions she already likes, then do some forward work or otherwise reward.

If all of that is an issue, go back to in-hand walk-halt-walk, horsemanship class-like. Good thing about this, is that you can practice any time you are leading the horse. She doesn’t need to be ‘working’.

[JB]

It is a forward movement in terms of what the horse’s body is doing, how he’s thinking, not the direction he’s moving.

If a horse can’t immediately go from a RB to a walk, much less anything else, he’s not forward

Rein-Back (aka Backing Up) the Right Way | HORSE NATION

[JB]

IMHO it’s very important to always be talking about “forward”. Turn on the haunches is a forward movement. Pirouette is a forward movement. “Forward” doesn’t simply mean physically moving forward. It’s the mental state of the horse - is he thinking “forward” at all times. The held halt, such as after coming down the center line, is a forward halt, because that horse has to be ready to move off immediately. Sitting there at a halt with loose reins, just hanging out, that’s not forward. But pick up the reins, ask the horse to gather himself, and you have “forward”

A pivot, like done in the Western world, isn’t forward, there’s no activation of the hind end at all, the inside hind is always planted, unlike the ToH which has the hind legs walking, no matter how small the circle.

Everything in Dressage/dressage is forward, independent of the actual direction of travel

[sascha]

@JB

It is a forward movement in terms of what the horse’s body is doing, how he’s thinking, not the direction he’s moving.

No, it is not. If the horse’s body is doing something like going forward, it is going forward. It is not going forward in rein back. It is, in fact, moving backwards. If the horse is thinking’s it’s going forward, it’s either fighting going backwards or is actually going forwards. Horses just aren’t that stupid. They know the difference between moving forwards, halting, and reining back, and they absolutely 100% know that reining back is not going forwards and is actually something that can be a bit frightening because it isn’t a movement they would choose to make under normal, relaxed circumstances.

Absolutely agree that the horse should be ready at any moment to move forwards. That does not negate the fact that the horse is going backwards.

It does everyone who is trying to figure this not so easy movement out a huge disservice to tell them it’s a forward movement and to ride it like it is a forward movement. Further, it does a disservice to their horses as they will be getting mixed messages from the rider instead of a straight forward (pardon the pun) group of aids that ask for backwards movement.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Our halt has come a very long way in three years but definitely still needs work. I can tell the two issues are related. I’m sure as she gets more relaxed about halt-go-halt-go, she’ll be better about RB too.

We’ve been showing third this year and we have gotten consistently 5s/ 6s on that RB-trot out - the tests average 65, so it’s been a real good clue about our connection that gets hidden in other movements that come more easily to her. Her hind end definitely needs to get stronger and we’re working on that too - I need to work hard not to have her headstand into downward transitions, so none of this is a big surprise.

A trainer I have now talks about sitting heavy and back for RB, which I’ve never heard (though I read some other trainer blog that talks about this method) - this thread is consistent with what I’ve learned. The mare also is picky about legs back on her sides - I consciously ride her with a forward leg aid (an amazing clinician that gave us big break throughs this year suggested this approach to me, saying some mares are really better with keeping legs forward). I have another clinic with him in October and will ask him to help on RB! Thanks everyone.

I get the idea of it being “forward” in the sense that they have to be moving off you aids, because when she’s in her dull mode there’s no way. But yes it is literally backwards and I can tell it’s tough for her mentally. And not for nothing, that messed up saddle surely didn’t help things! Glad to have that fixed now. I’ll also work more on this on the ground - the cool thing about this horse is that when she really gets something, she gets it (as learned on my changes training and our canter/walks earlier). Just takes time! Thanks all!

[Jealoushe]

I think you are misinterpreting what they mean by “forward”. Forward thinking…positive engagement.