How do you sit in reinback?

[JB]

Of course it’s literally backwards in direction
I posted the link I did because it’s words from those who are way way wayyyyyyy more accomplished in this than I am, to point out the use of forward in describing the rein back.

I’ve explained several times that we have to think of ALL work in riding as “forward”, even if the direction of movement isn’t forward.

“Forward” is the only think that activates the hind end, gives impulsion, creates the rear-wheel drive horse.

@Jealoushe

I think you are misinterpreting what they mean by “forward”. Forward thinking…positive engagement

Yes, exactly, I thought I was pretty clear in the difference.

Ride forward into the halt. Ride forward into downward transitions. Just as you ride forward into upward transitions.

[Jealoushe]

@the_sandiest_shoes

The mare also is picky about legs back on her sides

This is something you can easily work on. Start daily, she will get over it.

[sascha]

I don’t think I’m misinterpreting this at all:

@JB

It is a forward movement in terms of what the horse’s body is doing

The horse’s body is not doing anything that is forwards. Not using the muscles in the same way at all.

And if the horse is constantly thinking “I want to go forwards right now!” you are not going to have a relaxed, correct rein back. The horse should be thinking about putting its feet where the rider is asking for them to go in a relaxed and purposeful manner. Thinking forwards and being prepared to go forwards are not the same thing.

Rein back is already hard enough. We don’t need to make it harder for either horse or rider!

[the_sandiest_shoes]

I mean, I use a back leg for canter aids/ changes/ HP - it needs to go back sometimes. She’s just more dull/ tenser to a back leg pressure. Two GP mare riders I’ve ridden with tell me about using my leg closer to the girth most times. I will also ask them about this issue too.

She really has improved on RB immensely in a year - I need to be more patient I think and also focus more on it.

[sascha]

@JB

“Forward” is the only think that activates the hind end, gives impulsion, creates the rear-wheel drive horse.

No, it is not. A good, relaxed rein back will develop rear-wheel drive in a horse.

[JB]

@the_sandiest_shoes

I need to work hard not to have her headstand into downward transitions, so none of this is a big surprise.

This comes from not riding forward into the down transition. If she’s nosediving, and having a fit at the rein back, this suggests again that there’s too much hand and/or driving seat, and not enough supporting seat and/or leg.

[endlessclimb]

We are not the webster dictionary here in the horse world. In the horse world forward has absolutely eff-all to do with direction of travel.

Forward is an energy state. Forward is the ability to react promptly to any cue.

A horse isn’t “going forward” in a pirouette, but he better BE forward.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Oh, I know, and we are trying, believe me - she tries very hard to lean on the rein instead of engaging her butt. Her tendency is to go out behind and not carry herself, as she’s getting stronger. Carrying herself into downwards is what we do most days on the strength-building journey. Keeping her up and active into transitions is the name of the game on our training, as well as keeping her spicy to the leg - it’s a huge commitment as a rider - I need to learn to be so extreme about that reactivity and honesty off my leg every day. I bought her because she’s a gorgeous mover and safe safe safe, but the trade off is a lazier instinct and it’s work.

To add - she’s not “heavy”. She’ll pull on the reins a bit when she tries to lean, but she’s more likely to headstand in the way that she’ll try to go slightly BTV and abruptly stop her front legs into downs. Keeping her moving, moving, moving, up, up, up is what we’re working on. It has improved, but it’s a long process (it’s obviously harder than NOT tucking her butt underneath and carrying into the transitions).

[endlessclimb]

If we want to be literal in the horse world, can someone please make me a cartoon of what “in front of the leg” means?

[Jealoushe]

No, you don’t understand. Sorry

[JB]

@the_sandiest_shoes

Keeping her up and active into transitions is the name of the game on our training, as well as keeping her spicy to the leg - it’s a huge commitment as a rider - I need to learn to be so extreme about that reactivity and honesty off my leg every day.

My WB was the same way, and we spent lots and lots and lots of time doing transitions and getting him hot off my leg.

One game we did was to GO to a point across the ring, or to a tree in the pasture, and then halt there for a minute. Then turn around and GO back to another point. The “point to point” game really helped him understand that we were actually GOING somewhere, and once there, he could rest a minute.

Some days, the only thing we did was that game, and they were short rides because it’s HARD.

Also, think about how you start interacting with her the second you put her halter on to take her out of the field or stall. Right then, she needs to be hot off your aid to move. If she’s crooked in the aisle and you ask her to move her butt over, she has to learn to move it NOW. When you’re ready to move off the mounting block, she has to learn she walks off NOW, and walks smartly. She has to learn that every single time you ask her to move a body part, she has to reply “yes M’AM!”. It may start off with tense evasive movement, but keep at it, and it becomes energetic but thoughtful movement.

My guy took a lot to be motivated to move with that quickness. Once he understood that leg mean to move, I used the whip to emphasis not just “move”, but “move NOW”. He got an ask with leg, maybe 1 more more-insistent ask, but then he got a sharp once with the whip, and that’s what finally started getting him to understand it was just much easier to move off the first ask.

So think about every interaction, and whether you’re allowing her to react on her own terms, or yours

[Jealoushe]

Yes you definitely want your leg at the girth for the most part but they should also tolerate a leg swing here and there haha

[Mondo]

@sascha

It is not a forward movement.

Sorry, that’s not correct. It IS a forward movement. Forward meaning the horse is moving with impulsion. There is no impulsion at the walk, however, rein back is not truly a walk, since you are going for diagonal pairs as in the trot. You put your leg on, the horse goes forward. With the reins (hence the name, rein back) you take that forward energy you just created with your leg and cycle it backwards. But the horse absolutely must be thinking forward or it will not work and you’ll end up pulling the horse backwards with the reins.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

This is great advice. I am totally bad about letting her lazily dawdle behind me when I lead her. Consistency!!! I like that game idea too. I’ve started playing with poles to help her changes and it’s reminding me that changing it up really helps her attitude/ get her into GO mode.

[endlessclimb]

This is where people start thinking I’m Darth Vader when I’m around my horses.

I put my hand on the horse to move them over, if they don’t IMMEDIATELY start moving I switch to poke poke poke with my thumb. Same when leading - I walk MY pace, you have to figure out how to keep up. I’m not dragging you anywhere, let’s GO (looking at you, Old Man Niko!) and I will swing the rope behind me in a New York Minute if one is lugging on the halter. Same with backing - hustle hustle.

[anon55755751]

@the_sandiest_shoes

A trainer I have now talks about sitting heavy and back for RB, which I’ve never heard (though I read some other trainer blog that talks about this method) - this thread is consistent with what I’ve learned. The mare also is picky about legs back on her sides - I consciously ride her with a forward leg aid (an amazing clinician that gave us big break throughs this year suggested this approach to me, saying some mares are really better with keeping legs forward). I have another clinic with him in October and will ask him to help on RB

I put my legs back because my horse is so so very long and it helps him with straightness and confidence (not just w/RB). I’ve been reducing this as he’s gotten stronger. Totally understand doing the opposite for your mare. I’ve ridden with people who are for the concept (legs back as needed) and those against it absolutely, I just like having a lot of tools available - this one happens to be useful with my current horse. The FN link JB posted says what I’m doing is wrong because it increases dependence on the hands - I understand why it says that, have made that mistake in the past, and am proceeding with caution in my own training, making specific choices to address specific issues. We have a nice enough RB, no challenge training other than monitoring straightness, and no overuse of the hand, but it all was a product of the quality of the halt.

IME, down and back with the seat can be recommended as a strategy for collection, and paired with legs a wee bit back, activation of the hind legs, but I wouldn’t want to use it for RB either way, especially if it’s inconsistent with/muddles clarity of your other aids. Could be recommended by your trainer in this case due to the leaning back and stretching her front legs out - you would basically be using the down and back seat to punish/prevent that? Just a guess.

[JB]

@the_sandiest_shoes

I am totally bad about letting her lazily dawdle behind me when I lead her. Consistency!!!

I can only say all that because that WAS me, literally. He was such an easy going horse it was, well, just EASY to allow his kind, quiet attitude to be what it was, and I had to have my eyes opened that it all had to be very, very black and white. Go means GO, and it means go NOW, 100% of the time. Otherwise, they have to start thinking “well is this one of those times where GO NOW is what she means? Can I ignore her?” No, they shouldn’t have to think about the situation, they should learn that it’s just always

[cnm161]

About the “forward” debate: “forward” is shorthand for “prompt and correct reaction to your leg and sustains energy and momentum without nagging”.

But it is confusing and verging on esoteric to call a reinback a forward movement. And we should where possible make dressage as un-esoteric and common-language as possible, lest we turn out like that Northern Lightness thread.

[sascha]

Yeah, I do. What I am saying is the bafflegab can be totally confusing and counterproductive to good riding, especially for those who are just learning. Making things more difficult by saying they are something they are not is beyond silly. It’s beyond time to let go of the crap that makes it harder for learners to understand, that inhibits them from actually learning, and that can be detrimental to a young horse learning without getting frustrated by garbled aids.

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

If we want to be literal in the horse world, can someone please make me a cartoon of what “in front of the leg” means?

This is in no way equivalent to this:

@JB

It is a forward movement in terms of what the horse’s body is doing

One is an expression about a horse’s reaction to the aids. The other is nonsense.

But go on, explain exactly what the horse’s body is doing in rein back that is forward. Change my mind.

We get so mired in good theory that has been dissected and filigreed and had BNT’s or ODG’s names attached to it that we just accept it as the word of god and forget that the more simple we make things the easier they are to accomplish both for the rider and the horse.