How do you sit in reinback?

[JB]

OMG, I have said many times that it’s a function of what the horse is thinking, not simply doing. You cut off some of my comments to disprove what you want me to have said.

I have said if the horse isn’t thinking energy, impulsion, he’s not thinking forward, and that makes for a poor RB maneuver. Others have same the same thing - energy

Who cares what the muscles are or aren’t doing, they aren’t doing the same thing in a canter pirouette as they are in an extended canter either.

The ENTIRE point of using "forward’ is to think energy. You absolutely ask a horse to move forward, but block that forward movement, so that he decides to try moving in the backwards direction.

Truly, once someone understands that concept, then downward transitions, halts, and yes, the rein back, become so much easier to get. Otherwise, it’s all about the hands to pull the horse from canter to trot, trot to walk, walk to halt, and halt to rein back, and that won’t be a correct transition.

Never heard someone say, to get a good trot-walk transition, to “ride forward into the walk”?

If all you can do it take a word literally, take it entirely out of the context in which it’s used, then a whole lot of important concepts get lost.

Try actually reading the link I posted, because they use “forward” in exactly the manner I have been.

[JB]

@JB

everything is a “forward” movement, whether it’s actually going forward, or turn on the haunches, or yes, a rein back.

^^ see the quotes around “forward”? Meaning, not literally forward.

@JB

It is a forward movement in terms of what the horse’s body is doing, how he’s thinking, not the direction he’s moving.

^^ this one is what you cut off, because I clearly said “not the direction he’s moving”

@JB

“Forward” doesn’t simply mean physically moving forward. It’s the mental state of the horse - is he thinking “forward” at all times.

@JB

we have to think of ALL work in riding as “forward”, even if the direction of movement isn’t forward.

Almost everything we do to ask the horse to go from halt to RB, is the exact same as if asking for halt to walk

So for those who are takeing exception to the use of “forward”, how would you tell someone to get a proper rein back?

[Jealoushe]

I can’t with this

[Jealoushe]

@sascha

time to let go of the crap that makes it harder for learners to understand, that inhibits them from actually learning, and that can be detrimental to a young horse learning without getting frustrated by garbled aids.

Conspiracy around making it harder for people to learn dressage by using terms like “forward” in the “rein-back”

LOLOL Dressage is hard because it’s HARD!

Actually the hardest part is being forward and connected at all times LOL

[Warmblood1]

I didn’t read all of the replies so if I’m repeating things I apologize.

If the halt is suffering, the RB will suffer. The halt is what sets the rein back up. If the halt is not square, the horse submissive with the poll the highest point, and if the horse is on the forehand in the halt, the RB will fail. The horse must be sufficiently engaged in the haunches for the RB to be successful. The leaning and the lack of diagonal movement tells me the hind end isn’t sufficiently engaged.

According to Podhajsky, the horse is ready for RB when the horse can canter from the halt without any steps between. You want the horse to be relaxed in the transition without throwing themselves into it. Hind end sufficiently engaged.

The aids for the RB are a closure of the hands to redirect forward movement to backward movement with a slight driving seat. How pronounced the driving seat is depends on the sensitivity of the horse. If you have a very forward thinking horse, they often will become frustrated by too strong of a seat. I would keep seat bones neutral, close the reins, and slide the legs back a bit when first asking. If the horse isn’t as responsive, you can then drive your seat bones more forward until you get the right response.

It sounds like some more work is needed before you will get a better scoring RB. Working through anxiety (which starts at the halt) is also essential because the RB at the core is a test of submission.

[theresak]

@the_sandiest_shoes are you working on half steps at all? Getting access to half steps will probably solve your downwards transitions and the reinback. Being able to remind the hind legs to go quick-quick for a few steps is a huge helper for the “lazier” horses.

Also, consider trying some clicker training for the reinback (and half steps). I think teaching them some things as a “trick” so the horse is conditioned to the right physical posture and response can help those less motivated horses a lot.

If I didn’t warm up well, my older horse would sometimes drag me around in the canter when we’d start schooling. I’d go back to walk, do half steps a few times, then back to canter and the change in engagement and activity was dramatic. Then I’d use the same little wiggle of my heels to activate the hind legs right before downwards transitions.

[Kyrabee]

Seeing that I am the one that started the ‘conspiracy’ of a forward rein back . My sincerest apologies. Yes, I remember one of my instructors saying that forward ONLY indicates direction so yes, a reinback is not forward movement. However, I certainly want to keep the forward thinking engagement in that my horse readily springs forward at the release of the rein back aids. But yes, 100% a rein-back is not a forward movement. Again, apologies .

Susan

[MapleBreeze]

@the_sandiest_shoes

she tries very hard to lean on the rein instead of engaging her butt. Her tendency is to go out behind and not carry herself, as she’s getting stronger. Carrying herself into downwards is what we do most days on the strength-building journey.

This is an inhand neck issue first.
What neck muscles is she using to back up? Is she bracing the underside of the neck or using her topline?

Can she stretch forward and down to the bit with her head at about chest height? Then when she is in that position you back…but please dont practice it with a braced neck. When you have on the ground it will be much better under saddle.

[J-Lu]

Ummm, it seems like you are riding a very mare-is mare?

I teach RB by slightly tipping my pelvis back and slightly leaning forward-slightly. I push my pelvis backwards with a rein that applies bit pressure, stops, bit pressure, stops, etc. I never pull. Simultaneous with a leg aid saying “move some”. It all translates to “move backwards, not forwards” and seems to work.

He would offer RB at inappropriate times but these aids help clarify RB for him.

Good luck!

[outerbanks77]

If I feel like I’ve gotten a good halt with the hinds under and the horse engaged, I keep my seat and use diagonal aids - squeeze one rein and brush a little backwards with the opposite calf. If I don’t feel the halt is as engaged, I lighten the seat with a very slight forward inclination and apply the same aids to allow the back to come up.

[eightpondfarm]

@the_sandiest_shoes

So curious on tips on training RB/ how you’ve learned it. It seems like there’s a variety of approaches? I don’t know what’s best.

Based upon the convo on another thread, i had an online discussion with my coach, and then, during lesson thursday, we had an indepth discussion/demonstration. I naturally lift, hold reins firmly (not pull),move my pelvis up underme, and apply leg. In my view, a reinback is forward movement except in reverse, so needs energy, (so ‘driving seat’ might make more sense to folks who think my way is wrong) I round my rear up under me. i tilt the same direction as a halfhalt, except instead of sitting deep, sitting heavily… i sit light.

I learned to ride like this by riding bareback and always visualizing my spine connected to theirs… Coincidently, my coach agrees though until last week we never talked about it! She has never corrected my seat position in reinback, though she has on occasion instructed me to use more leg and less rein.

caveat: My main mare is a backup balker. Walking backwards is her answer to anything she doesn’t want to do. When she backs up, i allow it. In fact, i encourage it!.. In the olden days, when she ALWAYS balked at the corner gate badly, we would do serpentines, we would do 10m circles, we would back up along the diagonal. We would PERFECTLY back …with energy and straightness and connected. And to this very day we have an excellent reinback to a nice walk forward after with enthusiasm and expression.

Last week i had my noodley loosey-goosey green Standardbred in lesson and we did his first reinback. Because now he has a nice halt and he was ready. I do believe it helped him straighten his big noodley self out. And we were able to get to a trot a little later…and a pace…we did a 20m (well, not a circle, was very elliptical) pace. Twas like riding a camel LOL… but he was happy! Once he learned that he gets approval for something he loves repeating the experience. They lad is slavish for attention.

[merrygoround]

Reinback is considered a Forward response, in that the horse moves to the aids.

[Mondo]

Yeah. Isn’t that kind of what I wrote?

[dotneko]

The way I learned rein back - about 35 years ago, from a VBN trainer.
Close your legs and send the horse forward to the bit. Simultaneously lighten your seat (sitting deeper onto your seat bones turns this into a half halt) by tipping onto your pubic bones. Your horses energy goes forward to a restraining hand where it bounces backwards. A half halt is a momentary restriction and a driving seat. A rein back aid is a more restrictive hand and a lighter seat. DO NOT PULL BACK. Wait the horse out if it does not rein back immediately,
Sitting ‘back’ and softening the hand is the signal to ‘stop reining back already’.
The rocker (schaukel) is a super exercise for both rider and horse. The rider needs to know what legs are where and what they are doing lol.
A soft halt on the aids is critical. An elastic connection is necessary. Diagonal pairs. I gave my first 10 to a competitor about a month ago in a halt rein back. Out of, what, 2 million or so scores I have given - maybe 1000 or so rein backs?

[the_sandiest_shoes]

I had a couple much more relaxed rein-backs with her recently. Practicing in hand has helped - I feel guilty sometimes for getting after her so much for laziness, but I know it’s part of the journey to making her more self-going and it’s better to break the nagging habit. Amping her way up in the trot, so she’s fully lifting her shoulder, and being super picky about keeping her quick behind into the halts help.

(When I vetted her earlier this summer to check her hocks/ hind-end because of some stickiness and resistance, her prescription was more strength building and more work, basically. I need to balance pushing her enough to the point she’s getting stronger and stronger to carry herself, but not go over the top where she feels exhausted and frustrated and starts balking/ crow-hopping in protest. It’s a fine line - pushing her right up to it, taking a break, pushing some more, etc. I can tell she’s getting way stronger already but it’s a commitment.)

[Horselove5]

@dotneko

Close your legs and send the horse forward to the bit. Simultaneously lighten your seat (sitting deeper onto your seat bones turns this into a half halt) by tipping onto your pubic bones. Your horses energy goes forward to a restraining hand where it bounces backwards. A half halt is a momentary restriction and a driving seat. A rein back aid is a more restrictive hand and a lighter seat. DO NOT PULL BACK. Wait the horse out if it does not rein back immediately,
Sitting ‘back’ and softening the hand is the signal to ‘stop reining back already’.

Excellent description! This is how I learned it too, except my weight should go very slightly backward when riding an inexperienced horse (an experienced one should do it by the closing of the legs + restrictive hands only, no change in the weight distribution). Also, never ever pull back - at most a slight and simultaneous pressure on the reins by the ring fingers only .
It’s interesting to see so many approaches.

[Warmblood1]

@Horselove5

It’s interesting to see so many approaches.

It is interesting to see how people ride in theory (and also interesting to see how they also ride in practice). But much like if OP asked, how do you give a canter cue? Or what is your half-halt like? Answers will vary for sure. Even my own aids will be slightly different on a very hot versus very cold horse or a schoolmaster versus a fresh, green youngster.

[sparkygrace]

This how I was taught as well.

[lorilu]

I would call your attention to the actual definition of Reinback, from the USEF Rulebook, Dressage division, section 106: DR106 The Rein Back

1. Rein back is a rearward diagonal movement with a two-beat rhythm but without a moment of suspension.
   Each diagonal pair of legs is raised and returned to the ground alternatively, with the forelegs aligned on the
   same track as the hindlegs. A four-beat rein back that is not clearly two-beat and diagonal, if done without
   resistance, could also be scored marginal or better.
2. During the entire exercise, the horse should remain “on the bit”, maintaining its desire to move forward.
3. Anticipation or precipitation of the movement, resistance to or evasion of the contact, deviation of the
   hindquarters from the straight line, spreading or inactive hind legs, and dragging forefeet are serious faults.
4. The steps are counted as each foreleg moves back. After completing the required number of steps backward,
   the horse moves immediately forward with a fluid, direct transition to the required gait. In tests where a rein
   back of one horse’s length is required, it should be executed with three or four steps.
5. Rein back series (Schaukel) is a combination of two rein backs with walk steps in between. It should be
   executed with fluent transitions and the required number of steps.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Another update that this keeps improving - I was not being patient enough with her before and was being too picky, I think - getting frustrated at lack of promptness and diagonal pairs, etc. I’ve tried to chill and just focus on getting a nice, light, square halt, then taking a breath and asking her gently to go back. The approach of letting her think about it and come back gradually has kept her relaxed about it and her connection steady, in combo with getting a perfectly square halt first to set her up right. She’s not quite diagonal pairs but this is way better and the advice here has helped! Patience and a fair, thoughtful approach for me is helping too!