I have a 4 year old who I work like any other horse I’ve ever owned. Today another rider I met seemed shocked that I was trail riding her as well as working her in the arena and told me I was expecting too much.
My horse definitely needs the arena work, but I love riding out on the trail and never think that I’m asking too much of her.
How old are your horses when you start to seriously work them?
I felt fine with trail rides that lasted a few hours or so with my guys. I kept an eye on them, but never had any problems.
Arena work, I limited to 1/2 hour. Mostly just because that was all the focus I was going to get from them and why fight it?
My reiner went to the OK futurity last year so he was in full training from just 2. I bought him in March this year just before he turned 4. We ride 4 days per week in the arena for ~45-60 minutes each time. I ride him 3 days and my trainer rides him 1.
He lives at home with me and has 24/7 access to his paddock and gets pasture turnout for 4-6 hours per day.
If he wasn’t wearing sliders wed do a bit of trail too.
Lurker on the western forum (my baby TB is being broke western so I’m going to keep her that way for at least a few months after she comes home)
Work 20-30 mins in arena, but up to 1-2 hrs on trail. On trail she just seems more relaxed & bright, work isn’t really “work” as much as in the ring.
Btw, curious, what are “sliders”? assume some kind of shoe to assist with sliding stop?
Read this. http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf. It’s fact. The trail riding is great for your horse. The ring work should be approached with care but at 4 it is the horse’s back you need to protect.
The term “serious work” needs definition. One person’s serious work is another’s light riding. Just remember repetitive motion and pounding (jumping, ring work on the forehand, hours at the trot) are the enemies of the immature horse. Short busts of speed and varied terrain are beneficial.
Longride is right. My rides are varied - we work fast and then slow and take lots of breaks. We usually only stop and turn once a week, on different days.
Sliding plates are wide flat shoes with the nail heads filed off. They allow the horse to get low and do the sliding stops without tearing up his hocks and stifles. They’re quite slippery
I like for a horse to still be sound at 30, so nothing serious til about 6 or 7.
[QUOTE=tinah;7095760]
I like for a horse to still be sound at 30, so nothing serious til about 6 or 7.[/QUOTE]
A million thumbs up to this!
Mac is 8 now and I feel like we’re so behind the game because so many people start riding their horses at such a young age. He was 5 when I got him (had already been started under saddle, very lightly and very infrequently) and his work ethic/attention span/training was such that I really couldn’t do much more than 20 minutes of arena work a few times per week. We hit the trails a lot, though, because he loves that, and mostly at a walk, although we do have a lot of hills so it was rarely on a flat surface.
I hope he’ll be sound for a very long time. I don’t really have show goals, just progression-through-training goals, so I don’t have any deadlines to meet.
[QUOTE=UrbanHennery;7095663]
Longride is right. My rides are varied - we work fast and then slow and take lots of breaks. We usually only stop and turn once a week, on different days.
Sliding plates are wide flat shoes with the nail heads filed off. They allow the horse to get low and do the sliding stops without tearing up his hocks and stifles. They’re quite slippery[/QUOTE]
I daresay that starting work at a such young age (full training since two) and just doing the sliding stops themselves at such a young age do more wear and tear on his body than using sliders could possibly compensate for.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7095780]
I daresay that starting work at a such young age (full training since two) and just doing the sliding stops themselves at such a young age do more wear and tear on his body than using sliders could possibly compensate for.[/QUOTE]
On the other hand, studies show that horses started at two, over the years, performed better and stayed more sound than those started later.
Makes sense, like athletes, the younger someone starts to learn motor memory and good techniques for what they will be doing, as appropriate for their discipline, the better their body will have adapted for that.
They will perform better and stay sound doing it.
It is the same in human athletes, kids starting in grade school team sports are, by the time they go thru high school and college sports extremely good and fit for that sport, at a level that it would be someone, that waited until it was in their mid to late teenager years to start would ever catch up.
We don’t wait to start kids in school until they are, say, 12 years old, when they finally are somewhat mature enough to really learn.
We don’t just leave them out there playing with each other until then.
And no, you don’t slide reining horses when you start training them.
They are way along and ready for that before you go there and it will depend on the colt when that is started.
It is not when you start a colt, it is how you go about it that will make the colt learn well and stay sound and healthy physically and mentally.
There are now many, many horses out there started as two for reining and cutting that are still competing sound and healthy into their mid teens and into their 20’s, although in the lower levels now, having slowed down from when they were young.
Bluey, I know some studies were done at NC State on the effects of different types of ridden exercise on 2-4 year olds but I don’t know how long they followed the horses. Can you give references to the studies you’re referring to?
[QUOTE=longride1;7095946]
Bluey, I know some studies were done at NC State on the effects of different types of ridden exercise on 2-4 year olds but I don’t know how long they followed the horses. Can you give references to the studies you’re referring to?[/QUOTE]
The studies I know about were some 10-15 years ago by TX A+M and some results were reported in Equus also at that time.
I don’t have the links any more and don’t know if anyone followed the horses more than two or three years, when they said that the horses started later had finally caught up to the ones started earlier in basic performance proficiency.
I know that many older horses competing today were started for the futurities and are holding up very well, which means plenty of those horses were not hurt by being started early.
Would be interesting if someone would follow all kinds of horses and see what they come with as average results.
I know that growing up in Europe, we never started any under saddle before four but a handful and those we drove with an older horse, didn’t really ride them.
Starting a two year old? Never heard of that, other than race colts.
Once I came to the USA, I can say starting two year olds is a dream, so much easier.
All that time waiting until four seems lost to make great minded horses with a good work ethic.
Starting with a baby two, they just go along and love the work.
At four, they are more into needing to be convinced this is the game now in your life, horse and we want to try to do this and that and please cooperate.
In a way, starting mature feral horses, already 8-10 years old, that had never been around humans, was a bit easier than four year olds full of themselves and trying their new bigness for size, still with the insecurity of a youngster and inconsistent attention span of a gnat at times.
I am all for making life the easiest for all and starting colts at twos is just that.
Now, you have to start them like the babies they are, a very light person with the correct skills and common sense to see what each colt needs.
Then, no matter how old, you do need to consider the horse in front of you anyway, you can also hurt a mature horse, not just a young one, if you don’t go about your job right.
There are many futurity colts started early that wash out, but that is generally for lack of talent and those go on to be good at other and that early training is an asset there.
Team penning/sorting is one place many less than stellar reiners and cutters end up, if suitable for that, just as many race colts end up as barrel racers later in life.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7095898]
On the other hand, studies show that horses started at two, over the years, performed better and stayed more sound than those started later.
Makes sense, like athletes, the younger someone starts to learn motor memory and good techniques for what they will be doing, as appropriate for their discipline, the better their body will have adapted for that.
They will perform better and stay sound doing it.
It is the same in human athletes, kids starting in grade school team sports are, by the time they go thru high school and college sports extremely good and fit for that sport, at a level that it would be someone, that waited until it was in their mid to late teenager years to start would ever catch up.
We don’t wait to start kids in school until they are, say, 12 years old, when they finally are somewhat mature enough to really learn.
We don’t just leave them out there playing with each other until then.
And no, you don’t slide reining horses when you start training them.
They are way along and ready for that before you go there and it will depend on the colt when that is started.
It is not when you start a colt, it is how you go about it that will make the colt learn well and stay sound and healthy physically and mentally.
There are now many, many horses out there started as two for reining and cutting that are still competing sound and healthy into their mid teens and into their 20’s, although in the lower levels now, having slowed down from when they were young.[/QUOTE]
sorry I have to totally disagree . QH and TB people - that’s their defense but it’s untrue. Most horses - including scrubby range bred mares are not skeletally mature until they are5/ 6 give or take 6 months for environmental factors. . Causing excessive amounts of microfractures in horses as young as 2 is not beneficial to long term soundness. People mostly concern themselves with grow plates in the knees… every bone in the skeleton has growth plates and they ‘close’ as we like to say at different rates or fuse - depending on what you prefer to call it. The cervical bones don’t fuse in ANY breed of horse until the 5th year. - meaning starting a horse young, you are more likely to do permanent injury to a horses back and neck then any ‘unsoundness’ you may think you are doing to their legs. I’ve seen horses with slipped backs - ridden at 2, bred at 3 - it’s a mess.
And male horse mature skeletally slower then females - and the bigger/taller your horse is means it matures even slower. So your 17.2hh WB with the lovely elegant neck? might look all grown up but it’s possible he might at the age of up to and beyond 7 years still be maturing.
You are more likely to have a much healthier (talking physical soundness only of course) horse the later you start them - not the earlier.
[QUOTE=rainechyldes;7096031]
sorry I have to totally disagree . QH and racing people that’s their defense but it’s untrue. Most horses - including scurbby range bred mares are not skeletally mature until they are 6. Causing excessive amounts of microfactures in horses are young a 2 is not beneficial to long term soundness. People mostly concern themselves with grow plates in the knees… every bone in the skeletpn has growth plates and they ‘close’ as we like to say at different rates or fuse - depending on what you prefer to call it. The cervical bones don’t fuse in ANY breed of horse until the 5th year. - meaning starting a horse young, you are more likely to do permanent injury to a horses back and neck then any ‘unsoundness’ you may think you are doing to their legs.
And male horse mature skeletally slower then femals - and the bigger/taller your horse is means it matures even slower. So your 17.2hh WB might look ll grown up but it’s possible he might at the age of up to and including 7 still be maturing.
You are more likely to have a much healthier (talking physical soundness only of course) horse the later you start them - not the earlier.[/QUOTE]
You are not talking into consideration that the body remodels as it grows and if it is already training for a certain task, it does so in a way that favors that.
That tends to insure the horses trained when young for a certain task stay sound longer than some started later, when the remodeling is not as prevalent and injuries from straining to do the work, now harder on an already mature body, can be more prevalent.
Someone trained as a gymnast from young will always be better at it and stay more sound doing that than someone that picked it up in their early 20’s, the equivalent of waiting to start a horse in it’s task once mature.
That is what those studies were showing, the bone remodeling and strengthening in general, that fitness acquired early, that was harder to catch up to for those started later and the mental maturity gained by learning to work early.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7096035]
You are not talking into consideration that the body remodels as it grows and if it is already training for a certain task, it does so in a way that favors that.
That tends to insure the horses trained when young for a certain task stay sound longer than some started later, when the remodeling is not as prevalent and injuries from straining to do the work, now harder on an already mature body, can be more prevalent.
Someone trained as a gymnast from young will always be better at it and stay more sound doing that than someone that picked it up in their early 20’s, the equivalent of waiting to start a horse in it’s task once mature.
That is what those studies were showing, the bone remodeling and strengthening in general, that fitness acquired early, that was harder to catch up to for those started later and the mental maturity gained by learning to work early.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but you will never convince that it is better for a horse’s long-term soundness to be in full training at age two. And if you compare it to gymnastics, I have to laugh. Gymnasts are done with their careers at such a young age. Their young bodies get so injured in the process - those I know have had multiple injuries, multiple surgeries, and live in chronic pain. Not something I want for any of my horses.
I can accept that early training trains one’s mind and muscle memory to perform a given task. But to actually propose it as a tool toward long-term soundness? I just don’t buy it.
Bluey, I’d be interested to have you pose your comment to Dr. Deb to see what her reply is. If you or she could show me a study I certainly would be open to reading it.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7096042]
Sorry, but you will never convince that it is better for a horse’s long-term soundness to be in full training at age two. And if you compare it to gymnastics, I have to laugh. Gymnasts are done with their careers at such a young age. Their young bodies get so injured in the process - those I know have had multiple injuries, multiple surgeries, and live in chronic pain. Not something I want for any of my horses.
I can accept that early training trains one’s mind and muscle memory to perform a given task. But to actually propose it as a tool toward long-term soundness? I just don’t buy it.
Bluey, I’d be interested to have you pose your comment to Dr. Deb to see what her reply is. If you or she could show me a study I certainly would be open to reading it.[/QUOTE]
Dr Deb has contributed much that is of value, in other she has maybe not had all the information, or was waiting to learn more.
Just because she is good, that doesn’t mean her word is the only one out there.
As for gymnasts and what you say there, well, I was one and no, you are repeating something you may have heard, but it is not so, really.
Guess that equestrians, with all their injuries, if they have been seriously involved with horses those tend to be a given, should stay off horses also?
Anyone that is an athlete and is training hard will at some time have injuries, but so will the couch potato that takes a bad step and falls, although granted that couch potato will have less injuries, but maybe a worse health from a sedentary life.
There are trade-offs in all we do in life, for humans and animals.
I am not trying to “convince” anyone, just put out more ideas out there, to show it is not as clear cut as some may think this topic is.
That is a strawman argument.
All horses remodel when they are legged up/conditioned/and advance in training. You can break down a 2 year as easily as a 7 year old if you work the horse too hard.
that is a given.
And totally separate from the statement I was making - that I disagree with your premise that starting a horse younger makes them sounder longterm - it simply is not true.
And if you wish to bring Dr. Deb into it - she says the exact same thing.
Here ya go.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
[QUOTE=rainechyldes;7096077]
That is a strawman argument.
All horses remodel when they are legged up/conditioned/and advance in training. You can break down a 2 year as easily as a 7 year old if you work the horse too hard.
that is a given.
And totally separate from the statement I was making - that I disagree with your premise that starting a horse younger makes them sounder longterm - it simply is not true.
And if you wish to bring Dr. Deb into it - she says the exact same thing.
Here ya go.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf[/QUOTE]
Oh, I am aware of what she writes, but don’t think it is quite so, after spending a lifetime starting colts, training them, retraining them, following them their whole life and that of so many others and not seeing anything but good from those started early, compared with the others.
As for injuries, those have many, many possible causes and when they were started I think if at all is applicable to any one injury is a very small number of them.
We had a feral horse that was started as a five year old, raised out in a Nevada feral horse herd and caught and gelded then.
You know, he had always rickets and they were worst in his knees, that always seemed a bit funny.
Rickets, the vet called it, from having grown in the wild during some droughts, with very poor nutrition at important times.
There are many, many reasons horses may not be quite sound at any age.
I still think that starting one early is going to, in general, benefit them over later in many ways and no, it is not a given it will hurt, when what you want is an athlete.
You are welcome to disagree, of course.
I found a reference to a TB study showing horses started earlier were measuring in some ways better fitted for later competition than those started as older horses, but have not found the study itself:
Actually, I am speaking of gymnasts I know personally, not something I have just “heard” offhand.
I would accept that younger horses perform better - of course they would, if they have had a shorter life span so far in which to have accumulated injuries. But performance does not equal long-term soundness.
Well, I was a gymnast, so I too know what I am talking about there.
Found one article, but is a recent one, not the one I remember from TX A+M:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23009388
This one seems to indicate starting those colts early did give them a longer running life.
Just shows that the jury is still out, we don’t have as clear cut an answer to this as some like to think.
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