How long would you wait before moving your horse to a more challenging environment/job?

[mvp]

@CBoylen

I would be wary about changing the situation now. This is the time of year where horses change attitudes anyway, as it gets colder and leaves blow. Your summer horse is not necessarily what you’ve actually got. If you move at this time you run the risk of not knowing what caused a difference, the change or the change in season. No hurry anyway right? The horse with a reputation and no loading skills is basically unsaleable, you’re stuck with it for the long term.
What you can do is ask for more things at home. You say you are jumping but I’m not sure exactly what you have asked for, trotting an x or course with changes? Plain schooling jumps or flowers and walls? Is he doing real flatwork or poking around on a loose rein with any pressure? Even if the facility is limited you may not be out of options as far as things that can still be worked on on the scale of learning where his threshold limit lies.

All good points.

And I’d argue a bit of the opposite.

I think that if you 1. figured this horse out once, you can do it again; 2. if the new place has a round pen or somewhere similarly safe and quiet that you can take ride him if he has a set back; it will be OK.

You have built a foundation that you can come back to. IMO, horses need to learn to be rideable anywhere and any time. So think of this move as giving you the opportunity to solidify the foundation you built. And it will give him confidence in you and in himself to discover that your ride has not changed in the new, chaotic place. You may not be working on jumping larger fences, but OMG you are working on making him a useful horse. And don’t let anyone tell you that a horse that can jump bigger (in theory) but becomes unthinking and hard to ride at shows is a good thing.

All that is to say: Move him whenever you want (or really, when you find the next place that will offer him care at least as good as what he gets now, plus some extra things you want), and then commit to “training the horse you have” when you get there.

I know this because I did this with a very hot mare I bought several years ago. She has great focus and teachability now, but used to be the horse that might spin you off on the trail and was down-right dangerous with cattle. Her job title is Dressage Horse. But what has been most important for making her able to do that job in a way that’s worth taking to a horse show is the Everything Else I had to teach her.

So, for example, if your horse needs drugs to get into a trailer, you need to get access to a trailer you can use to teach him to load. And that job is as valuable as something like a good flying change. Just teach him what he needs to know and that he can be safe if he takes direction from you in whatever situation you find yourself in.

But, yes, the recipe of New Place plus Crispy Fall Weather might make your job harder than it would be otherwise, LOL.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

My heart really goes out to you, given it sounds like your original trainer took terrible advantage of you, and the Natural Horsemanship trainer experience was just wasted time and money.

I think, however, that you’re understandably still in a bad place, emotionally, and you need to break down your goals and plans for this horse in a slow and step-by-step fashion. First, work on loading, slowly, with someone you trust. Going to a different facility won’t be much fun if the horse can’t go off property without heavy sedation. Without being able to load, that doesn’t mean much in the way of showing, clinics, or even a fun hunter pace or trail ride.

Find an outside trainer to work on loading, slowly and gently. Then go from there. A horse that can’t get on a trailer of any kind (I believe this is with all trailers, from what you said, not just specific types) without heavy sedation is a risk, not just for riding stuff, but also if he needs to go off property for veterinary care.

[danhelm441]

Thanks everyone for the helpful perspectives! It does seem like the best course of action is to continue taking it one day at a time and not do anything to rock the boat over winter. I can keep an ear to the ground for possible trainers and facilities that might be a better long-term match. I hadn’t thought about trying an eventing barn, but that might be a good culture fit.

What you can do is ask for more things at home. You say you are jumping but I’m not sure exactly what you have asked for, trotting an x or course with changes? Plain schooling jumps or flowers and walls? Is he doing real flatwork or poking around on a loose rein with any pressure? Even if the facility is limited you may not be out of options as far as things that can still be worked on on the scale of learning where his threshold limit lies.

We are just poking around over ground poles and cavalettis. He has great WTC transitions, up and down, because he got so sharp on voice commands on the lunge. But everything is on a floppy rein. I do lunge in side reins when I lunge, and he is continuing to put on muscle and weight (his body condition deteriorated in the training program to a 1.5-2. He is much better now but still on the lean side). But yes, there is a lot more we could be doing, I’m just not confident to do it personally. But maybe as his fitness increases and he spends more and more time under saddle, that will change on its own.

Beg borrow or steal transportation. Wave enough money under somebody’s nose to get them to come over to teach you. Something. Get the ball rolling where you are.

I can try this. But my horse is SO bad to load, even with drugs, that both shippers I’ve worked with—both warned in advance the horse is a difficult loader and who assured me they had seen it all—said he was the worst of the worst. Maybe he would be better now that he is just generally in a better headspace, but I’m afraid to recruit anyone to help. The first shipper almost killed me by getting impatient and snapping the whip on my horse’s haunches as I was leading him up the ramp. He went STRAIGHT up and I can’t believe he didn’t hit me. I saw hooves an inch from my face and he nearly flipped. So not only is he afraid of trailers, tbh I’m afraid too!

[Aussie_2020]

I suggest keeping him where he is for the winter; find Warrick Schiller youtube videos and watch them - he has really good ideas for dealing with an emotional horse. You can practice / train for trailering without a trailer. Walking on a piece of plywood, stepping up and backing off a lip of some type (like a couple of railroad ties or whatever is handy at your barn). There is tons of ground work for him to learn. Sidepass, turn on haunches and forehand, walk / trot / halt transitions while on the leadline with you, etc. Really expand your in hand training and ground driving, it’s more than just lunging. Good luck! This horse needed you.

[Scribbler]

@Aussie_2020

I suggest keeping him where he is for the winter; find Warrick Schiller youtube videos and watch them - he has really good ideas for dealing with an emotional horse. You can practice / train for trailering without a trailer. Walking on a piece of plywood, stepping up and backing off a lip of some type (like a couple of railroad ties or whatever is handy at your barn). There is tons of ground work for him to learn. Sidepass, turn on haunches and forehand, walk / trot / halt transitions while on the leadline with you, etc. Really expand your in hand training and ground driving, it’s more than just lunging. Good luck! This horse needed you.

All this.

The shipping question is a giant hole in his training and attitude, not just for the issue of shipping but for what it says about how he reacts under stress and pressure.

I’m confused about what body score you are using. 1.5 to 2 on the Henneke 10 point body score is basically at death’s door. So you can’t mean that.

If you are still riding on looped reins you have a long way to go before you start lessons. You will need to start teaching him to reach for the bit and stretch into contact calmly and happily. This will be a huge part of your rehab work.

You also need to avoid idiot shippers who put you at risk because they have an eye on the clock. Both of you need to go back to square one with plywood and a circus box if you can get one and basically controlling his feet quietly on the ground. As I said upthread you need to become a horse person and not just an adult ammie in a program who gives over all decisions to semi incompetent “professionals.”

You don’t fix a horse with trailering problems by fighting with him into a trailer. You do it through slow exposure where things never escalate to get dangerous.

[pompeiii]

I also recommend that when you are ready (pre-loading training suggestions are spot on!), reach out to this group for trainer recommendations for trainers specific to trailer loading. Someone who can come to you and a borrowed trailer. It may take several sessions and it’s ok! But there are some phenomenal trainers out there who can help you out and they go home at the end of the day (if you don’t like them, they don’t come back). I’ve worked with a few with different horses and my problem children all learned to self-load vs 4 hour loading (when colicking with drugs) or rearing and running me down. While I could train solo, I get emotional and having an independent, level person helps me. Once I see it done? I know it’s possible. Plus it’s faster because they make fewer mistakes.

[vxf111]

You have made, frankly, amazing progress roughing out what most people wouldn’t. I would not change something working so well. If anything I’d give him the winter off and restart in the spring to test how well the changes stick and then possibly contemplate a move next spring. You know what they say about “if it ain’t broke…”

[fordtraktor]

Hmm. I agree with staying in the same place for now.

Honestly, it sounds like this horse is a horse that does not handle pressure. You are doing well with him, but also really not asking him to do anything.

I had a horse like that once. I found him a home where the person didn’t really have any sport goals. He’s still happy there, moseying around on a loose rein. He’ll never be more than that without becoming dangerous again, IMO. Are you OK with that? I am not, but she is and he’s gorgeous and it works.

The other option is to teach him to handle pressure, but that is a task for a very skilled horseperson.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I agree with this 100%. Really, there are two possibilities for this horse:

1. The horse was badly treated and is coming back from being mentally and physically fried.
   OR
2. This horse has very narrow boundaries (based on temperament and past treatment) under which he can function without losing his marbles, and you’ve found them. (Ridden with minimal contact on the reins, going over tiny poles, no behavioral or riding expectations other than just not being dangerous to self or others). But if he’s pushed beyond them, this will require highly skilled and tactful management at all times, and as an amateur you’ll always have to be on your guard, and even then that might not be enough.

[CBoylen]

Your progress is extremely tenuous if you are “poking” and “flopping” as you describe it. Basically, you haven’t trained him; he has trained you. You stay out of his way and ask for nothing with no pressure, and he does fine. This is the cornerstone of the black stallion syndrome where the owner says “oh Pookey does just great for me but the professionals can’t ride him”. You’ll have exactly the same horse you had before as soon as someone asks him to do something that involves any kind of effort.
The good news is; he probably does like and trust you right now, those things do actually exist, just not on the “magical” level. So you can start to slowly add tiny bits of pressure. Some contact undersaddle. Some lateral work. Some more challenging pole patterns. A little bit at a time without changing anything else. You might have a chance to actually turn him around. But what you have now is a truce, and it’s not going to hold through a rider change or a location change. Plus, you have got to work on the trailer loading first before you change locations unless you are going to ride him to the new barn.

[bingbingbing]

I didn’t see it mentioned, but can you find a trainer to come out to give you lessons?

[danhelm441]

@bingbingbing

I didn’t see it mentioned, but can you find a trainer to come out to give you lessons?

I am taking once weekly lessons with the barn owner. She is older but really knows her stuff. So we do have that going for us, and in lessons I’m more confident to ask for more. He is a tricky horse where, if you let him get behind the leg* and ask too little, he is likely to get into mischief. He actually does better the more you ask from him, but it’s a fine line, because if you ask too much and he feels like he doesn’t know the answer, that’s when he gets dangerous. I’ve personally never gotten there with him, only trainers have. He’s dumped me plenty of times, but always from the end of the spectrum where I was asking too little and he played up. I’ve never had him panic or get that anxious under saddle with me but I saw it during pro rides.

[Scribbler]

@danhelm441

@bingbingbing

I didn’t see it mentioned, but can you find a trainer to come out to give you lessons?

I am taking once weekly lessons with the barn owner. She is older but really knows her stuff. So we do have that going for us, and in lessons I’m more confident to ask for more. He is a tricky horse where, if you let him get behind the leg* and ask too little, he is likely to get into mischief. He actually does better the more you ask from him, but it’s a fine line, because if you ask too much and he feels like he doesn’t know the answer, that’s when he gets dangerous. I’ve personally never gotten there with him, only trainers have. He’s dumped me plenty of times, but always from the end of the spectrum where I was asking too little and he played up. I’ve never had him panic or get that anxious under saddle with me but I saw it during pro rides.

This horse is not yet ready to go into a program or serious lessons. You are still early days in problem solving.

To reiterate what I said upthread, a serious coach exists in order to push you and your horse a bit further in lessons. If you want to be a good student you say “Yes, Coach!” and give it your best try. You don’t start going on about how Pookie can not be asked to do this that or the other because you will die, even if that is the absolute truth. It just makes you sound like an argumentative or lazy student.

Obviously you’ve had trainers who couldn’t understand his limits even when they were actually riding him let alone when they were watching you. Those were bad pros.

Anyhow, you are reporting more and more things about this horse that suggest it is still very early days solving his emotional problems. And this is something that only you can do for yourself right now.

One thing I like about groundwork is that it lets you and the horse work out some issues about learning and pressure without you get bucked off. Clicker training can be helpful in that it lets the horse learn that seeking an answer is OK and will be rewarded. He’s afraid of getting the wrong answer because he’s afraid of being punished. He’s like the child who bursts into tears and runs out of the room when the teacher calls on him because he fears he’ll get the strap whatever he answers.

You need to bring him along kindly until you can ride on clear contact and he no longer panics when you ask for more. At the same time you need to be really clean with your aids even with something like squirming in the saddle.

[lenapesadie]

OP, based on your additional details I will reiterate the suggestion for Warwick Schiller. The subscription to his full video library is very affordable. There is a lot of work you can do with your horse on a loose rein that will improve his mental capacity for work. WS has step by step videos. His whole training principle is keeping the horse “under threshold”; ideal for you and your horse.

Point blank, moving your horse before fully addressing his issues with trailering is signing your horse up for more trauma. Avoid that if at all possible.

One way or another you need to figure out how to work on his trailer loading. Start with the groundwork. For my horse, WS’s exercises for sending the horse between me and a fence and progressively making the space between me and the fence smaller and smaller was very helpful. It gave us both confidence in working in tighter spaces.

Best of luck

[the_continental]

You mentioned a PPE—did that include extensive x-rays? Has your vet ruled out potential issues that could be causing pain and reactiveness (e.g. kissing spine)?

[rulex]

@danhelm441

The answer to your questions is…WHY Why did the horse have a “reputation” to begin with? Why did the pro trainers you engaged to work with it make things worse? Why does it need to be heavily sedated to load? Why is it going better in the current environment?

I can’t say anything for sure, but I think he was just mentally fried.

Before moving him, I would want to have a much better understanding of why he’s ok in this environment to understand what set him off.

Others have listed excellent things you could work on at your current barn from a training perspective. I’ve also seen environment and diet play a role as well. What’s his living and turn out situation? Diet? Are they different from the other barns? Even staff and who handles him? Unfortunately who handles the horse other than you and how can also create stress for them. And while I agree that a good horse needs to learn to adapt to a variety of environments, throwing them in the deep end isn’t necessarily the most constructive way to get there.

Someone else mentioned Warwick Schiller for his training methods, but I will mention him for his perspective on the rider and self awareness. It’s a different kind of work in that you are working on yourself and not your horse. But in working on yourself you will be better able to better help your horse.

The biggest change I can see from the previous situations is a change in expectations. You took him from situations where you and pros working with him had expectations or goals in mind to a situation where there are none. And your horse responded to that. But now you speak of wanting him to do more. Do you have self awareness of expectations creeping back in? And how will that impact his behaviour? Or are you going to throw him into new situations and see how it shakes out?

A good trainer only asks questions of the horse that the horse can answer yes to.

You mention wanting to trailer him out, go on trail rides etc. Do you know that he knows the answer to those questions? And if you don’t, do you know how to break the thing down into smaller steps and ensure that he knows the answer to all those smaller steps?

I think it’s fantastic that you were able to take a step back and create a good space for your horse. But now I think there is a huge learning curve ahead on what the horse needs in order to be able to safely do the things you talk about wanting to do.

The answer to your question of “how long” before you can move the horse isn’t a length of time, but rather a check list of behaviours you can reliably expect that will keep you both safe.

And at a bare minimum, to me, it’s being able to load on a trailer calmly with no sedation. Break that down into however many small steps that needs to be. I expect you will find his “no” answer long before he’s even near a trailer.

As to how long it will take for you to get your horse to a place where all those things will be checked off, a good trainer will tell you “it takes how long it takes”.

You will need to make your peace with that if you truly want to keep working with this horse. Otherwise think long and hard about your own goals and how this horse fits into that.

[rulex]

@fordtraktor

I had a horse like that once. I found him a home where the person didn’t really have any sport goals. He’s still happy there, moseying around on a loose rein. He’ll never be more than that without becoming dangerous again, IMO. Are you OK with that? I am not, but she is and he’s gorgeous and it works.

I leased a horse like that. Was lovely for his older amateur owner who didn’t ask much of him. But I took jumping lessons with the goal to progress. After a fall that resulted in permanent damage to my neck I found out through the grapevine that this horse had a history that wasn’t disclosed to me by the trainer or the owner. He was given to current owner for free because of it.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@CBoylen

Basically, you haven’t trained him; he has trained you. You stay out of his way and ask for nothing with no pressure, and he does fine. This is the cornerstone of the black stallion syndrome where the owner says “oh Pookey does just great for me but the professionals can’t ride him”. You’ll have exactly the same horse you had before as soon as someone asks him to do something that involves any kind of effort.

Quoting because this is perhaps the best explanation of BSS I’ve ever seen! I’ve even had it thrown back to me in lessons, occasionally, when I was at a lesson barn: “Pookey goes better for the beginner kids than he does for you.” Because the children would ride on the buckle, and let Pookey go wherever he wanted to go, versus riding on contact, steering, and being expected to sustain a particular gait. It’s like kids who never act up with grandma, because grandma lets them do whatever they want. Not that it isn’t mentally healthy to have a break like this for kids, but it sounds like you’re longing for more from your riding, OP.

OP, this horse was very lucky to find you. But I agree, I can understand your frustration with all the time and money you lost you were expected to put into your riding together as a team, versus managing his moods.

Not to harp on the trailer situation, though, but I think that until he can trailer reliably without heavy sedation, moving him is not realistic. Some barns might not want to take on a horse that clearly won’t be able to go to clinics and shows and participate in the full competitive life of the barn, or even just because if he ever had to be trailered for a medical reason, things would be potentially complicated and dangerous. Even if you ever passed him on to a very low-key rider or backyard barn, that rider might be even more apt to want a horse that could be trailered to trails or an outside trainer.

[IPEsq]

I don’t disagree that he’s likely doing well because he’s now in a very low pressure environment and he is a horse who has not tolerated more pressure well. But that seems like a necessary step in unwinding his issues. It’s better than just chucking him out in a field with the retirees because you have done some relationship building during this time. Building trust with this horse will go a long way when you do decide to up the ask a bit more.

Geographically, things can vary, but it is possible to find a barn with more amenities where you aren’t in a strict training program and where you can have some say in the care, feed program, turnout environment. Ideally, when you both are ready for this, there will be a trainer who can help you at this place or able to come into this place.

First, you will need to work on upping the ask because there are still basic life skills lacking, namely trailering. You will need some regular access to a rig to practice. Day one might be seeing if you can be in the general area of the trailer doing your other groundwork. Later on, you might ask for one foot in. Much later on possibly, he goes all the way in. If he’s really that bad, do not expect to get him loaded in the first session or maybe several sessions. You need to help him stay under threshold while being reintroduced to the idea of a trailer. Same as you’ve done with the other groundwork.

He also needs to learn to cope with having his threshold tested in other ways without going into fight mode. Like a little bigger ask on the ground. Asking him to follow one rein under saddle. Then connect one rein and one leg. Then two legs. Then two legs and two reins. If his issues are mostly mental and not physical, this can take some time and can be worked on at the halt and walk. I don’t think you need super riding amenities to do this if the rest of the environment he is in is conducive to him being relaxed and not overstimulated.

Another plug for taking a look at Warwick Schiller’s videos for some help with this horse.

[SadieRidingHorses]

@CBoylen

Your progress is extremely tenuous if you are “poking” and “flopping” as you describe it. Basically, you haven’t trained him; he has trained you. You stay out of his way and ask for nothing with no pressure, and he does fine. This is the cornerstone of the black stallion syndrome where the owner says “oh Pookey does just great for me but the professionals can’t ride him”. You’ll have exactly the same horse you had before as soon as someone asks him to do something that involves any kind of effort.

I am the second person to quote this, but it is so wise, that it warrants quoting it twice.

I agree with others that it would be best to take an honest inventory of your own goals, and if they include competing and outings with a dependable mount, then find a horse that is already doing that (even if it is not fancy at all), and ensure that this one continues to get solid, unrushed training, without being held to an external timetable.