WWYD if your horse injured a trainer?

[starsandsun]

I have had plenty of experiences where trainers got on my horse and made the situation VERY bad. I’ve also had a very small handful who know what the horse is trying to tell them and have a conversation rather than DEMANDING. What are the reasons why you need someone else on him?

And, FWIW, I’ve seen enough across the past decades to be more inclined to thoughtfully and fully explore why horses are not doing what we’re asking of them, rather than ascribe it to bad attitude or not wanting to do the work. I’m 1 million percent done with crank and spank.

[CHT]

As a trainer that was recently seriously injured by a client’s horse:

In my case, I was an idiot to get on the horse and own that fact. Horse is a spoiled older horse and expecting him to tolerate being made to go forward at a horse show was a big mistake. That said, I do have some, (perhaps misplaced) anger towards the owner, although I really hope she doesn’t know that. My anger is probably misdirected. I am a grown up who can make my own educated decisions, but i did feel manipulated. Don’t manipulate/cry/beg trainer to ride your horse…it doesn’t sound like you did or would.

The owner felt horrible when it happened, and still feels horrible. She did step up and organize people to look after the barn while I was in the hospital (DH was out of the country).

When you ask WWYD, I am guessing you would also feel horrible. And honestly, people here are talking more about $$, but a professional takes on a responsibility as the “expert” and as long as you didn’t withhold information, you should not be liable (I am not a lawyer, and am in Canada…we are less sue happy).

My guess is your pro may feel pressure to help with a quick fix/sudden improvement as I felt at that horse show. Perhaps letting her know you are fine with a slower improvement may really help make the situation better/safer.

I know of five local pros who all suffered serious injury on a client’s horse. It happens. Only you can know how you will feel about it, and how you will feel about your horse after.

[starsandsun]

I appreciate you sharing your perspective and what comes through for me is the need to step back from the quick fix. Any time (imho) emotions (horse, owner or trainer) are jacked up because of a sense of urgency, things won’t go well.

[NancyM]

Getting on green or “problem” horses is always a risk. Especially if they are not your own, and you may not know them as well as you know your own. Someone who comes to you once a week isn’t going to know this horse well. There are “cowboy types”, who think that a wild ride is somewhat “fun”. They all get hurt eventually, it seems. Sometimes someone like that may get the horse functional for you, but often they may not. I had one local one who told me that “if a horse bucks with him, he likes to be able to hit it with a whip in the eye, because that really hurts, and the horse learns to not do that any more”. I kid you not. I backed away carefully, in shock and dismay. This fella came recommended as “a great guy to start a green horse”. These types are out there… beware. The very best are those with a ton of confidence and experience, and a quiet, calm and confident way with horses. Riders who do not get on the horse until the horse is ready, and has the knowledge that is required before that happens. Sometimes it takes a while to get to that point. Depends on the rider, and the horse. But the risk of making a mistake at this point is still always there. Those who do this work accept the risk.
As with all horses, you need to find a trainer who will work with the horse daily, identify the problems or resistances or fears that the horse has, and work the horse through those things. Give the horse confidence, and guidance, and reward for the right choices. Teach him what you want him to know… “forward from the leg”, “steering”, “give to pressure” and that it’s OK for a human to be sitting on his back. If there is a physical issue/problem that is causing an issue with the training, identify that. Fix it if possible. If not possible, your horse is not a riding horse prospect.
The right trainer will give a horse confidence, and the horse will enjoy the training, become interested in the relationship that is developing, and want to please the trainer/rider. If your horse isn’t getting that, then the trainer is not as skilled as they profess to be. There is a LOT of that around, folks to claim skill, and actually have practically NONE. Don’t get sucked in. Your horse and your bank account will suffer, for no reason. Good luck!

[NaturallyHappy]

I’d like to add that some people who can ride well or teach riding really don’t know how to train horses. Riding a nicely made horse is very different than riding a green one or one w problems….at least, to me.

[fordtraktor]

I recall your situation and am sad to say I was right when I told you the horse would react poorly if you (or someone) put more pressure on him.

A really “nice” horse sold for cents on the dollar off the A circuit isn’t an easy fix.

Previous thread: How long would you wait before moving your horse to a more challenging environment/job?

[fordtraktor]

I should also say, as an attorney, that I hope you disclosed the history to the trainer. If not, you might be liable.

[IPEsq]

Is this the same living boarding situation and trainer that you posted about before? If so, sounds like the trainer knows his history. But also isn’t really a trainer. Do they have insurance?

More importantly, have you tried upping the pressure incrementally towards treating him like a trainer riding horse? How has that gone? Are you still working on a loose rein? Can he load in the trailer yet?

With this horse’s baggage, you’ve got to be really careful who gets on and who handles him. It sounds like this trainer is not the person. You also can absolutely shut down the training session if it’s bad. Yeah, horse will have gotten to stop for the day. But horse won’t be learning anything good anyway. This kind of horse needs a quiet conversation over perhaps a large number of sessions. It is not a quick tune up kind of horse. Yet. Maybe he’ll get there one day. He is restarting from less than 0, as restarts are often harder than blank slates.

If your trainer has been helping you make progress from the ground, continue on that way, but talk about some strategies for addressing the problems. If you have stalled, it might be time to learn from elsewhere. Or go back some steps and find the thing you missed.

[danhelm441]

This is a different trainer, younger but recommended by the farm owner. Definitely disclosed the full history with video where possible. She has a trailer and that’s part of the arrangement—weekly lessons with the possibility of her getting on when she felt appropriate, working up to trailering, and eventually training off-property. We did a couple lessons with me riding prior to this. I thought the lessons were going well. My horse was holding up fine, maybe a little tail flicking and head tossing but no feet leaving the ground, despite lots of leg, crop, and adrenaline. He just wasn’t moving or using himself the way she wanted, so she suggested swapping and I felt he would be fine.

Prior to leaving our previous training program, he had his teeth done, 4 weeks on omeprazole, a professional saddle fit (and I bought a new saddle), regular chiro visits, and a 30-day bute trial that did not effect any positive behavioral change. After we left, I pulled his shoes, reduced his hay (previously had free choice round bale, now he gets a big slow feed hay net because we aren’t set up for round bales here), and he’s in a stall that opens to a small dry lot run-out. Before, he was stalled 12hrs and out 12hrs on grass pasture with other horses. This is just to give detail on how his management has changed and also what I’ve looked into with respect to his health and soundness.

[Scribbler]

@fordtraktor

I recall your situation and am sad to say I was right when I told you the horse would react poorly if you (or someone) put more pressure on him.

A really “nice” horse sold for cents on the dollar off the A circuit isn’t an easy fix.

Previous thread: How long would you wait before moving your horse to a more challenging environment/job?

Yes I thought I recalled the situation too. Well, OP you have your answer. It’s too soon to put pressure on this horse.

[fordtraktor]

You haven’t been riding long and were convinced by a bad trainer to purchase a horse way outside your league to ride and train.

Sell the horse for a big loss, and buy a suitable one. That’s my honest advice, as an amateur with many years experience boarding often unsuitable horses for owners way outside their competence level, that I had no involvement in the purchase.

So glad to have my current trainer, who is willing to put her foot down and insist on an appropriate temperament!

[vxf111]

I’ll say the same thing here I said on that thread. You somehow managed to balance all the spinning plates. Stop trying to change things or accept that it will very likely all fall apart if you do.

Honestly this horse sounds like an accident waiting to happen and it’s just a matter of time.

[Arlomine]

Given the information from the previous thread, and this development… if you were my client I would tell you to sell the horse. You have become accustomed to accommodating his issues, and have been optimistically thinking that making some small changes a little at a time will lead to the right direction. But it doesn’t sound to me like that’s going to happen. I believe that you have made his life comfortable, he has trained you to back off when you approach areas of discomfort for him, and I don’t believe that you’re equipped to get through this safely.

This is a great big fat money pit. You were given bad advice originally, If you knew an extremely reputable trainer who specializes in troubled horses, you give it one last shot, but it doesn’t sound like you do, and frankly doesn’t sound like the horse is worth it.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Honestly… I had a young warmblood, been riding a lot more than you, and he was just very big and scopey when I needed smaller and more suitable to my goals… I did love him… he was stunning… but we were not a match. I swallowed some humble pie, found the right sales environment for him to shine, and moved on.
This is going to get you hurt. If you’re watching your horse go with a pro, and you are having severe anxiety symptoms as you described, then it’s time to move on. Maybe the horse does need a cowboy colt-starter, maybe it needs to be completely restarted, or maybe it just needs to sit in a field and grow up for a few years. What it does not need, is you paying the bills and trying to triage a dangerous and increasingly challenging situation. Cut your losses, regroup with the dollars you get, and get some more experience before jumping in full force again. Just because it seems like everyone is having “so much fun” with the young ones doesn’t mean it’s the truth. Green horses are hard and you have to sit it out a lot of times when they’re not ready or game to show. As you’re getting experience and mileage, find a partner that’s willing to be a good soul and participate, rather than a challenge and a headache.

[paw]

I think this may not be a good situation for you. The trainer might be just fine dealing with your horse, but if you don’t have confidence in the trainer, you’ll worry every time things get messy. And especially with horses who have (for lack of a better term) PTSD, things are going to get messy before they get better.

Dealing with horses like this is always a slow process - push a little outside the boundary, get a large reaction, work through the resistance; lather, rinse, repeat. Over (a long) time, the horse learns to trust (a little), and the rider learns the horse - every horse will resist, but the trick is in managing the resistance into a learning situation. Working with the horse, you’ll start to be able to tell when you’ve pushed a bit too far before the situation becomes explosive. But it’s not a quick journey, and not without missteps. And that’s ok - horses are, by and large, very forgiving animals when you take the time to listen to them.

But patience (with the horse and with yourself) is essential. If your main goal is to show, this is probably not the horse for you at the moment.

[paw]

And to answer the original question - when your horse injures a trainer you feel guilty. Really guilty.

[hut-ho78]

If the horse continually tries to stay behind the leg and becomes explosive when asked to move out better, look again for a pain source. Saddle fit, hoof angles, lyme or other tick borne disease, PSSM 1 or 2, kissing spines, cancer, etc. Keep looking. It may be the horse has bonded with you so is doing it’s best not to hurt you but is reactive because it just hurts.

[endlessclimb]

@Arlomine

This is a great big fat money pit.

Agreed. Even if this is a physical issue (which honestly sounds like the BEST case scenario for this horse, believe it or not), you will spend the purchase price of a nice horse looking for it, finding it (or maybe not), and treating it (if it is indeed physical). And even after all that, he can still have a junk attitude about work or anything changing, leaving you on eggshells around him.

This horse is not suitable. He sounds like a headcase anyways.

I pay too much money to deal with headcases. Like I said upthread - lots and lots of nice horses out there. They don’t even have to be easy per-say. But dangerous and explosive? Nope, I’m 100% out on that one.

[endlessclimb]

I want to say too - I’ve known horses like yours, OP. One in particular stands out.

Warmblood mare. By warmblood, I mean 1/4 draft against very nicely bred and temperamented Oldenburg and Hanoverian. She was bred, born, raised on the farm. It’s the local place’s “home” breeding program that is dedicated to ammy-friendly horses. The horses live outside 100% of their lives, on a total forage based diet. This breeding program and farm has produced hundreds of successful horses. Some fancier and more talented than others, but no issues with attitude. It’s their #1 priority.

This mare was different. Everyone had quit her, because she was absolutely terrified of anything and everything, despite a full physical workup. Even the very experienced and esteemed farrier had said “nope” after she blew her lid one too many times.

Some middle aged woman owned her, and it pained me to watch her handle her. That mare was on the verge of an explosion every second of her life. Remember, she was born and raised on this farm - she had seen this stuff for 9 years at this point. The lunge lines hanging by the arena - explosion. The saddle pads stacked on the shelf - explosion. The mats on the floor of the aisle - explosion. Having her feet rasped (by the owner, slowly, carefully) - explosion. A barn cat - explosion. Riding was out of the question. As soon as anyone saw her coming, the aisle got cleared and everyone tucked into a nook to be out of the line of fire from what we knew was coming.

Something was clearly wrong with her physically and/or mentally. You could spend a bunch of money trying to figure out what it is - and this woman did! - but nothing changed.

Think of the money she spent, and the kind of horse she could have bought for that money. How many years she spent not having fun, not improving her riding skills, etc.

Now for you and your horse - Could you maybe make something of him in 5 years? Sure! Lots of these glitter-filled princess stories on youtube and facebook. But those 5 years will be a flush for you in terms of money, fun, and skill improvement. They also could result in giant medical bills for you. They will almost certainly destroy any confidence you might have.

Get out from under this horse now. It’s good money after bad at this point.

Ok, stepping off my story-soap-box now.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

You said you were uncomfortable by his behavior (I’m assuming rearing or explosive bucking with the trainer). Was the new trainer uncomfortable? Have you ridden him sense and did he seem to have a hangover after she rode him, behaviorally?