WWYD if your horse injured a trainer?

[Arlomine]

Given the information from the previous thread, and this development… if you were my client I would tell you to sell the horse. You have become accustomed to accommodating his issues, and have been optimistically thinking that making some small changes a little at a time will lead to the right direction. But it doesn’t sound to me like that’s going to happen. I believe that you have made his life comfortable, he has trained you to back off when you approach areas of discomfort for him, and I don’t believe that you’re equipped to get through this safely.

This is a great big fat money pit. You were given bad advice originally, If you knew an extremely reputable trainer who specializes in troubled horses, you give it one last shot, but it doesn’t sound like you do, and frankly doesn’t sound like the horse is worth it.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Honestly… I had a young warmblood, been riding a lot more than you, and he was just very big and scopey when I needed smaller and more suitable to my goals… I did love him… he was stunning… but we were not a match. I swallowed some humble pie, found the right sales environment for him to shine, and moved on.
This is going to get you hurt. If you’re watching your horse go with a pro, and you are having severe anxiety symptoms as you described, then it’s time to move on. Maybe the horse does need a cowboy colt-starter, maybe it needs to be completely restarted, or maybe it just needs to sit in a field and grow up for a few years. What it does not need, is you paying the bills and trying to triage a dangerous and increasingly challenging situation. Cut your losses, regroup with the dollars you get, and get some more experience before jumping in full force again. Just because it seems like everyone is having “so much fun” with the young ones doesn’t mean it’s the truth. Green horses are hard and you have to sit it out a lot of times when they’re not ready or game to show. As you’re getting experience and mileage, find a partner that’s willing to be a good soul and participate, rather than a challenge and a headache.

[paw]

I think this may not be a good situation for you. The trainer might be just fine dealing with your horse, but if you don’t have confidence in the trainer, you’ll worry every time things get messy. And especially with horses who have (for lack of a better term) PTSD, things are going to get messy before they get better.

Dealing with horses like this is always a slow process - push a little outside the boundary, get a large reaction, work through the resistance; lather, rinse, repeat. Over (a long) time, the horse learns to trust (a little), and the rider learns the horse - every horse will resist, but the trick is in managing the resistance into a learning situation. Working with the horse, you’ll start to be able to tell when you’ve pushed a bit too far before the situation becomes explosive. But it’s not a quick journey, and not without missteps. And that’s ok - horses are, by and large, very forgiving animals when you take the time to listen to them.

But patience (with the horse and with yourself) is essential. If your main goal is to show, this is probably not the horse for you at the moment.

[paw]

And to answer the original question - when your horse injures a trainer you feel guilty. Really guilty.

[hut-ho78]

If the horse continually tries to stay behind the leg and becomes explosive when asked to move out better, look again for a pain source. Saddle fit, hoof angles, lyme or other tick borne disease, PSSM 1 or 2, kissing spines, cancer, etc. Keep looking. It may be the horse has bonded with you so is doing it’s best not to hurt you but is reactive because it just hurts.

[endlessclimb]

@Arlomine

This is a great big fat money pit.

Agreed. Even if this is a physical issue (which honestly sounds like the BEST case scenario for this horse, believe it or not), you will spend the purchase price of a nice horse looking for it, finding it (or maybe not), and treating it (if it is indeed physical). And even after all that, he can still have a junk attitude about work or anything changing, leaving you on eggshells around him.

This horse is not suitable. He sounds like a headcase anyways.

I pay too much money to deal with headcases. Like I said upthread - lots and lots of nice horses out there. They don’t even have to be easy per-say. But dangerous and explosive? Nope, I’m 100% out on that one.

[endlessclimb]

I want to say too - I’ve known horses like yours, OP. One in particular stands out.

Warmblood mare. By warmblood, I mean 1/4 draft against very nicely bred and temperamented Oldenburg and Hanoverian. She was bred, born, raised on the farm. It’s the local place’s “home” breeding program that is dedicated to ammy-friendly horses. The horses live outside 100% of their lives, on a total forage based diet. This breeding program and farm has produced hundreds of successful horses. Some fancier and more talented than others, but no issues with attitude. It’s their #1 priority.

This mare was different. Everyone had quit her, because she was absolutely terrified of anything and everything, despite a full physical workup. Even the very experienced and esteemed farrier had said “nope” after she blew her lid one too many times.

Some middle aged woman owned her, and it pained me to watch her handle her. That mare was on the verge of an explosion every second of her life. Remember, she was born and raised on this farm - she had seen this stuff for 9 years at this point. The lunge lines hanging by the arena - explosion. The saddle pads stacked on the shelf - explosion. The mats on the floor of the aisle - explosion. Having her feet rasped (by the owner, slowly, carefully) - explosion. A barn cat - explosion. Riding was out of the question. As soon as anyone saw her coming, the aisle got cleared and everyone tucked into a nook to be out of the line of fire from what we knew was coming.

Something was clearly wrong with her physically and/or mentally. You could spend a bunch of money trying to figure out what it is - and this woman did! - but nothing changed.

Think of the money she spent, and the kind of horse she could have bought for that money. How many years she spent not having fun, not improving her riding skills, etc.

Now for you and your horse - Could you maybe make something of him in 5 years? Sure! Lots of these glitter-filled princess stories on youtube and facebook. But those 5 years will be a flush for you in terms of money, fun, and skill improvement. They also could result in giant medical bills for you. They will almost certainly destroy any confidence you might have.

Get out from under this horse now. It’s good money after bad at this point.

Ok, stepping off my story-soap-box now.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

You said you were uncomfortable by his behavior (I’m assuming rearing or explosive bucking with the trainer). Was the new trainer uncomfortable? Have you ridden him sense and did he seem to have a hangover after she rode him, behaviorally?

[clanter]

@IPEsq

Do they have insurance?

even if they do have coverage their carrier most likely would at least be looking into recovering their loss from you(g)

[2DogsFarm]

@Arelle

don’t have a high opinion of trainers who are willing to do house calls

Beg to differ.
My Dressage trainer has a home base (her sister’s barn) & a couple school horses, along with a fair amount of clients she travels to.
She has trained her own horses to GP, clients’ to 3rd < that I’m aware of.
I don’t know what her lesson fee is at her barn & assume it’s higher if she travels.
She’s done this for almost 30yrs.

Returning to OP’s question:
When she came to my farm to work with me & my Ginormous - 17’3 - WB, she got on once to see what the problem was with his canter depart: was it me or him.
He’d get light in front, never a rear, but worrying to me.
She got the same response, told me she would not ride through it. I understood, training is her livelihood, we are both older & she can’t chance getting hurt.
We resolved it completely with her coaching me from the ground. It got so it felt like I just thought “canter” & got a lovely soft depart.

[Guyot]

I agree with all the others… life is short, you are already uncomfortable, find the horse another situation and get something you can have fun on.

I’m a pro and there are horses out there I cannot ride… nothing wrong with moving those horses along to another situation. And yes I have done the same with some of my own when we weren’t a good fit over the years.

As an aside, trainers, myself included do feel pressure to show results… sometimes from the client and sometimes from ourselves.

The BEST thing a owner can do in these situations is keep saying to the trainer; “do what you (trainer) feel comfortable with… don’t rush it, it takes what it takes.”

I sent my last baby out to be broke in… trainer was like well could take 1-3 months… I told her take as long as it takes. Do what you feel is best but I want her back quietly and confidently w/t/c. Took 4 1/2 months but the end result was exactly what I wanted and was happy to pay those extra months.

When sending them out there should be improvements but they can happen quickly or slowly and at any time plateau. I’ve had a retraining horse I thought I could bring around in a month or so… it took 4. My client was very good and I’m sure very frustrated and towards the end wanted to sell the horse. But after two weeks back on him she really fell back in love with her horse and he was exactly what her (secret) in search of ad was looking for. Sometimes you just have to have faith in the process.

All that said not all trainers are created equal and not all of us can fix or train every horse…

Overall, buy and keep a horse that brings you joy and towards your goals… there is NOTHING wrong or shameful about saying this isn’t working out. Remember it’s not working for the horse either … don’t deny either of you a chance and a better situation.

[danhelm441]

Obviously not what I want to hear, but I understand. I have heard this advice many, many times since getting him, and desperately did want to get rid of him on many occasions in the past, down to guiltily fantasizing that maybe a pasture accident would befall him and absolve me of having to make a decision or pass the buck to someone else. At least now with him going under saddle and in a much better place mentally, he could make a decent sales video and I wouldn’t feel like I had completely failed him. But it’s hard to give up now, when it feels like things are finally going better—I mean, not going perfect, but so much better than before.

[starsandsun]

Maybe you could be more specific about what he’s doing? Video of the uncooperative part? If things are going well, I wouldn’t get derailed by comments from others. You need to decide if it’s fun.

[Arlomine]

I understand. However… Be honest with yourself that it’s not better ENOUGH. I have had to make the same decision with a couple other horses in my life. The small gains give you hope… But if you step back from the situation it is more clear that the horse is not invested in improving. You really need that in order to make solid strides forward. I believe you have tried your hardest to figure out what his triggers are and work around them, being a very sensitive person. But that isn’t Get you to a fully functional horse, Or it would’ve done it by now.

[lynne]

We did a couple lessons with me riding prior to this. I thought the lessons were going well. My horse was holding up fine, maybe a little tail flicking and head tossing but no feet leaving the ground, despite lots of leg, crop, and adrenaline.

This does not sound like a horse that needs adrenaline-filled lessons, so maybe this trainer is not a good fit.

[danhelm441]

Maybe you could be more specific about what he’s doing? Video of the uncooperative part? If things are going well, I wouldn’t get derailed by comments from others. You need to decide if it’s fun.

I don’t have a video of what happened, and nothing like that has ever happened to me with him (though I would have come off much earlier before it could escalate). The way it happened is that she was clucking and smooching then immediately pulling back on the reins. She wanted him to raise his back and get round, but he was just speeding up. This actually went on for a long time before anything troubling happened. She escalated the pressure and was spurring harder and pulling harder, and he started a few small crow hops. She shut that down by sending him into a gallop. That seemed to work for a while, but then there were a lot of high velocity aerial stunts, some “if Simone Biles were a horse” moments, and then he just stopped, steaming, and she got off, backed him up a full lap around the arena, then lunged him in a tight circle to finish the session. I’ll be honest, I was upset because he was stumbling and cross cantering on the lunge and I didn’t think it was productive. I know training isn’t always sunshine and rainbows, and I’m not sure how I would have handled it in her position, but I just felt surely she could have broken it down into smaller steps and given him some little “wins” in there instead of continuing to ask the same question and escalate to an explosion. I talked through it with her to do a “post mortem” of what went down. She didn’t seem that rattled, but she was insistent I shouldn’t make excuses for the behavior, there was no way to break it down into smaller steps than what she was doing, and I needed to be working him harder on the lunge before future rides or I am setting him up to fail.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

What are your goals with this horse?

I admit, this would not be a horse for me. But (general question to COTH), could the OP ethically sell the horse? You said in the other thread he has a reputation in your area. You could sell him to someone cheaply as a horse “just to bomb around on with a long rein for fun,” true, but how could you be sure the buyer wouldn’t ask for collection and obedience and all the other things that seem to set him off mentally and, perhaps, physically?

I totally agree that the behavior of the new trainer sounded inappropriate. It truthfully sounded like she was trying to provoke an explosion and show he couldn’t get away with things. (So, circling back to the original question, maybe that eases your conscience.)

[initiate1987]

I would not use this trainer anymore from what your describing. Getting after an already reactive horse the way she did is rarely going to go well - and it didn’t. That’s putting the pressure on in all the wrong ways.

I’ll agree with others that you should probably cut your losses and sell, but in the meantime, I wouldn’t let this woman anywhere near your horse again.

[mika0116]

As an ammy who often rode some higher octane horses stepping down from 1.20m + as well as some greener, young WB sales horses as well as OTTBs … none of what you describe sounds productive and I would be horrified if my trainers got on my spicy lease horses and did this…

I’ve had trainers who are professional GP showjumpers who grew up on ranches in NorCal who don’t play ‘cowboy’ like this. Asking for forward and then pulling on the mouth is basically demanding a rear/ explosion. Spurring and pulling just … shouldn’t happen period, let alone with a horse who has a history with exploding with escalation of work effort / pressure.

I know you are very new to riding, please trust us with 25 years of horse experience to tell you that what you describe is dangerous, unprofessional, and hurting the horse that you are apparently very attached to.

This isn’t Black Beauty or the Black Stallion - this is your life and liability. The only things hurt are the people you involve, the horse, your bank account, and your physical body.

[endlessclimb]

OP, how would you describe your riding level?