Jesus. That is RIDICULOUS.
In no way is that anything close to how you get a horse to lift its back and keep impulsion. I am horrified. Jamming the horse with spurs into a hard hand is incredibly unfair. Lunging in a small circle teaches nothing when the horse is terrified.
OP, how would you describe your riding level?
Beginner/low intermediate. My goal with this horse was to improve my horsemanship and learn more about training and developing a horse, and to be more hands-on, less of a passenger, not having the trainer do everything for me, etc. So for example, I wanted to learn how to body clip a horse, I’ve never done it before, and so last weekend did a trace clip on him, and he was great about it. The fact that we used to need dorm gel and a stud chain to get him to stand for the farrier, and that he could barely stand in the barn aisle let alone cross tie, makes it that much more rewarding. Seeing how far he’s come with basic handling skills is what fueled my hope he could flourish in training. And I wouldn’t say that hope is gone, but I am in a tough spot making a judgment call about when and how to involve professional help. If I drop this trainer, that will be the 4th trainer I’ve churned through since getting him. I feel like I’ve learned a lot from him, I do get a lot of joy from working with him, and I wouldn’t say he’s hurt my confidence at all, honestly the opposite. But at the same time, I want to show and trail ride, go to clinics, have horse friends, where in our current situation, I feel isolated. I thought linking up with a professional and taking lessons would be a way to branch out and become embedded in a horse community. But I’m not sure it’s working out — one, because I don’t want anyone to get hurt, and two, because I don’t like the idea of paying someone to antagonize my horse for an hour each week, which is what it feels like even if it’s for his own edification. I guess I’m just at a crossroads with him. It’s a tremendous time* investment and, yes, rewarding in certain ways, but again, isolating, a bit alienating at times.
Appreciate your candor.
I wonder if what “you see” is not what is actually happening. Because to a beginner, asking a horse to come to the contact will look a lot like “clucking, while pulling back” when in reality that’s not at all what’s happening.
A horse that goes through 3 (maybe 4) trainers, is not suitable for a beginner.
You can try and make this a fairy tale story - but there are no guarantees. And you might get seriously injured. And you might never actually succeed.
This horse does not suit your goals right now. I can find you an OTTB today that does not have all these issues, and will be able to teach you everything you wanted to know about bringing on a horse. But the horse won’t be a “warmblood” and that might be a ticket item for you. I don’t know.
Is it fair to say he generally gives some warning that he’s on the edge before he blows or is it pretty unpredictable? If it’s the former, a tactful trainer MAY be able to defuse/work around this slowly and methodically without inciting a riot, especially if he’s now in a better headspace in general. However whether a) that’s what you want to deal with over months/years, or b) you can find the right person for the job, is unknown. Best case scenario, it’s a long road with a lot of uncertainty and trial/error. There is zero shame in saying that this horse is too much/not what you want, and moving on.
This also reminds me a lot of a horse I knew with back/neck issues, so I’d be very curious to know if any diagnostics have been done in that regard.
That’s ridiculous. Asking a horse to come into contact properly should look nothing like that, or what the OP is describing, to a beginner or anyone else.
OP, you seem very intuitive and you know what you are seeing is not correct. While this may not be the right long-term partnership for you, I applaud you for continually trying to do right by the horse and seeking input when something seems off.
You and I both have no idea of the OP’s actual skills.
I was asked by a self-appointed expert why I always pulled on my horse’s face at a previous barn. I was doing no such thing, the horse was going around on a lovely contact.
Contact IS sending a horse forward (clucking) into the hand (“pulling back”).
Maybe. But I’m thinking there’s about a gazillion things this horse needs to strengthen & figure out before that’s a fair ask.
I dunno, I usually give a lot leeway to amateurs’ descriptions of professionals, but I saw nothing but Yikes in that paragraph.
Well, you have described really piss poor training session with an immature trainer. I don’t know that it significantly changes my perception about the safety and viability of the horse, going forward for you, but for sure keep that person away from him.
This is dangerous thinking. It is along the lines of “my horse won’t hurt me he loves me”. Horse’s don’t think that way - the horse will do what it feels it needs to, to escape pain/pressure/confusion. They are reacting, not calculating.
Yes, she described it as sending the horse forward into restraining hands to catch the momentum and push up instead of letting him drag himself along on the forehand. The trainer is knowledgeable and successful with other people’s horses. She came to help me out as a favor to the BO because they’re friends, so not just some random I found in the yellow pages. She knows how to make up a successful show horse. But I was thinking, with her resume, maybe it’s like a prep school teacher whose only experience is educating the Harvard-bound elite. If you work exclusively with exceptional horses, and your clients will sell or pass on any horse that can’t meet your standards, maybe you can get away with methods that wouldn’t work with your average horse. It doesn’t mean the horse is unteachable, it just requires better teaching. That is how I was rationalizing it to myself on the drive home, at any rate, because I realize it’s pretty rich for an adult beginner to question someone with a legit track record with successful horses.
What is the trainer’s background? I’m reserving a bit of judgment, because yes, a beginner isn’t going to always describe a training ride accurately. However, nothing there sounds like it’s coming from a trainer that is focused on making up a horse that works for an inexperienced rider. She may or may not be off base, but it definitely doesn’t sound like the right fit for your situation as you described it in the previous thread. If you are describing it accurately (again, it’s possible you are not, without fault or malice on your part) it sounds like a local level trainer with poor skills who thinks she does dressage.
I am far from an expert, and we do have experts on the forum, but it really sounds like she deliberately tried to “provoke” his behaviors, so she could deal with them. Whether that is the right thing to do, I would not presume to say. But many trainers will do that, because essentially, it’s no good as a training session in their view if you just show what the horse and you are comfortable doing and call it a day. On the other hand, I certainly understand wanting a different approach.
Not defending the trainer, btw, again I am NOT one in IRL, but just saying it might not be some total yahoo trying to whoop, buck, and lunge the yeehaws out of a horse and saw him into false contact.
It sounds like you are leaning towards selling–if you did sell, what would be your options there? If you get a different trainer, what would be your options then?
I’m wondering the same about the perception vs reality for OP, especially the “if Simone Biles was a horse” comment but trainer wasn’t that rattled (although given the severity/emotion of their reaction, maybe they’re just putting on a brave face?)… Could be that what OP says happened is exactly what happened. Could be that it’s not at all what happened. Realistically, it’s probably somewhere in the middle, (although I’d keep a close eye on trainer’s methods going forward - as described, her reaction certainly didn’t impress me). Plenty of “successful” people out there with piss poor training methods.
In any case, I agree with the general sentiment here - if you’re a beginner and you want to learn how to develop a horse (not that it’s generally my first recommendation, but it can work out with the right situation), you should look for a quieter/good-brained horse that’s already going nicely with potential for more. I really don’t think this horse fits the bill.
Regardless of whether it was a problem on the horse end or the rider end, if the owner is asking themselves “what would I do if someone got hurt?” because that seemed like a genuine risk-- it’s a BAD SITUATION that should not be repeated.
Hands are NEVER restraining. If she’s possibly trying to describe the micro-second half halt to encourage the horse to balance himself into a connection that is powered from behind, she’s neither using right imagery or tools or TIMING to make it happen.
Which by the way is a goal of long term training and education of horse and rider, not a one-and-done.
And, I am not a trainer. I have ridden with BNTs, one of whom asked to get on my horse and then rode him into a wall because she demanded his compliance rather than listening for what he might understand. I have kicked my trainer off my horse and out of a lesson with a BNT because that person was abusive and my trainer blindly listened. I have worked with many crappy trainers, and a very few who really understand how to ask and find harmony.
That’s why this pisses me off so much. Sorry.
Do you all realize how hard it is to describe this type of stuff to a beginner? The trainer was likely describing it the only way it could possibly be even MARGINALLY understood, and then it was repeated, not verbatim but instead roughly summarized, here.
I’d be very very very hesitant to lambast a trainer based on anything described.
I am not saying anyone has malice or intent in this case, but I would need to see the situation first hand, or hear about it from someone I trust exclusively, before I came to any judgement.
The only thing that’s clear is that this horse above this owner’s skill level. Period.
So fire the trainer.
This is exactly the kind of rough handed training behavior that’s got you in trouble multiple times.
And honestly by this point you need to be able to step in and stop this kind of abusive nonsense in real time.
The trainer fiddles with the horse riding off the hand to get some notion of collection horse isn’t currently ready for. Then she starts spur and yank until he gets explosive then she revs him up and then punishes him.
She’d get an explosion from a saint doing this.
You need a trainer with some actual tools on their kit not a heavy handed spur N crank with anger issues.
OP, name the trainer. If everyone is so sure this was a yank-n-spank session, you should have no issues outing them.
That might offer some clarity as to what actually happened here.
I have an instructor (with insurance) who comes to me, she is good but not only would she not get on one of my horses, I wouldn’t ask. With the cost of property being what it is, I think traveling trainers are going to be more common and it will be up to them to determine if the property they arrive to is suitable for what’s being asked.
This in spades
However this sounds like garbage and I’d be less worried about your trainer getting hurt and more concerned about lack of emotional intelligence displayed here.
Quoting this from your other thread, OP…
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