I think myself and others who are saying dangerous is merely saying horse is dangerous to OP because of their beginner level, lack of experience with horses, keeping the horse at home and perhaps not knowing “the most” when it comes to horse care and horsemanship.
I may not remember correctly, but I believe this is first horse for an adult beginner who never rode as a child / junior.
This horse would not be dangerous likely with a good professional, capable AA, or well schooled junior who took an OTTB to Prelim eventing.
This is from the original thread as well. Red flags all over the place. This horse sounded like a pro-ride from the start, and now he’s been out of work, fed very well, and been catered to and coddled for at least a full year.
He’s also not all that young, if you look at the timelines and add it up.
That’s me, and I stand by it. Even if this trainer isn’t doing anything actually wrong in real life, it’s not the right approach for this situation. It’s back to square one. It was a predictable result.
Honestly, as a trainer, with all of the information from the other thread, addressing it head on like that would not have been my go-to. But results may have been the same regardless, and I’m not the one who was on it at the time. It’s possible the trainer is great, good, bad, or awful. I will say though there is a big difference in how you approach training a horse for a beginner owner/rider versus just training the horse. Your goals are very different.
I’d like to know what happened to the older, been-there done-that horse that OP had previously and enjoyed showing in the 2’ divisions, because I would like her to get him back and then treat him like the royalty he is for the rest of his life.
Completely off topic but when I slipped on ice and broke my ankle in late Jan 2022, I was shocked when my medical insurance called and sent letters trying to see if another source could be found liable for my accident ( and pay) . So yes, I bet they would come knocking.
I am surprised he didn’t get her off and I am not surprised he did what he did. This isn’t training. It is abuse. He had no idea what she was asking and instead of realizing that she upped the pressure and forceful methods. Poor guy.
If this was the " training" he received at the previous training barn, no wonder he is a mess.
I haven’t seen anyone saying a horse won’t hurt someone because they love them. Horses tend to move first and think later, being prey, so anyone in their way or seen as a threat are just victims of circumstances or their own bad judgment.
If a horse is in pain, they are very, very dangerous although some will tolerate a great deal of pain without a violent reaction. They will try to communicate that the best way they can. That can be mistaken for disobedience or mishandling or being “hot.”
All horses are not the same. There is a difference between the horse that will aim and kick the rider as the rider is falling off and the horse that will carefully place its hooves or freeze if a rider falls in a heap under the horse. Good kid horses may be 3 legged lame but if trustworthy be worth their weight in gold.
If a horse trusts a handler/rider then it is less quick to find that person a threat and is safer to handle. Instead of running over the handler, it can even use a shoulder to nudge the handler out of the way as it spooks by. However, horses will react to pain (though it can be amazing as to how much pain they can tolerate) and when they do, if it is painful enough, they can hurt themselves and others.
Pushing any horse that is in pain past it’s level of tolerance can lead to a massive train wreck and a horse so ruined, it may never mentally recover no matter how forgiving they tend to be. That doesn’t count the injuries to the handlers and damage to facilities and equipment.
We don’t always know they are hurting. Our veterinarians may not find the issue for years and years and advise us they are ok until they find it and recommend euthanasia or surgery and ask questions like how often does this horse that you rode safely (you thought) the day before have seizures. However, explosive reactions to cues most horses normally respond to in a certain way bear investigation for pain.
A horseman avoids unnecessary major blowups, is sensitive to triggers, takes time to get to know the horse, and works the horse consistently, working toward a required response. It’s the difference between a horse not wanting to cross a ditch or load in a trailer but finally doing so safely even if it takes all day of quiet persistence and becoming easier to cross ditches with and load over time and one flipping over backwards, breaking gear, injuring itself and its handlers, and never improving. It’s building confidence and the habit of obedience.
If a horse isn’t helping someone achieve their goals and that person is frustrated, they can get help, retire the horse, sell it with full disclosure, or perhaps for a problem horse that is dangerous, euthanasia may be the kindest solution. If a person is improving the horse and finding a personal reward in doing so, great. It’s really up to the individual, the horse, and the support team.
This owner is making progress and has support. He or she may not realize it yet but they are learning valuable lessons on handling horses and unfortunately, the hard way, what kind of trainers to avoid. It’s great for the horse if the owner sticks with it but it may not be what the owner wants.
My comment for for the owner to look for pain for explosive behavior is based on safety. No training method, kind or brutal, will in the end succeed on a horse in a situation of continuous pain until the pain is resolved.
QUOTE
I don’t have a video of what happened, and nothing like that has ever happened to me with him (though I would have come off much earlier before it could escalate). The way it happened is that she was clucking and smooching then immediately pulling back on the reins. She wanted him to raise his back and get round, but he was just speeding up. This actually went on for a long time before anything troubling happened. She escalated the pressure and was spurring harder and pulling harder, and he started a few small crow hops. She shut that down by sending him into a gallop. That seemed to work for a while, but then there were a lot of high velocity aerial stunts, some “if Simone Biles were a horse” moments, and then he just stopped, steaming, and she got off, backed him up a full lap around the arena, then lunged him in a tight circle to finish the session. I’ll be honest, I was upset because he was stumbling and cross cantering on the lunge and I didn’t think it was productive. I know training isn’t always sunshine and rainbows, and I’m not sure how I would have handled it in her position, but I just felt surely she could have broken it down into smaller steps and given him some little “wins” in there instead of continuing to ask the same question and escalate to an explosion. I talked through it with her to do a “post mortem” of what went down. She didn’t seem that rattled, but she was insistent I shouldn’t make excuses for the behavior, there was no way to break it down into smaller steps than what she was doing, and I needed to be working him harder on the lunge before future rides or I am setting him up to fail. QUOTE
NO, just NO! This is NOT training. And certainly not training for a horse like this… you have to train the brain and link each step together in the horses mind not ours.
Whenever I hear/read about a horse with persistent, occasionally explosive behavior issues, this case comes to mind.
I’m not suggesting the OP’s horse is as issue-riddled as Apollo, but there are absolutely pain issues that take a lot of searching to uncover (beyond exams, radiographs, and so on).
I agree that if this went down as OP describes, one can hardly blame the horse or label them as “dangerous”. That said, much of this “dangerous” horse stuff in these comments is coming after OP’s previous thread about this same horse. The TL;DR if you haven’t read it already is OP (a beginner) was pressured to buy a green warmblood at a too-good-to-be-true price and later learned of some questionable incentives the trainer had as well as a the reputation the horse had acquired prior to being purchased. Now she has spent the last ~2 years trying to make the situation work and this is where she’s at.
Anyone saying this trainer was explaining something to a beginner rider in crude terms that’s why it’s kick cluck and hold…
ummm explain to me where jumping off and backing up a horse for a lap around the ring then lunging it in a small circle, TRAINS any horse let alone one in this circumstances… this is NOT training!
Even assuming that’s not what happened from a contact perspective - the backing up, the lunging, I just…NO.
That’s how several horses have ended up given to me. Their minds get blown by training like this, and then I spend months diddling about on a loose rein until they are sane enough to even attempt contact again.
I would definitely check his poll for soreness and maybe do a bute test (does no one do these anymore?). But some horses really do not like the feeling of being trapped, moreso than others, and so the negotiation into contact is much much trickier than the average bear. The fact that he’s so adamant about the trailer says to me that he might be that type. I have one like that now - extremely assertive/dominant horse and you cannot bully him. You will lose. Every ride is a negotiation.
Please don’t let this “trainer” ride your horse again.
Without passing any judgement on either side this is what happens with unrealistic expectations on both sides.
Nobody can make a horse thats unsuitable for a novice rider into a safe ride with ONE ride a week. Nobody. OP needs to realize shes not going to advance as a rider with this horse without regular coaching and Pro rides.
That trainer over estimated her own ability to reverse the downward slide in horse’s behavior in one session as well. Should know better. So should that BO who thought one ride a week would suffice.
OP, the horse is unsuitable for you. You were misled and are in over your head. The reason many are telling you this is not because we feel superior. Far from it. No, the reason is we have made the same mistake and seen others do the same. We dont want you to continue dumping time and money into an unsuitable match or getting more then your feelings hurt.
While mulling this over, you need to seek better mentors and advisors who will not take advantage of you. The paid advice you are shelling out for has been as unsuitable as that horse.
Hate to see it but it’s a common scenario for those new to the sport.
THIS!
In fact, what you described @danhelm441 is pretty much what I was doing (in a much less forceful way) that had my WB resisting a soft depart.
And the solution was for me to LET GO when I asked.
I’m going to add he came to me as a 15yo former GP Jumper, so his reaction was exactly what was asked in the showring.
When a horse is resistant to contact and behind the leg, start with the behind the leg problem. You want the leg to mean “go”. And I would not be doing any holding back of the horse until that is consistently fully understood. In fact, I personally like my horses so forward that I just kind of lift them with my thighs and they go. I don’t introduce any sort of contact until they have that lesson solid. I’ll steer with an opening rein, but other than that, they go - especially if they’ve had any sort of balling up issues.
Step 2, is to start touching the mouth. I proceed incredibly carefully here with a rehab. I start out of the tack, in a half seat, at the trot. I don’t touch the mouth at the walk until they’ve got it - too much potential for a rear. So I get that nice forward trot, working on loopy bending lines etc. and then I shorten the reins until I am just touching the mouth with ONE rein. This can be the inside or the outside, but typically the outside is best. Sometimes though with a horse who is really fudged, they don’t like the outside rein touched so you have to reteach them.
So I touch the outside rein softly on and off until I can have a light connection on the outside rein. Not enough to ask for collection. Not enough to look like a dressage horse. And that connection should be dynamic, not static. Then once they are happy with that and “get it”, I work my way to tiny squeezing half halts on the inside rein. And I’m talking about just squeezing gently, almost twitching my ring finger levels of sensitivity. You would not be able to see that from the ground.
If I sense the horse balling up in any way shape or form or even hesitating I let go and let them go forward immediately, then go back a step - they weren’t ready.
The first goal is always forward.
Eventually, they start trusting the hand. I’ll also typically try a mullen or other very steady bit for these types - typically they don’t like the movement and the lack of ability to “get away” from a jointed bit.
Obviously rule out pain first. I like to do a 2 day bute test - give a couple of grams of bute for 2 days then ride. If there is any improvement, you’ve got pain as an answer. It’s definitely cheaper than still more medical tests that might not be able to find the problem. If you want to throw the book at it, then I suggest watching the Equitopia video on the matter (someone has to have a link, I can’t find it right now), and trying the progressive nerve blocks.
There’s no harm in moving this horse on if you don’t feel you want to persist. I don’t think he’s dangerous, just quite misunderstood and possibly in pain. But that’s how I keep getting horses LOL
