how many lines?

My last question here was such a rollicking success, I thought I’d try again :rolleyes:

Thanks to the power of marketing, every time I think about driving mules, I hear “20-mule team Borax”.

And that got me to thinking about how many LINES you use on a big hitch (is that the right word?) like that. I know the driver’s not up there holding 40 LINES

So how many LINES for the different driving configurations? And does it make a difference what you’re doing with the horses/mules? Would you sometimes use X LINES with six horses, and other times Y?

(Edited in an attempt to keep anyone else from sighing)

You use one - it’s called a jerk line. The line is on the near lead, and the driver is seated on either the wagon box or the near wheel horse (always horses on wheel, and 18 mules). Steering is a combination of jerk line and a long whip. Been a long time since I thought about jerk lines, and just about remember being told about them. sorry, just can’t dig that deep into my memory and no one left here that can remember jerk lines either.

There are a couple of videos but I am not sure how useful they will be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-0ClCe0VGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbgB_uxj6rM

Lead animal responds to a numbered jerk for one direction, steady pull for the other direction, if I recall correctly. The Borax 20 Mule Hitch was set up for specific condtions, not a common hitch anyplace. With the bending road, reins would have been ineffective or gotten hung up on the rock walls as the animals worked their way around the S curves or other unique features of that awful road. Mules in the middle had to jump the chain in both directions, to make the curves! People were busy working the brakes on the heavily loaded wagons behind!

http://20muleteammuseum.com/history.html

Other hitches of multiples can have a variety of rein arrangements. Stagecoach drivers had reins to each horse, using 4-6-8 animals. Conestoga wagon drivers also used a jerkline, rode the wheelhorse as freighters on the East coast before the Civil War. Plains freighters used reins to the animals, jerkline was not very common there. City freight drivers would also have reins to each animal.

The early combine crews on the Great Plains often only drove the lead horses on the 20 to 40 horse hitches cutting grain. Just tied in the other horses of the hitch. Even with fewer reins, the length of reins to driver, made the reins extremely heavy, drivers would trade because of muscle fatigue.

The 40 horse hitches that were exhibited in the Midwest had all the horses with reins on. The drivers would switch pretty often, reins were well over 100 pounds even with no pull by the horses. They had to control each animal to be able to do their fancy manuevers like the figure 8, circles etc, in front of the crowds.

I guess what the rein arrangement is for each hitch, is dictated by tradition and how many animals are out front.

This is what I was trying to remember. No one left to ask. Last man here who could drive jerk line died many years ago and the one left who would remember the few here barely knows his own name now.

sigh They are called LINES, you drive with lines, you ride with reins…

[QUOTE=SmokenMirrors;5140499]
sigh They are called LINES, you drive with lines, you ride with reins…[/QUOTE]

:no: You’ve done it again! Just the same as wheelers.

So it’s reins and in SOME parts of the world in SOME parts of the country ordinarily when it’s agricultural horses they might call them LINES.

It’s quite correct to call them reins though.

[QUOTE=Risk-Averse Rider;5140144]
My last question here was such a rollicking success, I thought I’d try again :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] :lol: That did make me giggle!

And that got me to thinking about how many LINES you use on a big hitch (is that the right word?) like that. I know the driver’s not up there holding 40 LINES
“Reins” is quite quite correct. Though sometimes, some people call them “lines”,

I’ve a really funny quote from a really old book on heavy horse ploughing competitions about what it should rightly and properly be called. But I suspect if I repeat it here that some people might get terribly :mad:

(Edited in an attempt to keep anyone else from sighing).
I didn’t see your post till after you’d edited it and presume you’d done so after Smoken Mirrors comment.

Don’t worry though you were quite right calling them reins. Though when horses or mules are harnessed as the 20 mule team carrying huge loads and they’re walked then often they’re going to be called lines or even ropes.

Appreciate that this isn’t sophisticated driving. It’s heavy rough hard haulage. No more and no less.

So with lines or reins… Suffice it to say that in Europe and in the USA too when it’s heavy horses then it’s absolutely correct to say reins when you’re sitting on board driving and lines or ropes when you’re on the ground leading them or if you’re driving them walking at the side of the cart as you would with a loaded hay cart or a plough.

So how many LINES for the different driving configurations? And does it make a difference what you’re doing with the horses/mules? Would you sometimes use X LINES with six horses, and other times Y?
Goodhors posting is pretty much spot on.

The only thing I’d add is that if the combination is a multiples of coaching horses so in other words something like a state coach or a very grand funeral hearse then rather than reins or lines you’d be likely to have the horse driven postilion.

Postilion is also how the elite would be driven even when it’s not necessarily a heavy vehicle with a large number of horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXFFIdOh1tU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zm1r_M8OMY&feature=related

OK, I’m gonna go out this morning and drive with lines instead of the reins I always use. Didn’t know I had that all wrong. Wonder if the ponies will notice the difference? :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5140782]
:no: You’ve done it again! Just the same as wheelers.

So it’s reins and in SOME parts of the world in SOME parts of the country ordinarily when it’s agricultural horses they might call them LINES.

It’s quite correct to call them reins though.[/QUOTE]

Dear Thomas…in 8 years of driving, I have NEVER heard them called reins, be it fine driving or agricultural driving as you so nicely put it. What you hold to drive are called lines. And I have done both…

[QUOTE=SmokenMirrors;5140927]
Dear Thomas…in 8 years of driving, I have NEVER heard them called reins, be it fine driving or agricultural driving as you so nicely put it. What you hold to drive are called lines. And I have done both…[/QUOTE]

Guess it depends on where you are located, whom you talk to, what the most common name is. Thomas is quite correct, lines or reins, both are in common use for driving horses in the USA and other places.

My grandfather called them reins, was a farm driver of drafts and buggy horses. His good friend down the road who drove the same kinds of horses called them lines. They had a lot of fun over MANY years giving each other a bad time over “using the wrong name” for the reins/lines. They both were “newcomers” to the area, moving here from different towns about 30 miles away, but both very experienced horsemen, driving from childhood. The rein or line common name was what each learned from childhood. Same background, same area, different words.

I have heard lines and reins used interchangably since I entered the Driving world. This would include attending large Draft functions like the Great Lakes here in Michigan, as well as the best carriage driving shows and CDEs. Did either name usage affect the skills of the horses or driver? Not that I could see!!

Lines or reins, getting petty over terminology is silly. We all understand what is being said, so what is the point? No one is WRONG when they say either! And to give arguing over “correctness” space on the Forum is a big waste of space and time. Proper name use will not improve YOUR driving skills. In the long run nothing will change despite arguing, only one or two people REALLY CARE about the name anyway!

You can discuss things without making or taking remarks PERSONALLY. More than one way to do things “right” because it is a BIG WORLD.

Hey Guys… can we concentrate on the meat of the topic rather than the semantics. You can’t have an argument with one.

Here’s a couple of fun other videos

20 Mule team with original Borax wagons and looks like 25 mule team pulling several hitch wagons in a line with a jerk line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYgd1Yg_k7w&NR=1

20 mule team with apparently no reins/lines/rope (see how awkward that gets) but rather a sidewalker and rider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRGmkYxQXDc&feature=related

Schlitz 40 horse hitch in Great Circus Parade (note as they come around the corner a LOT of those horses are around the corner before you see the driver)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TozNFBwhA7k

46 horse hitch - 2 lines/reins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6zDCLcia6w&NR=1

[QUOTE=SmokenMirrors;5140927]
Dear Thomas…in 8 years of driving, I have NEVER heard them called reins, be it fine driving or agricultural driving as you so nicely put it. What you hold to drive are called lines. And I have done both…[/QUOTE]

urm seems you are still learning so i very much doubt you have done both when you dont know what these are

and asked for advice
quoting you

Is anyone on here familiar with hames covers? Several weeks ago we were a prop for family photo’s for a neighbor who wanted our team and an antique wagon. I had a friend who came over to be with me as he has been driving forever, and could position the team a bit better than I can as I am still learning. He brought over hames covers that went well with our antique harness and the folks we went to loved how we did our turn out.

I recently got my own hames covers that will go very well with all the brass on the work harness and until now, didn’t know what they were used for.
Reply With Quote un quote

so in conclusion as to with the topic of reins /lines /ropes whatever
then i think i will stick to one that has a proven carreer and background in there carriage driving
and would rather learn from someone that knows whats what and goes where on a horse or horse and carriage as single or multipules to include 4 in hand and more if nessecary

and i would like to add the person your refering to has more than just 8yrs worth of driving try decades then you might realise that if your learning as no doubt you are then one would be wise to listen to a proven instructor and compeditor who has driven with an elite group that lets say one such as yourself hasnt been privvy to yet

be wise smoking mirrors rather than attempt to know whats what
and nitpick
open your ears and listen to what is actually said in the written word

in some parts of the world they are called lines etc

he then said

its quite correct to call them reins

[QUOTE=Drive NJ;5141041]
Hey Guys… can we concentrate on the meat of the topic rather than the semantics. You can’t have an argument with one.

Here’s a couple of fun other videos

20 Mule team with original Borax wagons and looks like 25 mule team pulling several hitch wagons in a line with a jerk line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYgd1Yg_k7w&NR=1

20 mule team with apparently no reins/lines/rope (see how awkward that gets) but rather a sidewalker and rider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRGmkYxQXDc&feature=related

Schlitz 40 horse hitch in Great Circus Parade (note as they come around the corner a LOT of those horses are around the corner before you see the driver)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TozNFBwhA7k

46 horse hitch - 2 lines/reins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6zDCLcia6w&NR=1[/QUOTE]

there was another one i saw that had loads of chestnut belgiums for the life of me cant find it as in ploughing match or something

those were good fun

Probably this one with 2 drivers and 48 horses plowing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcCyMRON1zk&p=8DD8295AEE5E5830&playnext=1&index=34

We have friends who rode in the Circus Parade several times, including the last time they drove the 40 horse hitch.

The amazing thing with these big hitches is how the horses are often not owned by one person or company, but come from various farms and are put together for the big day and then go home.

Circus Parade practice with team owned by one farm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=142sj1E4uec

And then this - could not resist - they are just too cute :slight_smile: Only need to watch the first half
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-QzTqDxY4I&p=8DD8295AEE5E5830&index=36&playnext=2

Thanks DriveNJ, the Weiner Wagon was hysterical!! Never saw such an 8-up before! They all appear to be having a great time. Should we call them a “jerk line team”?

The other videos were also great to watch, thanks for posting them.

[QUOTE=Drive NJ;5141399]
Probably this one with 2 drivers and 48 horses plowing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcCyMRON1zk&p=8DD8295AEE5E5830&playnext=1&index=34

We have friends who rode in the Circus Parade several times, including the last time they drove the 40 horse hitch.

The amazing thing with these big hitches is how the horses are often not owned by one person or company, but come from various farms and are put together for the big day and then go home.

Circus Parade practice with team owned by one farm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=142sj1E4uec

And then this - could not resist - they are just too cute :slight_smile: Only need to watch the first half
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-QzTqDxY4I&p=8DD8295AEE5E5830&index=36&playnext=2[/QUOTE]

yeah thats it,
haha loved the dogs hahaha on the leads or should i say lines haha

Aren’t you special goeslikestink…[edit] Glad to see that you know everything there is to know about driving and all the plethora of definitions.

[QUOTE=SmokenMirrors;5142596]
Aren’t you special goeslikestink…you may want to look in the mirror and wipe the brown off your nose…also look up what sycophant means…your photo is right by the definition…:smiley:

Glad to see that you know everything there is to know about driving and all the plethora of definitions.[/QUOTE]

your funny, and yeah thanks i know i am special nice to know you notice lol

[QUOTE=SmokenMirrors;5142596]
Aren’t you special goeslikestink…you may want to look in the mirror and wipe the brown off your nose…also look up what sycophant means…your photo is right by the definition…:smiley:

Glad to see that you know everything there is to know about driving and all the plethora of definitions.[/QUOTE]

your funny and no mate i dont bum lick its not my style

ooh that pea will get big by winter it will be snowball lol

[QUOTE=goodhors;5141453]
Thanks DriveNJ, the Weiner Wagon was hysterical!! Never saw such an 8-up before! They all appear to be having a great time. Should we call them a “jerk line team”?

The other videos were also great to watch, thanks for posting them.[/QUOTE]

good wasnt they, got me thinking wonder what they would call them when using reindeers and huskies lol
haha prehaps thats why they called reindeers as you can drive them lol