How much contact needed for headset

[Dressage_Strider]

I have been working on getting my horse to soften, work from his hindquarters and lift his back for about 4 years.

I trained it by asking for his hq and creating a wall with my hands if he tried to speed up, and then asking for flexion with my leg. He never leaned on my hand but truly softened.

He can hold himself in a bridle, hackamore or even halter.

Now he holds a good training level frame easily, and has [B][U]maybe [B][U] 3 pounds in my hands, but mostly just holds it from my leg.

i took a lesson the other day where the instructor had me shorten my reins by about 10-14"

My horse lifted his head and went around very nice in more of a 1st or 2nd level frame, but it was much much heavier and harder for both of us.

When do I shorten the reigns and ask more? How much is too much as far as weight in the reins?

I have practiced a few times just moving back and forth in the different headsets, and it’s not like we are pulling tug of war or anything, I wouldn’t even say he is leaning on me when I just make him hold it for a round or so and then go back to lower headset - just that he doesn’t have the strength to hold his head that way without my help.

Will holding it build the muscles? Or will it just teach him to lean on me?

[Iolanthe]

If you’re thinking in terms of a “head set,” then it’s time to go back to square one and start over.

[Nestor]

[QUOTE=Iolanthe;8833292]
If you’re thinking in terms of a “head set,” then it’s time to go back to square one and start over.[/QUOTE]

Amen.

OP, the carriage of the head changes because how the horse carries its body changes. Not the other way around. You should shorten your reins after the horse has collected a bit and shortened his frame, not shorten your reins to shorten the horse and bring his head up.

You don’t train a headset. You train the horse to lift his back and engage his hind end, which in time causes him to lift his shoulders and be able to step further underneath. None of this involves the head.

[RedHorses]

You should be able to tell when he’s leaning on you versus asking for a stronger contact. Yes, when the work gets harder and you start asking for him to shift more weight to his hindend he is likely to want a stronger contact at first. As long as you don’t just hold him up (which will encourage leaning) you can give him the extra contact as you work towards him carrying himself more. As he gets stronger, he will be happy with the lighter contact again.

[AZ_TD]

Here is a link that explains some of the basics of the training scale. http://www.usdf.org/about/about-dressage/dressage-training.asp

[Velvet]

With only 11 posts, I think this is just a troll.

Velvetwhoiscurledinacornerafterreadingheadset

[Dressage_Strider]

I understand that - but I guess I am having trouble knowing at what point to ask for more.

If I just ask more from the hq and for him to lift his back more, he is just going to loose it unless I block it with my hands. So when I close my hands if I have asked correctly it will result in a headset.

[Ambitious_Kate]

has to be

[Dressage_Strider]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8833315]
With only 11 posts, I think this is just a troll.

Velvetwhoiscurledinacornerafterreadingheadset[/QUOTE]

I just got on this yesterday and am trying it out. Am I doing something wrong? I searched for a question like this and only found stuff about people who were just starting to ask for softening

[Dramapony_misty]

[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8833335]
I just got on this yesterday and am trying it out. Am I doing something wrong? I searched for a question like this and only found stuff about people who were just starting to ask for softening[/QUOTE]

I think that is because what you are really looking for IS advice on softening (even if you don’t realize it yet). “Headset” is looked at as a false frame…the horse puts its head where it looks good, but it is fake and you can’t actually DO anything with it. Instead of worrying about the head and neck, worry about horse’s body from the withers and back to the hind quarters.

If you can get the horse to lift his back and step under himself, the rest of his frame (ie. Head and neck) will naturally fall into place because mechanically, it has to. Lateral work helps with this ALOT…Shoulder-fore, shoulder-in, shoulder-out, leg yield.

[Dramapony_misty]

[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8833323]
If I just ask more from the hq and for him to lift his back more, he is just going to loose it unless I block it with my hands. So when I close my hands if I have asked correctly it will result in a headset.[/QUOTE]

Don’t block! Accept the energy and recycle it back. Sort of like a spring. There are lot of good articles and videos about the energy cycle of dressage.
This is a good one: http://dressagetoday.com/article/build-stronger-bridge-26384

I think you have the right general ideas, but the terminology isn’t correct and thus the, ahem, critiques from this forum.

[Dressage_Strider]

My horse is already softened though - wouldn’t continuing to soften him just be working on the muscles I already have?

We have begun the lateral movements as well.

I said headset because I was specifically talking about the head - how heavy my hands should be. I wouldn’t dream of asking my horse for anything from the headfirst. He is one of those guys where if he is at all dropping his back, he will trip instantly and we wouldn’t get anywhere.

RedHorses’ comment is more so what I was expecting. I just wasn’t sure how much contact is too much. I’ve been teaching stretching into the bit for so long, shortening the reins a foot seemed weird and incorrect.

[SillyHorse]

If you could shorten your reins a foot, they were way too long to start with.

[Dressage_Strider]

[QUOTE=Dramapony_misty;8833364]
Don’t block! Accept the energy and recycle it back. Sort of like a spring. There are lot of good articles and videos about the energy cycle of dressage.
This is a good one: http://dressagetoday.com/article/build-stronger-bridge-26384

I think you have the right general ideas, but the terminology isn’t correct and thus the, ahem, critiques from this forum.[/QUOTE]

Thank you - yes I have read this article before and it is quite helpful.

I think I am just not using the right words!

[Dressage_Strider]

[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8833370]
If you could shorten your reins a foot, they were way too long to start with.[/QUOTE]

Is there a way to post a picture on here?

[SillyHorse]

You can post a link to a Facebook page or put the picture on a photo hosting website like Photobucket and post the link to that page.

[cnm161]

I think the training scale/pyramid picture does us a bit of a disservice with regards to our mental model of dressage. It’s not so much a checklist as a cycle, which repeats itself level after level after level after level…

So yes, you may have a soft and pleasant Training-level ride. What happens when you ask for more engagement? Money says the softness goes away and you have to rebuild. This pattern repeats every level (or every time you amp up the expectations). Introduce pirouette steps? Hello, tension. Then you build up to it and suddenly you’re not struggling anymore… until you ask for full pirouettes instead of halves.

[Foxtrot_s]

OP - Velvet is just being Velvet - take no notice.

You will find that here - just take the advice that is offered to help and ignore the rest.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

[QUOTE=cnm161;8833381]
I think the training scale/pyramid picture does us a bit of a disservice with regards to our mental model of dressage. It’s not so much a checklist as a cycle, which repeats itself level after level after level after level…

So yes, you may have a soft and pleasant Training-level ride. What happens when you ask for more engagement? Money says the softness goes away and you have to rebuild. This pattern repeats every level (or every time you amp up the expectations). Introduce pirouette steps? Hello, tension. Then you build up to it and suddenly you’re not struggling anymore… until you ask for full pirouettes instead of halves.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been here four years and 99% of the people are extremely kind and helpful.

I think this is a perfect question to ask and you’re getting helpful answers from some people. If you KNEW what to do, and why, you would be doing it.

I really like what CNM said above.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8833335]
I just got on this yesterday and am trying it out. Am I doing something wrong? I searched for a question like this and only found stuff about people who were just starting to ask for softening[/QUOTE]

Welcome.

To answer your question (and the real one in another post): The term “headset” is from Western World. It has no place in correct dressage world. That’s because of what you (and good western trainers know): The position of the head isn’t the end, rather, it’s (part of) the means to the end of asking the horse to lift his rib cage up between his shoulder blades and to push with his hind legs.

So the “headset” term is what is earning you all the flak from the dressage purists here.