[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8833372]
Is there a way to post a picture on here?[/QUOTE]
I recommend against that until folks show you a little more kindness here. One can open oneself up to a whole can of criticism that wasn’t wanted or expected.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208537586211417&set=a.1506994789098.70809.1061134369&type=3&theater
here is a link to a picture with us with a basic frame
[QUOTE=mvp;8833415]
I recommend against that until folks show you a little more kindness here. One can open oneself up to a whole can of criticism that wasn’t wanted or expected.[/QUOTE]
oh…well I saw this after posting one
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8833391]
OP - Velvet is just being Velvet - take no notice.
You will find that here - just take the advice that is offered to help and ignore the rest.[/QUOTE]
Having been out here a long time, there are certain terms that are inflammatory, and that’s one of them. And when it is used by new alters it is immediately viewed as suspicious. Too many people out here do like to troll.
With that said, having read the reply that you are not a troll, but rather a newbie, I would suggest addressing this with your instructor. Really, reading about it will not teach you the correct feel. Having a good coach on the ground is the only way to correctly figure out the feel, timing, etc.
OP - thinking about “softening” when you’re thinking about the mouth and contact is the right approach, because otherwise you are pretty well always talking about riding off of your hands to create a “head set” which, as others have pointed out, is backwards-thinking and backwards riding.
Heaviness in the hands is very often because a horse is on the forehand. You say your horse was going well (which I assume your trainer also thought because they were there working with you) - in this case, what redhorses said is also possible - it’s harder work and he was leaning into your hands because it’s tough for him (and any horse) to start to shift their weight back toward their hindquarters and push. This is where that “cycle of energy” comes in, and it should be about pushing him forward into the hand, and sending the energy back through to his back/hindquarters.
You want to help him learn to be soft as he shifts his weight and carries himself differently. “Softening” doesn’t mean returning to long/low work where he is comfortable working and therefore soft, it means working correctly so that he can carry himself well as you increase connection and build impulsion.
If your trainer was happy with how he was moving and you were working, and you continue to work through this, you should find that he starts to soften and lighten in the hand as you work in a more elevated “frame.”
[QUOTE=Velvet;8833426]
Having been out here a long time, there are certain terms that are inflammatory, and that’s one of them. And when it is used by new alters it is immediately viewed as suspicious. Too many people out here do like to troll.
With that said, having read the reply that you are not a troll, but rather a newbie, I would suggest addressing this with your instructor. Really, reading about it will not teach you the correct feel. Having a good coach on the ground is the only way to correctly figure out the feel, timing, etc.[/QUOTE]
I am trying out instructors and trying to find one that actually teaches about the entire frame - not just the head. That’s why I posted on here after she told me to shorten my reins a foot. I’ve never really had a true dressage instructor, and I don’t want to learn incorrectly. I’ve only been reading stuff for years, and trying to compare what instructors say against what I’ve read to see if I agree with how they teach
[QUOTE=Velvet;8833426]
Having been out here a long time, there are certain terms that are inflammatory, and that’s one of them. And when it is used by new alters it is immediately viewed as suspicious. Too many people out here do like to troll.
With that said, having read the reply that you are not a troll, but rather a newbie, I would suggest addressing this with your instructor. Really, reading about it will not teach you the correct feel. Having a good coach on the ground is the only way to correctly figure out the feel, timing, etc.[/QUOTE]
For some of us, we need to understand the physics behind something and we get that through reading, both books/articles, and helpful people here. People learn differently, and instructors/coaches/trainers teach differently.
Sometimes people find that someone else’s words will spark them to better understanding, and then all seems right with the world. I think that’s one of the big reasons this forum exists, right?
I’m all for gathering info and sorting through it and playing with it and seeing what works.
[QUOTE=RedHorses;8833307]
You should be able to tell when he’s leaning on you versus asking for a stronger contact. Yes, when the work gets harder and you start asking for him to shift more weight to his hindend he is likely to want a stronger contact at first. As long as you don’t just hold him up (which will encourage leaning) you can give him the extra contact as you work towards him carrying himself more. As he gets stronger, he will be happy with the lighter contact again.[/QUOTE]
This is good advice, nicely put, OP.
Not all schools of dressage produce more engagement, lift and collection this way.*** But it is a tried-and-true method for some people and kinds of horses. Knowing the logic will help you understand why a trainer would have you shorten your reins a lot, sacrifice lightness in your hand/accept more pounds of pressure temporarily. When your horse is stronger (and if you are a smart rider with some feel and timing), he will get light again, but now with his carcass in a more “uphill” orientation. FWIW, if you produced a horse that could used his hind end in a bridle, hackamore or halter, I think you do have the educated hands it takes to get this job done.
So, again, accept more pounds of pressure in your hand. And at this juncture, for a lot of horses and riders who are now using lots of leg and lots of core and some upper body strength to hold the package together, it can be tempting to let the horse get behind your leg. Or, more specifically, to let him get dull to it such that you are always driving into that hand that doesn’t let him go in the lower/longer/easier frame. Try hard to avoid letting the attentiveness to your leg slide. It will be a kicking PITA to fix later. And you will have to do that because, again, it ain’t about the position of the head and neck at all; it’s about the horse pushing hard with his hind end and using his core to hold his body up.
*** If you come from Western World, you are probably used to a training style that has lightness in your hand come early to a horse and remains a priority throughout his training, all the time. There are some schools of dressage that do this. But the one we are talking about here— the one that probably prompted your pro to have you shorten up on the reins and accept more pressure-- goes about getting to collection, hind end engagement and (eventually) back to lightness in the bridle a different way. “Which road do you want to take to Rome/collection and lightness” is a different, longer discussion. But it’s worth pointing out and explaining the differences so that you can know what’s going on behind the advice… at least as I interpret things.
Hope this helps!
Learn the art of the half-halt.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/art-half-halt
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2013/09/21/classical-training-defining-half-halt
http://dressagetoday.com/article/secrets-halt-25099
It is you BASIC building block for power and softness.
If your instructor has not taught you this, find another teacher.
[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8833417]
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208537586211417&set=a.1506994789098.70809.1061134369&type=3&theater
here is a link to a picture with us with a basic frame[/QUOTE]
OP, that’s a perfectly respectable picture.
I can see how your pro might have recognized your good basic and taken the opportunity to build on what you have. That effort to make progress, and to do so from a different approach, is most likely why she changed things up.
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;8833438]
For some of us, we need to understand the physics behind something and we get that through reading, both books/articles, and helpful people here. People learn differently, and instructors/coaches/trainers teach differently.
Sometimes people find that someone else’s words will spark them to better understanding, and then all seems right with the world. I think that’s one of the big reasons this forum exists, right?
I’m all for gathering info and sorting through it and playing with it and seeing what works.[/QUOTE]
You need both, and the best is to have both the books and the coach–and a horse that is correctly trained (lesson horse) and can teach the rider the feel.
Without at least the first two, you become Nick P. :lol: Just check out THAT thread!
So accept more pounds of pressure in your hand. And at this juncture, for a lot of horses and riders who are now using lots of leg and lots of core and some upper body strength to hold the package together, it can be tempting to let the horse get behind your leg. Or, more specifically, to let him get dull to it such that you are always driving into that hand that doesn’t let him go in the lower/longer/easier frame. Try hard to avoid letting the attentiveness to your leg slide. It will be a kicking PITA to fix later. And you will have to do that because, again, it ain’t about the position of the head and neck at all; it’s about the horse pushing hard with his hind end and using his core to hold his body up.
I’m not super familiar with “getting behind the leg” is that loosing impulsion? Dropping onto the forehand? A short way of saying falling apart?
[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8833464]
So accept more pounds of pressure in your hand. And at this juncture, for a lot of horses and riders who are now using lots of leg and lots of core and some upper body strength to hold the package together, it can be tempting to let the horse get behind your leg. Or, more specifically, to let him get dull to it such that you are always driving into that hand that doesn’t let him go in the lower/longer/easier frame. Try hard to avoid letting the attentiveness to your leg slide. It will be a kicking PITA to fix later. And you will have to do that because, again, it ain’t about the position of the head and neck at all; it’s about the horse pushing hard with his hind end and using his core to hold his body up.
I’m not super familiar with “getting behind the leg” is that loosing impulsion? Dropping onto the forehand? A short way of saying falling apart?[/QUOTE]
Not exactly. “Behind the leg” to me means the horse has lost responsiveness, and you then start riding with your “leg on” all the time. That can mean squeezing all the time (and stiffening your hip… so that you aren’t loose in your seat and comfortable for the swinging back you want). It can mean kicking all the time. It can mean you now want to use a whip (but not to correct, so much as to “add volume” to your ever-ignored leg).
Think of the degree of lightness you have taught this horse in your hand. There is an equivalent in your leg. You squeeze with your calf, you feel his body perk up a bit, saying “I heard that: I’m going” and his next step is bigger.
So when folks decide they are going to ride their horse “up into the bridle,” or drive him into those shorter reins and also accept more pressure in the hand (temporarily), it becomes a total body work out for the rider. You need a lot of core strength to have your hand (and really, your arm) be feeling and ready to soften, while you are asking for a bigger stride (usually the trot) with your leg and keeping your hips relaxed. With all of these requirements to get right, lots of riders back off the “driving” part of the equation a bit and let the horse motor along “good enough,” leaning on the bridle. You can get suckered into having a leaning horse who is dull to the leg.
So “ahead of your leg” means a couple of things. As a training issue, it means “a quick and ready response.” In a physical sense related to a horse reaching well under with his hind end, it means he’ll take longer, more powerful, “pushing” strides. And early in this process, you might have to accept a bigger trot. The idea here is that you have nothing unless you have “forward” and pushing from behind. So if you have to start with a big trot to get that, then you do because you won’t sacrifice that “forward” you need in order to have genuine hind end engagement. Slower, with hind end engagement maintained, and lighter in your hand, also with the hiney in gear, are things that come later in this philosophy.
You can see why you need a horse who is willing to go forward and doesn’t need constant begging or nagging with your leg is important.
So “losing impulsion” is what happens if you back off from your standard of hind end-engagement. “Falling apart,” I suppose would be what happens if you lengthen the reins when the horse was not pushing from behind all that well and you stopped holding him up in front while he was (effectively) pulling himself along with his front legs.
How much weight a rider feels in their hands is variable. A weak horse, or one that is learning something new may feel heavier for a while because it needs more support from the rider. As it grows stronger and more confident it will get lighter again. Whether the weight you feel is an appropriate amount can only be determined by looking at the horse’s whole body.
I think it’s easier to describe what it’s like when your horse is in front of your leg. There is contact, there is impulsion, and your horse reacts immediately when you apply your leg, not by getting heavy in your hand, but by maintaining the contact and responding with more energy.
You are currently looking for the right instructor? My first instinct is to say you haven’t found that instructor yet.
Your picture VERY much reminds me of ME on my old palomino (back in my teenage/thin years!) You look absolutely LOVELY for a breed show or open schooling show, and ok for training and maybe first level. However, a trainer who is trying to make you collect and ride in a more collected “frame” is missing teaching you some basics which will make it far easier for you to get there. To me, this is the hardest thing of being new at dressage - knowing if you’re being taught what you should, since you don’t know it yet!
In your picture you have open, breed show hunter type fingers. Softness/lightness in dressage doesn’t come from those fingers - as I’m told over and over, 7 years into my dressage journey. It’s a hard thing to get over! You also have really beautiful Equitation position… which is less effective when you want your horse to start folding its hind legs and lifting its withers. Your pelvis is tipped - the top of it is too far forward/tailbone is pointing toward your horse’s tail. It’s not a huge tilt, but enough that it’s going to more encourage your horse to hollow its back and not step under from behind. Eventually, this will be more your piaffe position - after the horse is already lifting its back and using itself well, momentary shifts in this direction will tell your horse to bend its hind legs even more.
There are intricacies of using the seat/core to help get your horse working from behind, but those basics need work before you start asking for more uphill work. You are clearly competent at this point, but you need an instructor who will teach you some of the basics to improve to help make progress easier. I suspect from your posts you don’t want a combative, forceful relationship with your horse - and not improving your position will make it hard to have the natural progression rather than the more forceful feel you have right now.
As for behind the leg - a horse should willingly and happily move forward. I like for my horses to feel as if they’re constantly asking if I want them to go faster/have an upward transition. I shouldn’t have to kick or remind them to keep moving - they should be self propelled. A horse in front of the leg whose rider is in the correct position will start to move uphill more naturally and easily. 
I suspect based on your picture and posts your horse probably actually is in front of your leg - goes when you say go, and keeps going.
OP, your picture shows a nice beginning - you should be proud of that! Horse looks comfortable in the contact, your alignment is fairly good (your leg is a bit far back if I had to nitpick, and your heel up and into his side - guessing this pic is when you are doing a slight kick?). Of course, this is a moment in time, so a video would be even more helpful - but be aware, when post video or pictures, you will get all kinds of “advice”, not all of it will be helpful or friendly.
So - I’m assuming you and your horse are fairly new to dressage. And based on that assumption, I would say this pic shows you on the right track. At this point, your horse needs to start to develop a more level balance (and eventually an uphill balance), and you need to help him to do that. And that sounds SO easy, and it is SO HARD.
I would agree you need to shorten up your reins a bit - but your horse is going to struggle with that. AND you need to have more coming from behind - right now, he looks pleasant, but not really tracking up, not really coming from behind. You have the relaxation and some acceptance of contact - that is a really good start! So on to the next step in the never ending ladder of dressage.
The whole goal of throughness (and I think this is where you are going with your question) is to have the power from behind come THROUGH to your hand - the horse’s engine creates power, which comes up the back, lifts the front end (withers, shoulders, neck, head), then to the mouth and back into your hands - it is an ongoing cycle of power, as the power then goes back to the hind end. It takes YEARS to achieve this, there are no real short cuts. If your reins are too long, the power fizzles out. If you restrict the head and/or neck, the power gets stuck. So it is a fine balance.
Your horse will need a lot of “short stints” of “more” (more power, more uphill), along with the let down to “less” - it is kind of like preparing for any sport - you build up fitness slowly with many short sets. And as a rider, you will also have to develop more power (fitness) of your own to help your horse.
So, it sounds like you are on the right track - and I would agree, you need a shorter rein. If your trainer is also asking for more “forward energy”, then I really agree, that seems to be where you need to go right now. If they are just asking you to shorten your reins, I’d say no, this is not the correct path. BTW, more forward energy doesn’t necessarily mean “faster”, so much as “more”. Longer stride, more “umph” from the engine behind.
ETA - as to how “much” is in your hands, that all depends. A lot of people want “lightness”, but that isn’t always dressage reality - we are dealing with a sport of power, which means there is going to be some weight in your hands. I have found, every time I kick it up for more, there is more weight for a while, as the horse struggles with the new balance, then it gets better. Some horses are naturally heavier in the contact then others, so it is really hard to say “how much”. That is where you really need someone to help you on the ground, watching what is going on. But - if your horse is supple, you will probably feel a lighter feeling, so part of the climb up that dressage ladder is going to be suppleness. Does the horse flex, can you move parts of the horse’s body around easily? And one easy place to start. From a halt - how much rein do you need to flip the nuchal ligament - which is that big, strong ligament that goes over the top of the horse’s neck - it shouldn’t take MUCH to move that ligament from one side to the other… Try it as an initial little visual test.
Very good first post here!
[QUOTE=netg;8833490]
You are currently looking for the right instructor? My first instinct is to say you haven’t found that instructor yet.
Your picture VERY much reminds me of ME on my old palomino (back in my teenage/thin years!) You look absolutely LOVELY for a breed show or open schooling show, and ok for training and maybe first level. However, a trainer who is trying to make you collect and ride in a more collected “frame” is missing teaching you some basics which will make it far easier for you to get there. To me, this is the hardest thing of being new at dressage - knowing if you’re being taught what you should, since you don’t know it yet!
In your picture you have open, breed show hunter type fingers. Softness/lightness in dressage doesn’t come from those fingers - as I’m told over and over, 7 years into my dressage journey. It’s a hard thing to get over! You also have really beautiful Equitation position… which is less effective when you want your horse to start folding its hind legs and lifting its withers. Your pelvis is tipped - the top of it is too far forward/tailbone is pointing toward your horse’s tail. It’s not a huge tilt, but enough that it’s going to more encourage your horse to hollow its back and not step under from behind. Eventually, this will be more your piaffe position - after the horse is already lifting its back and using itself well, momentary shifts in this direction will tell your horse to bend its hind legs even more.
There are intricacies of using the seat/core to help get your horse working from behind, but those basics need work before you start asking for more uphill work. You are clearly competent at this point, but you need an instructor who will teach you some of the basics to improve to help make progress easier. I suspect from your posts you don’t want a combative, forceful relationship with your horse - and not improving your position will make it hard to have the natural progression rather than the more forceful feel you have right now.
As for behind the leg - a horse should willingly and happily move forward. I like for my horses to feel as if they’re constantly asking if I want them to go faster/have an upward transition. I shouldn’t have to kick or remind them to keep moving - they should be self propelled. A horse in front of the leg whose rider is in the correct position will start to move uphill more naturally and easily. I suspect based on your picture and posts your horse probably actually is in front of your leg - goes when you say go, and keeps going.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, this all makes sense to me, too. OP, check out the bolded bit. Don’t assume your horse is behind your leg, just because he’s heavy in the hand or we had a long, digression of a discussion about it. Evaluate the horse you have (with educated help). You don’t need a horse to be running frantically to get the job done. And you really don’t want his mind to be frantic. That big, “pushing” trot you might have to start with will make your horse work physically hard, but it isn’t mentally tough (unless he feels sorry for himself).
But the thing about “ahead of your leg” as responsiveness: Think more about how you produced lightness in the bridle, and especially in the hackamore. I’ll bet you took with your hands until you felt him give and then you really gave. So you taught the horse to respond to a signal promptly. That same timing and feel with your leg is a great thing. Most of us aren’t so dextrous and feeling with our leg, so horses aren’t always so light (until you ride one made up by a pro). And it can be hard to be consistent about insisting on that quick response. Just as you’d never accept a horse that gave to the bridle sometimes but whose head you had to drag around at other times, we shouldn’t accept a horse who makes us work harder to get him to go.
Allrightythen. Off my lectern for now. COTH is pretty good for technical help if you have a clue and a trainer and a thick skin. People dig trying to help others and explaining stuff; for me it helps me make sure I’m clear on the way I ride a horse. If I can’t explain my system to you, there’s no way I can make it clear to a horse and that’s not fair. Reading others’ posts and adding ideas that make sense to me, given my previous education has allowed me to learn a lot here.
[QUOTE=Velvet;8833459]
You need both, and the best is to have both the books and the coach–and a horse that is correctly trained (lesson horse) and can teach the rider the feel.
Without at least the first two, you become Nick P. :lol: Just check out THAT thread![/QUOTE]
You don’t NEED both. It would be nice. People learn differently. Yes, it would be ideal to have both.
I’ve learned more about what to do and what not to do on my own horse, who isn’t a lesson horse, in the last 9 months than I did in more than 3 years in full training.
(and my scores at recognized shows clearly reflect this)
No danger of ever being NP, no worries.
ETA: Everyone learns differently. I have visual recall…so when I’m struggling, I can remember something I read in a book or saw in a video way before I can remember what someone told me.
I didn’t say you couldn’t learn on your own horse, but that you can’t really learn it correctly from books. Yes, they are a good way for many people to gain clarity in what is being taught, but you really need someone on the ground to also help make sure it really is correct. That was my point. And the NP point! :lol:
