How much contact needed for headset

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8833538]
I didn’t say you couldn’t learn on your own horse, but that you can’t really learn it correctly from books. Yes, they are a good way for many people to gain clarity in what is being taught, but you really need someone on the ground to also help make sure it really is correct. That was my point. And the NP point! :lol:[/QUOTE]

We can find common ground there - eyes on the ground to make sure it is correct.

It’s my own personal bias as well that comes from my own experience learning this sport :).

And the one on the ground MUST KNOW what is correct. That, I think, is the harder thing for we amateurs to decipher.

[Velvet]

Agreed. SO many people who think they know, but really have no clue. I think that’s part of why headsets were so popular in the past (and still happen today). :yes:

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8833555]
Agreed. SO many people who think they know, but really have no clue. I think that’s part of why headsets were so popular in the past (and still happen today). :yes:[/QUOTE]

Probably true!

[netg]

Regarding weight in the hand, I loved what Heather Blitz told me in a clinic. I had my pelvis tipped the same way (it is my unending fight to have a neutral pelvis because my back is naturally hollow - so I have to revisit this several times a year, as once I stop thinking about it it will creep back to tilted), and she got me straight and aligned properly. We then discussed increasing impulsion and uphill balance from that point through the use of my core. The core use was basically pushing my lower belly out (forward) and lower back backward to flat instead of an arch at the same time. This naturally aligned my legs, kept me from pressing on the stirrups, and encouraged my horse to carry herself well. Because it was asking more of her, it also made her stronger in the contact. Heather gave me the rule - your horse should not be heavier in your hand than your core is working. If it is, you’re working front to back, if it is lighter in your hand than your core strength, you are getting that weight from the hind legs.

It’s an oversimplification of two days of riding, but I think gives you an idea of what is right to help think about.

[MysticOakRanch]

@netg;8833569

Heather gave me the rule - your horse should not be heavier in your hand than your core is working. If it is, you’re working front to back, if it is lighter in your hand than your core strength, you are getting that weight from the hind legs.

Wow, that is a great rule of thumb! I love these kind of tidbits!

[Dressage_Strider]

Netg and MysticOak Ranch - thank you so much. The way you guys describe things paints a pretty picture in my head and I feel like I am starting to understand!

I am in Lexington KY - supposed to be Horse Capital of the World - but (so far) I have found severely lacking in dressage instructors, much less dressage riding programs. I have only been able to get lessons with eventing trainers, which is all good and well, but I just have this prejudiced feeling that dressage is more about appearances and being able to get through the the test for the rest of eventing, then actually wanting to create building blocks and be able to continue improving.

Any dressage instructors I can find don’t have a horse for me to ride and be able to feel the movement on. And with green teaching green, it’s hard to develop muscle memory even with someone on the ground.

As far as my seat in the saddle - it’s something I am ever working with, I used to tuck more, but then I kept reading about how tucking the butt too much is also bad - I can’t seem to get it just right

the heavier in the core than the hand portion I can definitely get on board with. That’s one reason lengthening has been so hard for us. I hurt! and hold my breath apparently

So far I really love this forum. I have learned so much reading others posts, and it’s encouraging and empowering to get my questions answered!

[merrygoround]

Be assured in Lexington there are good dressage instructors. Jim Kofford is out there, and another young lady whose name escapes me,(captured the name, Reese Koffler), is permanently summer based there. Check out the USDF.

Your horse in your FB shot is trundling along on his forehand, your posture looks good, but your lower leg appears to need some help.

It has been suggested that you need to learn the half halt, and that is correct. the HH is a good part of riding a horse back to front, and a good instructor, with a well trained horse, can pop you on the longe and help you find the feel.

[FEIwannabe]

OP, you are getting some excellent advice here, Mvp’s advice is also right on target I think.

It was mentioned once in this thread, but I think it’s very important and bears repeating. Your half-halts are critical in this process of achieving higher degree of collection and self carriage.

As for 12" shorter in the reins, that would be a bit much to start methinks. But I agree shorter and more forward to get him stepping under more, and then all the advice you have gotten here with half-halts.
I found that with my horse, doing shorter stints of this more forward helped my horse. And also helped me from falling into the trap of holding him up.
So say on a 20m circle, ask for more forward over the centerline for a few strides at first. The forward and back within the gait will also help in strengthening his hind end. Then you can increase the demand as it gets easier for him to hold himself up, starts to step under himself, lift his back, shifts his weight back. Then over time you can shorten the reins a bit more and start the process all over again.

[Dressage_Strider]

Yes, Lots and lots of good advice here. I rode looking for more impulsion yesterday and really felt the “rubber band” and “spring” that has been mentioned earlier.

Thank you All!

[BatCoach]

[QUOTE=cnm161;8833381]
I think the training scale/pyramid picture does us a bit of a disservice with regards to our mental model of dressage. It’s not so much a checklist as a cycle, which repeats itself level after level after level after level…

So yes, you may have a soft and pleasant Training-level ride. What happens when you ask for more engagement? Money says the softness goes away and you have to rebuild. This pattern repeats every level (or every time you amp up the expectations). Introduce pirouette steps? Hello, tension. Then you build up to it and suddenly you’re not struggling anymore… until you ask for full pirouettes instead of halves.[/QUOTE]

^^^ this! It took me a little while to understand that sometimes tension can be a good thing when its part of this rebuilding cycle.

I was in a similar position as OP - my horse was happy toot-tooting around at TL, but when asked to really carry himself more I got resistance. My advice is that providing that your horse is healthy, sound and capable of the work you are asking, be persistent and patient but ask for more engagement in short increments. He doesn’t know why he is being asked to do something more, and it is making his body feel different, give him some time to figure it out.

short answer is yes, when asking for more engagement, your horse will probably feel heavier in your hands. Remember to give with the reins occasionally (ubersctrichen) and don’t be afraid to wiggle your fingers to prevent him from clamping down with his jaw. Half halts are your friend!

[tbchick84]

I looked at the pic you posted and instantly thought of an exercise to feel a different level of balance from your horse. You have a nice connection to the bit. It’s time to put it to good use. Here’s the exercise.

Trot 8 to 10 strides.

Come to halt

Without throwing away outside rein connection, make a 1/4 turn (90 degree) by asking your horse to turn on his forehand (shoulders). You will need to keep that outside rein and leg, but you can give away some inside rein if you need.

Resume trot 8 to 10 strides, come to halt

Lather, rinse, repeat. You’re riding squares. Change direction from time to time to keep your horse guessing. You’ll find a little slack in the reins each time you turn as your horse begins to engage his hind end. Take up the slack but make sure your elbows and shoulders are soft and following. Keep your fingers closed around the reins. The idea is to get you feeling the connection more in your entire torso over just your hands.

Once your horse is bored with the halt/turn, change it to a walking turn, and finally a trotting turn. When you get to trot, you will need to make it a larger more shallow turn until your horse has better balance, but just play with it.

Finally try it on a circle. Think of it as an octagon instead of a circle and make the mini turns on the forehand each point of the octagon. Your horse should respond my reaching more into the bridle as he engages his hind end. Keep thinking about your elbows/shoulders. Make sure there is not tension. If this exercise is successful, you will probably end up with your reins about 6 to 8 inches shorter than when you started.

Have fun with it!

[CFFarm]

I find riders new to dressage confuse “connection” with “head set”. They want to be kind and not be hauling of the horse’s mouth but want that round, connected frame.
That’s why the reins are too long. It’s the riders (especially hunter riders) trying to be “kind”.The horse has to be “on the bit” I prefer “on the aids” before any real work can progress more than a plodding around.

Jane Savoie has some good articles and You Tube videos that may be of help to you. JMHO

[Dressage_Strider]

@tbchick84;8835785

You’re riding squares. Change direction from time to time to keep your horse guessing. You’ll find a little slack in the reins each time you turn as your horse begins to engage his hind end. Take up the slack but make sure your elbows and shoulders are soft and following. Keep your fingers closed around the reins. The idea is to get you feeling the connection more in your entire torso over just your hands.

Once your horse is bored with the halt/turn, change it to a walking turn, and finally a trotting turn. When you get to trot, you will need to make it a larger more shallow turn until your horse has better balance, but just play with it.

Finally try it on a circle. Think of it as an octagon instead of a circle and make the mini turns on the forehand each point of the octagon. Your horse should respond my reaching more into the bridle as he engages his hind end. Keep thinking about your elbows/shoulders. Make sure there is not tension. If this exercise is successful, you will probably end up with your reins about 6 to 8 inches shorter than when you started.

Turn ON the forehand?

I’ve been working a lot with transitions, sometimes they’re great, othertimes not so much. I really like the note of “The idea is to get you feeling the connection more in your entire torso over just your hands.” that is where I feel the tension before. I guess it makes sense that the more the horse engages the harder it will be for both him AND me. Makes me feel better about the additional contact

[Dressage_Strider]

[QUOTE=CFFarm;8836265]
I find riders new to dressage confuse “connection” with “head set”. They want to be kind and not be hauling of the horse’s mouth but want that round, connected frame.
That’s why the reins are too long. It’s the riders (especially hunter riders) trying to be “kind”.The horse has to be “on the bit” I prefer “on the aids” before any real work can progress more than a plodding around.

Jane Savoie has some good articles and You Tube videos that may be of help to you. JMHO[/QUOTE]

I think this makes a lot of sense. I just don’t want to create a hardened mouth. I’m beginning to feel a difference using some of these exercises though

[Dressage_Strider]

I’ve been riding asking for more “on the aids” the past couple of days - and it’s funny - it really is like starting over. He is so weak! Asks to stretch all the time. I guess that shows it’s working though?

[SillyHorse]

[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8836314]
Turn ON the forehand?[/QUOTE]
This is a very basic and important movement, and not just in dressage. There are many videos showing what it is and how it is done.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=turn+on+the+forehand

[Dressage_Strider]

I know what turn on the forehand is, I was just expecting turn on the haunches if I was trying to get the horse off the forehand

[Cat_Tap]

I like to teach the horse the turn on the forehand only to show him that leg pressure can also mean move sideways not always forward. Once they understand that I only use it occasionally as a reminder. I prefer to do quarter turn on the haunches when riding squares. It requires more engagement behind.

I found switching to dressage from hunterland quite frustrating in the beginning. It was a long journey as the horse and I were both new at it.

[Cat_Tap]

OP I hadn’t seen your last post as i am very slow on the computer but I agree with your statement.

[Dressage_Strider]

yeah that’s more so what I was thinking.

I include lateral movements like turns on the forehand and haunches as well as sidepass and leg yields in my warm ups.

Sillyhorse - I have done exercises like Shoulder fore or haunches in on squares/circles. I was picturing something like that based off of your reasoning for the exercise.