I cannot see a TWH excelling. I just can’t. Flat walking and a running walk both are ‘power walking’ - getting that back end deep up under the horse and pushing, reaching and pulling with the front end.
Compare that to the various positions you can ask a horse to trot in, forget about it. You can let 'em get strung out and run that nose down and out and kinda shake it out, then pull them back together, lift that back, etc…plus you can power up and down hills- good luck gaiting down hill at speed. They can’t: they fall apart into a pace going downhill . And who wants to ride a pace??
goesthedistance-- Thank you for your information. I will admit in my ignorance
that I was wrong. Never having ridden endurance or attended a ride to watch I was going off of information I have read about over a lot of years. I never thought it may have been untrue? I have had many horses and not one was arab, but one horse had the ability to go for miles at a steady trot and never seemed to tire. I always thought he could have done it, but I guess not.
I disagree that other breeds cant “excel” in endurance. (“Excel” being defined as regularly Top Ten at 50+ miles.) I personally know people in my region who ride/rode a mustang, saddlebreds and TWH and consistentlyTop Ten, and have won and BC’ed their share of rides, over the course of many years.
I’ve come across a fair amount of information that was written years ago that is untrue, and/or highly questionable. (One book that comes to immediate mind said you should “run” your 50 mile horse “empty”. IE: on an empty stomach. ) Some stupid, bad advice in light of what we know now.
Years back when there were more range horses and crossbreds in the sport it was possible for a non-arab to both race and excel…but those days are long gone. AERC’s rules have tightened over the years, including this year as well, making it more difficult for “other” breeds to compete (read this as race for the top 5) if they don’t have the genetic predisposition towards a low pulse and fast recovery - a predisposition that the Arabian horse tends to offer.
If you have an “other” breed, and go into the sport for the fun, you will have a blast. You might even find yourself in the top ten once or twice if you ride smart and have a competitively conditioned horse.
If you intend to be competitive to be consistantly in the top 5 in all your rides - which is what I envision when I hear the word “excel” because top 10 isn’t too difficult to accomplish- you need to be riding the breed proven to give you a better than average chance of doing the job.
I’m not disparaging Arabians by any means, but there is such a thing as tunnel vision among passionate fans of any breed. -Have to love it when people say Arabs CAN’T ______ jump, trot, hunt, collect for dressage, work cattle, etc. Conveniently overlooking those who have done it!
There are some rather interesting TWH out riding in Montana, Idaho, etc., too.
If the horse pulses down, cools out in a timely manner, makes the time and has the mind, stamina and soundness…?
And our point is, it is rare to find a horse that does all of this as well as an Arab. Period.
Again, I must re-state my opinion that many horses of many breeds can “do” endurance, just like they could “do” dressage. But they are more likely to “stall out” if you aim them towards the higher level of the sport. Afew exceptions never prove the rule, so just because there were 2 Morgans (just picking a breed at random – nobody freak out) who top 10’ed afew times does make the breed a “natural” at the sport.
BTW, as a breeder of one of those “alternate” breeds (the Akhal Teke), I will tell you that a Teke has not been prominent in this sport since being brought to America.
I think the top performing Teke has only about 2000 lifetime miles, which is not bad, but consider a friend of mine, who rode her Arab gelding 2150 miles in ONE YEAR. She also won the Big Horn on him that year – her 1st 100 miler.
So again, the records speak for themselves – the chances of getting a mount that can WIN or BC on a regular basis that is not an Arab or Arab x is very slight. Again, this is NOT opinion – this so-called “breed-bias” is statistically proven via the AERC stats.
That being said, very few riders are in it to win or TT. For instance, my friend mentioned above wins on occasion, but mainly she rides for miles and completion – does TONS of the XP rides.
That is the beauty of the sport of endurance – there are so many levels & goals one can set for one’s self and the horse and I absolutely believe you should try the sport with the horse you have first. Then, depending on where you decide to go with it, see if your mount is suitable for YOUR goals.
Well, if you run 50 Fords and 3 Chevys and the top awards are 20 to Fords and 2 to Chevy, I might just be fool enough to look at the Chevys because I like the success ratio; especially if the Chevys are driven by less accomplished drivers or 1st year rookies.
On that note, perhaps we should be importing our competition endurance horses from Dubai; gosh, they’ve had success?
-Which I completely disagree with, if the WEG course had been run on the Western States Trail route or any reasonably tough elevations terrain ride in the east, the finishers would have been quite different, I feel.
Our horses and riders don’t usually train for ‘flatlander speed marathons’.
Kind of reminds me of the Sporthorse forum European breds vs. American breds of the same registry parentage discussions…
Upset beating Man O’ War was a fluke: “a stroke of luck”; consistent winning by a good horse -not so much.
Surely you are not suggesting that people who buy relatives of Endurance Arabians as prospects are being foolish?
If a person prefers to try another breed and picks a horse of similar bloodlines to a proven performer in their chosen discipline why are they acting on a fluke?
Heaven knows success in any endeavor takes far more hard and intelligent work than luck!
[QUOTE=katarine;5423613]
I cannot see a TWH excelling. I just can’t. Flat walking and a running walk both are ‘power walking’ - getting that back end deep up under the horse and pushing, reaching and pulling with the front end.
Compare that to the various positions you can ask a horse to trot in, forget about it. You can let 'em get strung out and run that nose down and out and kinda shake it out, then pull them back together, lift that back, etc…plus you can power up and down hills- good luck gaiting down hill at speed. They can’t: they fall apart into a pace going downhill . And who wants to ride a pace??[/QUOTE]
Clears throat Well, actually I do I ride a standardbred in endurance and he trots, paces and racks. So, it allows us to “mix it up” and change muscle groups. He trots up to 13 mph and paces over that. He can also rack between 7 and 9mph if I want to use that gait.
Also, I have singlefooters and rockies. They can fly down hill and never pace. My arabian friends can’t keep up anytime I’m going down hill. Even my standardbred’s walk is around 5.5 mph.
I have a friend that has completed a 100 and won with BC on his TWH mare, so there are gaited horses out there that are competitive. I agree that not all are suitable but if you get a good, well rounded, athletic gaited horse, they can do very well. I’ve rode it and seen it.
There doesn’t seem to be a lot of talk on this thread about a horse’s metabolic capabilities or ability to cool out efficiently, natural low resting heart rate, etc…
In my region there is a woman who competes only LDs and CTRs on her purebred Morgans. I’ve done some conditioning rides with her and she says that while the Morgans can “do the distance” they just aren’t efficient at cooling, their resting HRs are naturally higher, and it’s not effortless for them. She thinks it would be cruel to make them do 50s so she just does what her horses are comfortable doing.
When her and I rode together, my horse could go in a nice easy working trot for 10 miles and not bat an eye over it. (And not even be in particularly great “condition.”) Her horses would be foamed up, covered in lather, heart rate in the 120s and asking for a break after 3 miles. And she conditioned these horses a LOT. She’s a good rider, not heavy. Her horses are solid muscle, but SHE says this happens because they are so thick bodied. They don’t have the deep sprung ribs with the lung capacity and the natural born metabolic “gift” that the Arabs do.
A perfect example I’ve seen of this was my stallion. I took him to a friend’s house so we could go riding. I threw him out in her round pen (it’s an x-big one with sand footing), and we were busy doing other things. That horse cantered for an hour solid. Cantered. Around and around. He was NOT conditioned at all. I was just starting to get him broke out and on the trail. That sucker never got tired. An hour of cantering in deep sand didn’t even wear the edge off him. Just a tiny bit of sweat. Don’t know his heart rate but he wasn’t puffing and huffing or anything. It seems like many Arabs just have that “gift” for lack of a better term. The endurance and stamina is sooooo effortless for them.
Another example - a lady I trim for raises and trains only Arabs. She has at least 10-12 of them at any given time. Last year she’d “pick a horse” to take out on a trail ride with us. We’d do 12-16 or so miles of mostly trot and canter. Her horses were primarily dressage, ring horses with no trail experience at ALL. Whatever her “horse of the day” was would get out there on that trail and trot their little heart out and never suffer a minute for it. No conditioning to really speak of. Just good solid Arabs with good brains and breeding.
Now people who own QHs, Morgans, etc. that we ride with could not take an arena horse out and trot them for 16 miles without lots of prior conditioning. They’d probably drop over dead.
So while Morgans (just using this as an example) are usually strong, stout horses with nice feet, good conformation, and general “usability” many of them probably don’t have that metabolic gift that most Arabs do.
And I think an Arab’s ability to EXCEL in endurance riding (or racing if you prefer) is much more than just metabolic ability and talent. The horse has to eat and drink well, take care of themselves, have sound structure that stays sound, have a rider that manages them properly.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5436549]
There doesn’t seem to be a lot of talk on this thread about a horse’s metabolic capabilities or ability to cool out efficiently, natural low resting heart rate, etc…
In my region there is a woman who competes only LDs and CTRs on her purebred Morgans. I’ve done some conditioning rides with her and she says that while the Morgans can “do the distance” they just aren’t efficient at cooling, their resting HRs are naturally higher, and it’s not effortless for them. She thinks it would be cruel to make them do 50s so she just does what her horses are comfortable doing.
When her and I rode together, my horse could go in a nice easy working trot for 10 miles and not bat an eye over it. (And not even be in particularly great “condition.”) Her horses would be foamed up, covered in lather, heart rate in the 120s and asking for a break after 3 miles. And she conditioned these horses a LOT. She’s a good rider, not heavy. Her horses are solid muscle, but SHE says this happens because they are so thick bodied. They don’t have the deep sprung ribs with the lung capacity and the natural born metabolic “gift” that the Arabs do.
A perfect example I’ve seen of this was my stallion. I took him to a friend’s house so we could go riding. I threw him out in her round pen (it’s an x-big one with sand footing), and we were busy doing other things. That horse cantered for an hour solid. Cantered. Around and around. He was NOT conditioned at all. I was just starting to get him broke out and on the trail. That sucker never got tired. An hour of cantering in deep sand didn’t even wear the edge off him. Just a tiny bit of sweat. Don’t know his heart rate but he wasn’t puffing and huffing or anything. It seems like many Arabs just have that “gift” for lack of a better term. The endurance and stamina is sooooo effortless for them.
Another example - a lady I trim for raises and trains only Arabs. She has at least 10-12 of them at any given time. Last year she’d “pick a horse” to take out on a trail ride with us. We’d do 12-16 or so miles of mostly trot and canter. Her horses were primarily dressage, ring horses with no trail experience at ALL. Whatever her “horse of the day” was would get out there on that trail and trot their little heart out and never suffer a minute for it. No conditioning to really speak of. Just good solid Arabs with good brains and breeding.
Now people who own QHs, Morgans, etc. that we ride with could not take an arena horse out and trot them for 16 miles without lots of prior conditioning. They’d probably drop over dead.
So while Morgans (just using this as an example) are usually strong, stout horses with nice feet, good conformation, and general “usability” many of them probably don’t have that metabolic gift that most Arabs do.
And I think an Arab’s ability to EXCEL in endurance riding (or racing if you prefer) is much more than just metabolic ability and talent. The horse has to eat and drink well, take care of themselves, have sound structure that stays sound, have a rider that manages them properly.[/QUOTE]
While I’m not going to disagree that Arabs are absolutely dominating in endurance-
These Morgans you are talking about are not at all typical of any fit Morgan I’ve ever seen.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5436549]
There doesn’t seem to be a lot of talk on this thread about a horse’s metabolic capabilities or ability to cool out efficiently, natural low resting heart rate, etc…
In my region there is a woman who competes only LDs and CTRs on her purebred Morgans. I’ve done some conditioning rides with her and she says that while the Morgans can “do the distance” they just aren’t efficient at cooling, their resting HRs are naturally higher, and it’s not effortless for them. She thinks it would be cruel to make them do 50s so she just does what her horses are comfortable doing.
When her and I rode together, my horse could go in a nice easy working trot for 10 miles and not bat an eye over it. (And not even be in particularly great “condition.”) Her horses would be foamed up, covered in lather, heart rate in the 120s and asking for a break after 3 miles. And she conditioned these horses a LOT. She’s a good rider, not heavy. Her horses are solid muscle, but SHE says this happens because they are so thick bodied. They don’t have the deep sprung ribs with the lung capacity and the natural born metabolic “gift” that the Arabs do.
A perfect example I’ve seen of this was my stallion. I took him to a friend’s house so we could go riding. I threw him out in her round pen (it’s an x-big one with sand footing), and we were busy doing other things. That horse cantered for an hour solid. Cantered. Around and around. He was NOT conditioned at all. I was just starting to get him broke out and on the trail. That sucker never got tired. An hour of cantering in deep sand didn’t even wear the edge off him. Just a tiny bit of sweat. Don’t know his heart rate but he wasn’t puffing and huffing or anything. It seems like many Arabs just have that “gift” for lack of a better term. The endurance and stamina is sooooo effortless for them.
Another example - a lady I trim for raises and trains only Arabs. She has at least 10-12 of them at any given time. Last year she’d “pick a horse” to take out on a trail ride with us. We’d do 12-16 or so miles of mostly trot and canter. Her horses were primarily dressage, ring horses with no trail experience at ALL. Whatever her “horse of the day” was would get out there on that trail and trot their little heart out and never suffer a minute for it. No conditioning to really speak of. Just good solid Arabs with good brains and breeding.
Now people who own QHs, Morgans, etc. that we ride with could not take an arena horse out and trot them for 16 miles without lots of prior conditioning. They’d probably drop over dead.
So while Morgans (just using this as an example) are usually strong, stout horses with nice feet, good conformation, and general “usability” many of them probably don’t have that metabolic gift that most Arabs do.
And I think an Arab’s ability to EXCEL in endurance riding (or racing if you prefer) is much more than just metabolic ability and talent. The horse has to eat and drink well, take care of themselves, have sound structure that stays sound, have a rider that manages them properly.[/QUOTE]
This entire post is a pile of hooey.
First, Arabians don’t have any kind of special “gift” that allows them to excel at Endurance. The top endurance horses are the result of some selective breeding that takes advantage of the horse’s build and metabolism, then they are conditioned to do the distance and the time. As a breed they are the preferred horse for Endurance, there is no doubt, but if you want to consider them “gifted” because of that, well then, let’s just label every breed as gifted because they all have their niches.
As far as this astounding statement:
Now people who own QHs, Morgans, etc. that we ride with could not take an arena horse out and trot them for 16 miles without lots of prior conditioning. They’d probably drop over dead.
Who in their right mind takes ANY horse that has not had proper conditioning out for a 16 mile trot? Oh, wait… maybe Auventera does. She sure seems to insinuate it’s not a bad idea, anyway. She didn’t seem to have any problems allowing “her” unconditioned stallion to canter around a sand footing (how deep?) round pen for an hour solid. I do believe I would have been a tad concerned about legs, but that’s just me.
I’m not going to get into any argument about why one breed excels over others - it’s pointless. It’s like trying to argue about why a Thoroughbred excels at racing distances over 3/4 of a mile or why a Belgian excels at pulling contests. It’s not that any of them have any kind of GIFT - it’s because man has bred them to be exactly what they are.
Also, a Morgan that does not have “deep sprung ribs” is not a correct Morgan. It’s in the standard, if I recall correctly.
I’m not terribly interested in your opinion of my post or my horses. But thanks for the attack. Yet again. You just nevvvah get sick of it do you? LMAO.
In any case, the POINT if you care - is that typically certain breeds excel at certain disciplines. They are SELECTIVELY BRED for it. Pretty common sense, or so I thought. Maybe not in your world though. So my term “gift” was a simple way of saying the horses have “the stuff” it takes for endurance and stamina.
There are certainly individuals of other breeds that excel in endurance. They have the right genetics, conformation, temperament, whatever. But as a whole Arabians dominate and it has more to do with just being able to “do the miles.” What matters is WHY they are able to do the miles. Efficient cooling, good lung capacity, propensity toward quick recovery and cool down, and so forth.
Arabs don’t dominate the jumper ring and Clydesdales don’t dominate the polo field. Every breed has been selectively created for a specific purpose. Your average chihuahua isn’t going to retrieve ducks and your average st. bernard won’t excel at lure coursing.
As I said before - common sense people. Common sense.
I’ve been around few of them so I wouldn’t know. Her horses are bundles of muscles, very fit looking and extremely stout and solid. She rides them a lot. Thick necks, huge butts. In the OWNER’S own words - the horses just aren’t efficient at cooling and recovery.
Auventera, you are the one who said “the gift, for lack of a better term”. How about we simply call it what it is - conformation and temperament. Sound much more “common sense” than a my-precious-pony-fantasy-world term like “gift”.
The primary “gifts” being that they’re smaller, thin-skinned and lighter-muscled, which helps them stay cooler during exertion and cool down more quickly afterward, plus a greater proportion of slow-twitch muscle fibers (as compared to TBs and QHs, not sure of Morgans), which leads to less fatigue and a reduction in the end products of metabolism.
Yes, our breed is gifted.
Her horses were primarily dressage, ring horses with no trail experience at ALL. Whatever her “horse of the day” was would get out there on that trail and trot their little heart out and never suffer a minute for it. No conditioning to really speak of. Just good solid Arabs with good brains and breeding.
I don’t know what this lady does for training her dressage horses, but I can tell you that when my Arabian is being ridden 5-6 times a week in training for dressage, he is indeed being conditioned. One hour of ring work means we’re both working hard.
And I’m sure you’re aware of this, but several of the more serious endurance competitors I know take regular dressage instruction to improve their own riding and their horse’s musculature. They find it is a big benefit for their horses to be using themselves better when they do the longer races.
So it doesn’t really surprise me that a dressage-trained Arabian can keep up with trail-conditioned horses. Not at all.
Actually, this is incorrect. They DO have a gift: many of the breed have all the components needed: the strong bone & feet, the innate ability to go long distances at speed and stay metabolically sound, the energy level to want to do it.
And this is because of breeding…why is this such a mystery?
Most breeds were bred to do various jobs. This is not a mystery and well documented. The light “warrior” horses of the the East (the Barb, the Turkoman horse (like an Akhal Teke) and the Arab were all bred to be primarily a horse of war, to be ridden in raids. There is no modern breed still in existence of which this is true.
Now, Morgan’s (for instance) were bred to race short distances, do farm work, and riding, but not the distance at the same speed the others were. The US Army used Morgans & TBs in their remount program, but if you look at historical records, large, organized cavalries like the US Army or European armies like Napoleon, etc. were rarely if ever asked to cover the type of distance at the speed the Arabs/Tekes, etc. were.
I suspect it was because they were usually accompanied by foot soldiers, but I’m not a student of war history. I do know if a group of soldiers travelled 50 miles in one day, it was absolutely note worthy. It was HUGE! 20-30miles (or less) was much more common.
Whereas the Eastern horses would commonly travel 100-200 miles to the raid (since nobody wanted to raid their immediate neighbors ;)). The main war mount was lead unridden to the raid camp (the Bedouins rode camels, the Turkomen warriors rode a lesser quality stallion which was called an “alaman”), then the raider would mount his “best” war horse, swoop down and grab his loot (which often consisted of a woman in the case of the Turkomans :yes:), and run like hell. Of course the other guys ran after them!
There are historical accounts (several) of early travellers seeing a Teke gallop with a man & much loot on his back for a steady 40-50 miles. Personally, I don’t know if I believe it, but it’s recorded several times in old travel accounts. Ditto with the Arabs.
Why do you think other cultures prized these animals so? Because even way back then, these breeds brought something to the table no other breed could in terms of speed, endurance and hardiness. Plus they were pretty :).
There is written evidence that the Chinese Emperor Woo, way back in 500 BC or something, fought a major war just so he could get some Akhal Tekes! Some 40,000 soldier died! So the value of these horses was recognized centuries ago.
It is an indisputable fact that Arab & the Teke are the world’s oldest recognized breeds (and we are still arguing over which is older, although there is some pretty firm historical evidence that the Akhal Teke actually predates the Arab by 1000 yrs or so…) that is one heck of a powerful genetic package to bring to the table.
You have so many Arabs EXCELING in endurance simply because they have been and (now) ARE being bred for it.
It’s really this simple. So many opinions are being offered that you can take “any sound horse who likes to travel” and turn it into a top endurance horse by proper conditioning, etc…and that simply isn’t true.
You MUST have a physical ability – all that conditioning, etc. can only enhance it – it cannot CREATE it.
Look, I worked on the track for years. It’s the same thing. All the horses got trained by the same person, but not all became successful racehorses. So, while good training is a vital component, it’s not the most important thing.
Ability is. And if you take 50 Arabs, 50 Morgans, 50 TWs, 50 QHs, 50 – well, you get the idea ;); statistics prove you will have more Arabs EXCEL at the sport than any other breed.
'Cause they have been bred for this for centuries.
You know, I can never understand why we humans spend 1,000’s of years breeding horses for a specific purpose, then get all defensive when it works :D.
I’m sure if some Morgan breeder wanted to create Morgan endurance horses, it could be do in several generations…but that is not their thing, for the most part.
And I doubt it would be practical – folks all over the world have been breeding again for a primary use of endurance riding (racing), so they’ve taken a breed that already has an solid aptitude for the sport and bred the ones that succeed.
You think “Arab” is the only breed now? Just wait 25 yrs. I will almost guarantee you that the upper levels of the sport will be totally dominated by Arabs all over the world, just as WBs dominate dressage and show jumping today.
And the lower levels will have all kinds of horses & riders just enjoying the sport – just like in dressage today!
The problem is semantics. While some use the term “gift” - I call it the result selective breeding for conformation and temperament.
I am in complete agreement with the fact that Arabians EXCEL at endurance. I’ve known some lovely, lovely Arabians. One of my fondest Christmas Eve memories was of standing in a stall after dark brushing down a wonderful Arabian stallion named Rdamkin (b. 1955, son of Damascus), who stood quietly gazing out his window with a look in his eye that I will remember until my last days. He was a very special horse.
You might even find yourself in the top ten once or twice if you ride smart and have a competitively conditioned horse.
