How Much Would You Pay? (Lease/Buy) UPDATE

[IPEsq]

Wait, what? Horse has at least a year of show experience (quality and amount has yet to be disclosed), but is a “failed” show horse because it didn’t place at rated shows? Again, without any useful information about the shows attended.

Horses are priced based on athletic ability, level of training, and experience. Going around at horse shows for a year is experience. Maybe those shows give us information about the other 2 components, such as did he have a bunch of rails down (not careful), was he not making it around courses even with a pro (not well trained/has holes), or was there maybe some not so great riding and/or extremely stiff competition (so, doing pretty decently for first time out)?

Sellers can decide where they want to price the horse. They try to anticipate a price that the market will bear. If you are not a buyer who fits into that price range or you think horse is overpriced, then you can tell sellers you don’t want to pay that, and they can tell you good luck and send you on your way. They are not pricing the horse to sell it to YOU…they are pricing it as to what they believe is appropriate for a hypothetical potential buyer. Whether they will negotiate and accept your offer is one thing, but refusing to do so doesn’t mean they are being unreasonable.

I bought a youngster who has never set hoof on a show grounds and consider him a show horse because that was the job he was purchased for and that’s how he’d been cared for and developed in training. If same horse had some good rated ribbons, he would have been out of my price range.

[french_fry]

OP, do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you try to paint this horse that you CLEARLY want to lease as a “failed show horse”?

Just curious!

[The_Country_Eventer]

Sounds to me like the HO understands the value of their horse and the OP doesn’t. thus, the HO isn’t going to lease to someone who doesn’t appreciate the horse for what it is. “Failed show horse”? What HO is going to cut a deal for someone who already views the horse that way?

I’ve known of several high end deals with horses, houses, cars, etc, where the owner is willing to barter/go down on their price if they think the person is the right fit. Obviously owner doesn’t think so. Sucks, but that’s the prerogative as owner. Owners have paid the price to be picky.

[Denzel]

[QUOTE=The Country Eventer;8168942]
I’ve known of several high end deals with horses, houses, cars, etc, where the owner is willing to barter/go down on their price if they think the person is the right fit. Obviously owner doesn’t think so. Sucks, but that’s the prerogative as owner. Owners have paid the price to be picky.[/QUOTE]

Definitely agree with the above. Also, just to note that telling an owner that their horse is a “failed show horse” and the price is ridiculous, and so on is likely going to make them NOT want to deal with you. Catch more flies with honey and all that.

[findeight]

If OP does not agree with owners valuation or terms that’s fine.

But trashing them on here for not “adhering” to non exsistent official, published pricing guidelines when seeking to lowball them because, in OPs opinion, it’s a failed show horse and she’s just going to jump it 3 times a week at home then give it back in 6 months after the show season wraps? So they have to accept 7500 for 6 months?

Based on OPs viewing of a website OP thinks they are entitled to dictate terms? It’s sellers horse, sellers decision and bashing them is inappropriate. Even if they are delusional in their pricing, OP may be equally delusional in expectation of dictating terms and controlling the deal based on website searching.

Not every horse gets posted on any site and the best deals are word of mouth and never see a cyberspace listing. So that’s a bad gauge of “the way things are” across the board and hardly leverage in deal making.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8162508]
If you have a competent rider who knows what they are doing supplemented with a professional lesson program, the horse should wind up back in your care in the same condition. Plus, you are temporarily suspending your rights as to what I can and can’t do (per terms of an agreed upon lease agreement) in a lease.

And I beg to differ…a lessee is not only paying for a lease fee, but also assuming all of your costs…isn’t that what a lease is? That is your compensation for the use of your horse.

As I said before, the horse could get hurt in its stall, turnout, training…all under the owner’s care. That’s the risk a lessor takes to alleviate expenses. Otherwise, why lease at all?[/QUOTE]

That is the issue - why lease at all? When I’ve leased my horses it’s because I didn’t have time to ride and I found a great fit for them. Someone who rides them the way I like, who works with a trainer I respect, and is in a barn where they get the care I want. Unfortunately, it’s really hard to get the stars to align on all these elements.

IME, it takes more than a “competent” rider. It takes the right rider. I pretty much stopped letting other people ride my horses because I got tired of them coming back needing work. I have never had a horse come back that’s been improved by the lessor, at best, the horse is one that can take a joke and it more or less comes back in the same state as before. When I want my horses to improve, it’s actually more cost-effective in the long run to pay for a pro ride (or work out a deal with a talented up and coming rider who wants to ride my horse and can’t afford one that is that nice).

I have learned that the worst people to deal with are the ones who think that they are doing me a favor by riding my horse :D.

[bringing_up_baby]

Update:
We couldn’t work out a lease agreement, so I passed on the horse. The trainer took the horse to two major shows to market and try to sell horse. While at show, horse got 7th out of 10 in Training Jumpers with a pro and 5th out of 12 in Modified Children’s Jumpers with another student. Incidentally, a OTTB schooling horse from same barn and student beat out this horse in other classes…and by beat out, I mean was Champion, while this “experienced” horse finished close to last.

Now I know that you all were bashing about why does show record matter when factoring a lease price. I’ll let that one go, as it is beating a dead horse. Pardon the pun.

Horse has since not sold. Two months later, I made an offer that was less than half of original price, which they immediately accepted. Routine things like former medical records/health history and who owners are were kept more under-wraps than an international military crisis. Turns out horse was trade-in. Owner listed on USEF, which horse is showing under, isn’t really owner. Horse is also 13 years old. Trainer went to bat for me as the horse and I are a really good match. However, if I buy, financially, I can only afford to keep the horse for a little over a year, as boarding is NY/CT expensive.

Now I’m stuck with the question:
Who would buy a 15 year old horse with no recent show record, and the only other show record being a dismal 2014 show record?

Should I pass on this horse and look elsewhere?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8228671]
However, if I buy, financially, I can only afford to keep the horse for a little over a year, as boarding is NY/CT expensive.

Now I’m stuck with the question:
Who would buy a 15 year old horse with no recent show record, and the only other show record being a dismal 2014 show record?

Should I pass on this horse and look elsewhere?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the update. But the bolded part scares the pants off me (and I have kept horses in that NY/CT mecca, so I know the financial hemorrhaging you are talking about.)

In your spot, I’d lease, no matter what. I think that you might have to spend the entire year you have the horse never putting a foot wrong because you are also marketing him. If he doesn’t sell by, say, October of 2016, what’s your plan for feeding him? And what will you do to keep him marketable? Those are both really expensive in that part of the country-- the “just feeding the horse without marketing him” being almost worse that keeping the horse in training and being shown to buyers.

I don’t think this horse or another would make me want to buy at all if I only have 12 months of money and then no plan.

[mvp]

Or…… is this horse useful enough to you and cheap enough that you could happily give him away when your money ran out? I ask because of the high cost of keeping one in NY/CT. And is this horse pretty simple to ride? If you can answer yes to all of that, I’d be more willing to take the risky option of buying a horse you only want for a year.

[joiedevie99]

Ditto what MVP said. I live here, and know the costs well. You absolutely cannot go into a horse purchase thinking you can only afford to keep it a year. That’s just not realistic. Hold out for a lease.

[vxf111]

If a lease is what you need/want stop trying to make these sellers lease and find one that is actually for lease!

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=mvp;8228692]
Or…… is this horse useful enough to you and cheap enough that you could happily give him away when your money ran out? I ask because of the high cost of keeping one in NY/CT. And is this horse pretty simple to ride? If you can answer yes to all of that, I’d be more willing to take the risky option of buying a horse you only want for a year.[/QUOTE]

That’s why I come on this forum for advice. You really put it in perspective for me and pretty much confirmed what I was already thinking.

I was buying because the price that I got them down to was $15,000 less than it was to lease, plus I’d have the control over what would happen if the horse got hurt, which I wouldn’t have if I leased.

I have been severely sick with a myriad of health problems for 10 years that have prevented me from finishing college, getting a job, or doing just about anything. Riding is the only thing that I can do.

What I was thinking was just taking a $50k hit after a year of boarding/care/purchase price and giving the horse away or maybe try to get $10k out of it, if someone would pay that for a 15 year old packer. Horse is super simple to ride. Hell, $50k is a lot of money to pee away for one year, but it would be better than constant depression.

And as far as marketing, that’s where the show record comes in to play. No one in the area would want a horse with that kind of show record I previously described. And if I showed, I’d be throwing more money out the door, as the horse doesn’t do well in shows.

[IPEsq]

How do you know it won’t do well with you? You never answered why it doesn’t win in the jumpers. Is it not careful? Or do the riders not go fast/take efficient tracks. That the pro got a poor ribbon in training jumpers doesn’t mean diddly to me. Horse is being prepped for the kid and doesn’t need to be a winner in that division. If it was another division, I might have more questions.

Overall, it sounds like you really need to give up on this horse and find a lease horse to make you happy. A lease is what you can afford. Full stop.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8228723]

What I was thinking was just taking a $50k hit after a year of boarding/care/purchase price and giving the horse away or maybe try to get $10k out of it, if someone would pay that for a 15 year old packer. Horse is super simple to ride. Hell, $50k is a lot of money to pee away for one year, but it would be better than constant depression.

And as far as marketing, that’s where the show record comes in to play. No one in the area would want a horse with that kind of show record I previously described. And if I showed, I’d be throwing more money out the door, as the horse doesn’t do well in shows.[/QUOTE]

I’m a bit confused, but understanding the numbers matters here. So the $50K is the amount you’ll spend feeding, training and showing the horse? Or that figure is what you’d lose between purchase price and selling him for a mere $10K.

When I said give him away, I meant literally For Free if you had to, not insisting on getting $10K out of a 15 year old jumper that had no show record before you, just one year with you and a little bit of desperation on your part to stop feeding him ASAP at the end of that year.

To put it another way. A steal of a deal at $10K in your market is a lot of money to people in other markets. Your pro may not have interest in working super hard for the $1K she’ll get in commission, if you guys regularly traffic in horses worth a lot more. In this case, you are on your own for marketing and will find more people in lower rungs of the horse world. And those guys are looking for a bargain. But $10K may be a lot of money to them, not a little. So now you are back to marketing an older horse without much of a record to people who only have $10K to spend.

This calculation isn’t a deal-breaker, of course. I just means that you need to lower your purchase price such that you really could give him away and live with it if you needed to. After all, you could easily spend $3K/month waiting around for the right buyer… so in just 3 months or so, you lost that $10K you needed to feel OK about purchasing anyway.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=mvp;8228787]
I’m a bit confused, but understanding the numbers matters here. So the $50K is the amount you’ll spend feeding, training and showing the horse? Or that figure is what you’d lose between purchase price and selling him for a mere $10K.

When I said give him away, I meant literally For Free if you had to, not insisting on getting $10K out of a 15 year old jumper that had no show record before you, just one year with you and a little bit of desperation on your part to stop feeding him ASAP at the end of that year.

To put it another way. A steal of a deal at $10K in your market is a lot of money to people in other markets. Your pro may not have interest in working super hard for the $1K she’ll get in commission, if you guys regularly traffic in horses worth a lot more. In this case, you are on your own for marketing and will find more people in lower rungs of the horse world. And those guys are looking for a bargain. But $10K may be a lot of money to them, not a little. So now you are back to marketing an older horse without much of a record to people who only have $10K to spend.

This calculation isn’t a deal-breaker, of course. I just means that you need to lower your purchase price such that you really could give him away and live with it if you needed to. After all, you could easily spend $3K/month waiting around for the right buyer… so in just 3 months or so, you lost that $10K you needed to feel OK about purchasing anyway.[/QUOTE]

See. This was my whole issue with show record, whether leasing, and especially reselling.

$50k would include purchase, farrier, minor vet, boarding, insurance, and lessons. I would market (no trainer/broker) probably 4 months before I’d run out of finances. If I couldn’t get anything, I’d give it for free so I wouldn’t have to pay boarding or care.

I wouldn’t go through a trainer to market, and I wouldn’t be going to shows, as the horse was ridden by 7 different people, and none did well. I don’t know if they were pros or experienced or newbie amateurs. Just going by the facts. And the selling point was that the horse can get the rider out of trouble, so at least half, especially at the .95m levels should’ve been top 5.

All in all, is the general consensus that 15 years is too old to resell a packer, even at 3’-3’3"?

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8228751]
How do you know it won’t do well with you? You never answered why it doesn’t win in the jumpers. Is it not careful? Or do the riders not go fast/take efficient tracks. That the pro got a poor ribbon in training jumpers doesn’t mean diddly to me. Horse is being prepped for the kid and doesn’t need to be a winner in that division. If it was another division, I might have more questions.

Overall, it sounds like you really need to give up on this horse and find a lease horse to make you happy. A lease is what you can afford. Full stop.[/QUOTE]

I have no clue. It was shown in CA only by about 7 different riders in classes varying from .95m-1.40m, sometimes that kind of height difference at the same show. That many riders leads me to believe it’s the horse somehow, whether too slow or poles down. Could be wrong.

Have no clue who owners are. Horse switched hands and became recent trade in. Very fishy when I tried to get details from trainer and broker, who, if I mentioned, you’d recognize as one of the foremost judges/trainer in the country.

I would lease, but most, not all, owners want all reward and no risk. Why would I do that? They have to risk something too. Just like leasing a house. That’s why there is insurance.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8228819]

All in all, is the general consensus that 15 years is too old to resell a packer, even at 3’-3’3"?[/QUOTE]

Around here I don’t think there is a strong market for a 15 year old packer that doesn’t show unless he is also has other uses like a great trail horse. Either way, I don’t think he would bring in a lot of money.

[findeight]

He really sounds like a school or move up type from his background, 5th out of 10 in a modified Childrens class is not a failure-that’s kind of a novice group and, as mentioned, the Pro was schooling him for the kid, not trying to win. Fact he’s probably more the steady Eddie type that’s not going to be the big winner but can take a joke and not kill anybody.

But he’s going to be hard to resell on your own because these horses generally go to barns with a good program bringing riders along, trainers buy them and lease them out as the riders steps up. You will see many riders listed on them, that’s not a bad thing at all, if he was bad, nobody would be riding him.

Hes not going to work for you and will be a hard sell. Leasing is much more fair to any horse in your situation.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=findeight;8229074]
He really sounds like a school or move up type from his background, 5th out of 10 in a modified Childrens class is not a failure-that’s kind of a novice group and, as mentioned, the Pro was schooling him for the kid, not trying to win. Fact he’s probably more the steady Eddie type that’s not going to be the big winner but can take a joke and not kill anybody.

But he’s going to be hard to resell on your own because these horses generally go to barns with a good program bringing riders along, trainers buy them and lease them out as the riders steps up. You will see many riders listed on them, that’s not a bad thing at all, if he was bad, nobody would be riding him.

Hes not going to work for you and will be a hard sell. Leasing is much more fair to any horse in your situation.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree with this.

At that level, to win you have to run like a bat out of Hades and the winners quite often are not the most talented, they are the ones who have horses with the best sense of self preservation.

This horse sounds like a good packer type and as F8 describes, the kind of horse a pro can use as a move up option for riders in the barn. They get sold/leased in programs, though.

I lived in that area and paid the ridiculous board prices for almost a decade, so I hear you about the COL. If you can really only do this for a year, find a lease. There should be many available this time of year as kids get ready to head off to college.

[Belmont]

Why would you want a horse you talk so much crap about? It is obvious it isn’t going to work out with you, the horse, and the “well known trainer/judge” person.

Move on. Find a different horse that you can LEASE.