How Much Would You Pay? (Lease/Buy) UPDATE

[vxf111]

The horse has a shady background/tangled ownership, is older than you thought, doesn’t win, you really can’t afford it when you’re honest with yourself, it’s not even that nice of a horse (according to you)-- why on earth then are you so deadset on making THIS horse work. Red flags all over the place and it’s not what you want anyway (since you want to lease). Move on.

I have honestly never seen someone so intent to try to make a seller do what the buyer wants. Never. And you don’t even think that highly of this horse. Just move on and keep looking!

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=Belmont;8229102]
Why would you want a horse you talk so much crap about? It is obvious it isn’t going to work out with you, the horse, and the “well known trainer/judge” person.

Move on. Find a different horse that you can LEASE.[/QUOTE]

I only “talk crap” about the show record, which all of you now agree is a problem if I buy and want to resell.

The horse is an angel, doesn’t pull (which is good for one of the medical conditions I have), can jump my level of 1.20m and do 3rd Level, which is a complete rarity in any jumper I have found. (I school 4th Level/PSG.) Lease horses that can jump 1.20m and have 3rd Level experience or good lateral foundation would cost 2x or 3x as much as it would to buy this horse for a year. Then there is no freedom in say-so for medical treatment in case of injury during lease.

Looking for a lease horse like that, which I’ve been trying to do for well over a year, I find that Lessors want all reward and no risk. That’s not how the real business world works. That’s what insurance is for. I don’t want an unrideable horse if it gets injured a few months or half in to the lease and have to pay board for something I can’t use. That’s why in my past leases, I have a clause that says if horse becomes injured or unripe able for more than 14 days after being checked out by vet, Lessor will prorate 50% remaining lease fee. This clause was actually written by a Lessor of a horse I had, and I think it’s only fair for them to assume some risk, too, as they are getting lease fee, boarding, training, vet, mortality and major medical insurance, farrier, any alternative therapy treatments, etc.

And no one wants to lease. They all want to sell, as the horse is eating away their profits if they are a sales barn or own multiple horses. It’s a buyer’s market. I see listing on FB, one that came from Stal Wilten, that can’t even sell in a uber wealthy area, let alone $30k-$50k horses or even $15k horses in other parts of the country.

If anyone knows of a lease horse for the price like the one I didn’t buy, please let me know, as I’d be super greatful.

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it, and from what you all are saying, I dodged a potential bullet.

[FalseImpression]

another example to me that this horse is just a tool, a toy to you… you really don’t give a damn about the horse and what will happen to him after you have used him for a year and just give him away… if nobody wants him after you have spent your 50K, will you just let him loose, stop feeding him, sell him to a kb? I may be extreme, but frankly, I never understand people with your attitude… money (much more than I have and I look after 3 horses!) but no empathy for the horse…
I hope, for the sake of this horse, he does not end up with you.
If you have that kind of money to waste, get a horse you can learn with…

[Blinky]

I would think an older horse that packs around is leasable. So in theory, if you bought the horse and rode him a year or two. Couldn’t you lease him out afterwards? Yes, there is a gamble in that you own him regardless. So if he is injured, you have to deal with that.

I’m also not sure why this is still a discussion in your mind as you have made an offer and they accepted.

[fordtraktor]

Yes, I am sure you will find all sorts of horses jumping 1.4m and schooling PSG for $10k. Oh, and they must be packers as well that don’t pull at all. Especially since people now know you want them to share the risk of injury with you, since you are doing them the favor of training their horses for them during the lease period, jumping it three times a week.

Clean our your inbox, I am sure you will be bombarded with offers.

[bringing_up_baby]

FalseImpression

How dare you say that. I would never let a horse go to a kill buyer.

And wake up. I’m not a rich girl. This is the first horse I would own after 20 years of riding broken lesson horses, naughty horses, problem horses, private or sale horses. There are thousands of rich girls who own 2-3 horses, jump the crap out of them because all they want to do is show, and when that horse gets broken down, they get rid of it for a newer better model. I’ve ridden at many barns with girls like that.

And maybe you have a lot of land in Canada, but in major city suburbs, land is scarce and boarding around $3k.

I have leased horses and just plain ridden horses I’ve “learned with.” Now I want a horse that is at my level, mostly made, and something I can teach up in dressage.

Don’t you ever talk that way to me again. You don’t know me or my life circumstances.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8229342]
Yes, I am sure you will find all sorts of horses jumping 1.4m and schooling PSG for $10k. Oh, and they must be packers as well that don’t pull at all. Especially since people now know you want them to share the risk of injury with you, since you are doing them the favor of training their horses for them during the lease period, jumping it three times a week.

Clean our your inbox, I am sure you will be bombarded with offers.[/QUOTE]

Where the hell do you see me asking for a 1.40m horse who can do PSG? All I want is a 1.20m horse with basic lateral work…the kind George Morris has the riders do in his Horsemastership Clinic. That’s not asking a lot. But no one trains jumpers in dressage anymore.

And if you were the Lessor of a house or apartment, you have insurance (I’d actually be paying the insurance in this instance as is only fair) in case your Lessee trashes your residence, ruins your furniture, etc. That’s real life. Risk can’t be one sided. I’m paying to lease!!! I’m a saving you from your expenses!!! Do you want one of my kidneys, too? :mad:

And this is why I’m reminded that business sense and horse people are an oxymoron.

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=FalseImpression;8229329]
another example to me that this horse is just a tool, a toy to you… you really don’t give a damn about the horse and what will happen to him after you have used him for a year and just give him away… if nobody wants him after you have spent your 50K, will you just let him loose, stop feeding him, sell him to a kb? I may be extreme, but frankly, I never understand people with your attitude… money (much more than I have and I look after 3 horses!) but no empathy for the horse…
I hope, for the sake of this horse, he does not end up with you.
If you have that kind of money to waste, get a horse you can learn with…[/QUOTE]

Have you read the thread? OP said that one of the important features of buying over leasing is that OP gets to control what happens to the horse after her year is up.

I am hoping you did not read that post before writing your harsh (and rude) post.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229370]
Where the hell do you see me asking for a 1.40m horse who can do PSG? All I want is a 1.20m horse with basic lateral work…the kind George Morris has the riders do in his Horsemastership Clinic. That’s not asking a lot. But no one trains jumpers in dressage anymore.

And if you were the Lessor of a house or apartment, you have insurance (I’d actually be paying the insurance in this instance as is only fair) in case your Lessee trashes your residence, ruins your furniture, etc. That’s real life. Risk can’t be one sided. I’m paying to lease!!! I’m a saving you from your expenses!!! Do you want one of my kidneys, too? :mad:

And this is why I’m reminded that business sense and horse people are an oxymoron.[/QUOTE]

I still don’t think you are looking at the cost/benefits to the Lessor in the right (mathematical) light.

Let’s say the horse tears a suspensory while he’s with you. You and the lessor did insure him, and to so far, everything is on the up and up in terms of people paying for what they should and what is fair: You paid that premium. The insurance company pays for the most treatment the HO’s vet can secure for the horse. You end the lease.

But wait! There’s more cost to the lessor. Healing takes a long time. The HO pays to feed the horse for that time; perhaps insurance coverage ends and treatments stop? At a minimum, the HO now has a horse that’s harder to sell or lease: He’s out of work, he has an injury that has healed but not been re-tried and he’s older.

To my way of thinking-- as so many said before your update-- the risk to the HO’s wallet assumed by allowing you to use this horse for a year and do little more than feed him just isn’t wise.

[comeoutandplay]

The difference between rental properties and lease horses is that even if a renter trashes a rental property the owner may have to put out money to fix things but the fundamental value of the property is intact. If a horse is injured on lease even if the leasee is responsible for the horse’s expenses during the length of the lease, the horse could Easily come back to its owner with absolutely no value. The horse could go from a 50k asset to a financial liability in the blink of an eye. Arguably it’s not even a matter of if this will happen but when. The owner of a horse has a lot more risk leading it out than a landlord.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8229387]
Have you read the thread? OP said that one of the important features of buying over leasing is that OP gets to control what happens to the horse after her year is up.

I am hoping you did not read that post before writing your harsh (and rude) post.[/QUOTE]

I thought the OP was scheduled to run out of money at the end of 12 months? How does that amount to wanting to care about the horse at the end of the year, or, rather, being able to do anything to help the horse then? I’m confused.

I thought the OP’s complaint about “control” in a leasing situation was with respect to making none of the medical decisions for the horse but being asked to pay for all of the treatment. I understand that fear. That’s what an insurance policy is for, IMO.

[vxf111]

Running out of money=not an ideal set of circumstances in which to adequately rehome a horse=more risk of the horse getting a bad home. I really wouldn’t do it. I just wouldn’t. Let’s say he gets a career-ending injury somewhere during that year-- even giving him away may be impossible. It’s an irresponsible thing to do given the OP’s life plan, finances, health, the horse’s details, etc. It’d be different if she had some reasonable backup plan but she hasn’t articulated one.

[Blinky]

Valid point

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229370]
Where the hell do you see me asking for a 1.40m horse who can do PSG? All I want is a 1.20m horse with basic lateral work…the kind George Morris has the riders do in his Horsemastership Clinic. That’s not asking a lot. But no one trains jumpers in dressage anymore.

And if you were the Lessor of a house or apartment, you have insurance (I’d actually be paying the insurance in this instance as is only fair) in case your Lessee trashes your residence, ruins your furniture, etc. That’s real life. Risk can’t be one sided. I’m paying to lease!!! I’m a saving you from your expenses!!! Do you want one of my kidneys, too? :mad:

And this is why I’m reminded that business sense and horse people are an oxymoron.[/QUOTE]

Don’t tell us about our lack of business sense. or better yet, if you have good business sense, evaluate this: I have leased two horses. One came back with two blown suspensories. He was never sound again despite the best veterinary care. his rehab and retirement cost me at least twenty grand over the next eight years. I paid for that, not the leasor who broke him. I can’t really even say it was her fault. I don’t know what happened and she seemed to provide excellent care as far as I could tell. I would send horses there again and recommend her. But still, my horse broke.

the other one came back foundered. That horse I had to put down. which broke my heart, not to mention I lost a lot of money. I don’t even know how much, but all his purchase price, and vet fees, and three years of feeding and riding time as I started him myself and got him going nicely packing kids around small course, trail riding…he was a nice little kid’s hunter. I leased him out when I went to law school. A few months later, a friend who lived near the lease had to call me and tell me the horse was foundering, the lessee never notified me or called the vet for SIX WEEKS while this was happening. He was SIX. it still makes me mad to think about it. If I had got him back right away I might have been able to fix him.

So don’t tell me about how much business sense it makes to lease horses to people, because they increase their value while “saving me from my expenses.” You seem to have this sense that you are doing leasors this huge favor. Well, you will find that most people don’t want to lease because they’ve been burned like me far more often than they have good experiences. It’s not that we don’t understand the principles of business, dear. Would you want to lease a horse again if you’d had those experiences? would you consider it sound business judgment to even consider it?

Leasing cost me far more money in the long run than I ever made, and two good horses. And I leased to good people, known entities, not places where you’d expect this.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229298]
I only “talk crap” about the show record, which all of you now agree is a problem if I buy and want to resell.

The horse is an angel, doesn’t pull (which is good for one of the medical conditions I have), can jump my level of 1.20m and do 3rd Level, which is a complete rarity in any jumper I have found. (I school 4th Level/PSG.) Lease horses that can jump 1.20m and have 3rd Level experience or good lateral foundation would cost 2x or 3x as much as it would to buy this horse for a year. Then there is no freedom in say-so for medical treatment in case of injury during lease.

Looking for a lease horse like that, which I’ve been trying to do for well over a year, I find that Lessors want all reward and no risk. That’s not how the real business world works. That’s what insurance is for. I don’t want an unrideable horse if it gets injured a few months or half in to the lease and have to pay board for something I can’t use. That’s why in my past leases, I have a clause that says if horse becomes injured or unripe able for more than 14 days after being checked out by vet, Lessor will prorate 50% remaining lease fee. This clause was actually written by a Lessor of a horse I had, and I think it’s only fair for them to assume some risk, too, as they are getting lease fee, boarding, training, vet, mortality and major medical insurance, farrier, any alternative therapy treatments, etc.

And no one wants to lease. They all want to sell, as the horse is eating away their profits if they are a sales barn or own multiple horses. It’s a buyer’s market. I see listing on FB, one that came from Stal Wilten, that can’t even sell in a uber wealthy area, let alone $30k-$50k horses or even $15k horses in other parts of the country.

If anyone knows of a lease horse for the price like the one I didn’t buy, please let me know, as I’d be super greatful.

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it, and from what you all are saying, I dodged a potential bullet.[/QUOTE]

I think your perception of the shared risk in a lease is going to be your biggest obstacle in finding a lease arrangement.

You keep saying, “that’s what insurance is for,” without seeming to understand that insurance does not even begin to cover most of what the owner is at risk for in a lease.

For example, insurance does NOTHING to protect an owner from:

1. The ongoing costs of boarding and caring for a horse that has had an injury, particularly a career limiting or career ending problem. These costs can go on for YEARS.
2. Damage done to the horse’s training and/or attitude caused by poor riding, over-riding, bad training, crashes, etc. This damage may or may not be fixable, but will at a minimum require a substantial investment in re-schooling, etc.
3. The damage to a horse’s reputation/record caused by less than stellar show results that are caused by a novice or less than competitive rider. See your own comments about how “off putting” the horse’s current results are to you if you doubt this.

These are among the reasons that owners of nice horses really don’t want to lease, especially to someone who only wants to use the horse for a short period of time and then give it back, with the caveat that they won’t even commit to the horse for that short period if the toy breaks during use.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8229472]
I think your perception of the shared risk in a lease is going to be your biggest obstacle in finding a lease arrangement.

You keep saying, “that’s what insurance is for,” without seeming to understand that insurance does not even begin to cover most of what the owner is at risk for in a lease.

For example, insurance does NOTHING to protect an owner from:

1. The ongoing costs of boarding and caring for a horse that has had an injury, particularly a career limiting or career ending problem. These costs can go on for YEARS.
2. Damage done to the horse’s training and/or attitude caused by poor riding, over-riding, bad training, crashes, etc. This damage may or may not be fixable, but will at a minimum require a substantial investment in re-schooling, etc.
3. The damage to a horse’s reputation/record caused by less than stellar show results that are caused by a novice or less than competitive rider. See your own comments about how “off putting” the horse’s current results are to you if you doubt this.

These are among the reasons that owners of nice horses really don’t want to lease, especially to someone who only wants to use the horse for a short period of time and then give it back, with the caveat that they won’t even commit to the horse for that short period if the toy breaks during use.[/QUOTE]

This is the root of the issue. I leased twice: once the horse came back, through no real fault of the leasor, with two blown suspensories and was never the same again. His rehab and retirement easily cost me $20k. probably more if I think about it but I try not to.

the other one came back foundered which was a nightmare. He was six and was never sound again. I don’t want to think about the money I lost on that horse but the heartbreak was worse.

That is why it does not make “business sense” to lease. It has nothing at all to do with the lease period, it’s what happens if you eff up the horse and I get left holding the lead rope for the next fifteen years. Your lease fee needs to make that worthwhile to me because I don’t euthanize my broken horses.

And if you turn it into a stopper, etc., that’s almost as bad.

the show results are sort of a nonissue. You just don’t understand how to read the show results. Maybe you need to ask your trainer. It’s more important to watch the video. In the lower level jumpers, what you want is to see if the horse is going around nicely in a new place or is the rider having to muscle it around. as an experienced horse with some age, it ought to just flow around and jump everything without a second look. If the rider gets it to a bad spot, it is going anyway or stopping? If going anyway, good horse! Even if it has a rail. If slow, doesn’t matter. for a rider with your health issues a horse that canters around like an eq horse sounds like a better fit than a bat out of hell racer that is going to win the Childrens/Adults anyway.

OP has been taking lessons for years, she might not be able to afford to keep the horse in NYC area long term but she could retire him to one of the retirement farms COTHers own upstate or in VA for a few hundred a month, I am sure, if he goes lame. that’s a lesson or two for her. Maybe she hasn’t thought that through but the option is there.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8229472]
I think your perception of the shared risk in a lease is going to be your biggest obstacle in finding a lease arrangement.

You keep saying, “that’s what insurance is for,” without seeming to understand that insurance does not even begin to cover most of what the owner is at risk for in a lease.

For example, insurance does NOTHING to protect an owner from:

1. The ongoing costs of boarding and caring for a horse that has had an injury, particularly a career limiting or career ending problem. These costs can go on for YEARS.
2. Damage done to the horse’s training and/or attitude caused by poor riding, over-riding, bad training, crashes, etc. This damage may or may not be fixable, but will at a minimum require a substantial investment in re-schooling, etc.
3. The damage to a horse’s reputation/record caused by less than stellar show results that are caused by a novice or less than competitive rider. See your own comments about how “off putting” the horse’s current results are to you if you doubt this.

These are among the reasons that owners of nice horses really don’t want to lease, especially to someone who only wants to use the horse for a short period of time and then give it back, with the caveat that they won’t even commit to the horse for that short period if the toy breaks during use.[/QUOTE]

1. That’s the risk a horse owner/Lessor takes in leasing out a horse. Leasing is done all the time despite that risk and potentially unfortunate and unfavorable circumstances. It’s also part of what makes the financial side of the horse world go round.
2. That’s why, as a Lessee, I freely offer up riding credentials…who I’ve trained with in the past–certified trainers who sometimes are “R” judges, etc. I also let them know who the trainer is that I plan to ride under while leasing so they can call and check the trainer out. If they don’t, that’s not my fault.
3. Completely agree. (And I don’t like showing, so that’s a moot point to me.)

[vxf111]

Okay but given that you acknowledge that #1 is a big risk, do you not also see that it’s one of many reason why the sellers don’t want to lease or only want to lease for a big price? And why, given your life limitations, leasing is a million times better option for you?

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229298]
Then there is no freedom in say-so for medical treatment in case of injury during lease.
<snip>
I don’t want an unrideable horse if it gets injured a few months or half in to the lease and have to pay board for something I can’t use. [/QUOTE]
And if you own the horse? So much worse to own an unrideable horse that you then can’t give away.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8229484]
This is the root of the issue. I leased twice: once the horse came back, through no real fault of the leasor, with two blown suspensories and was never the same again. His rehab and retirement easily cost me $20k. probably more if I think about it but I try not to.

the other one came back foundered which was a nightmare. He was six and was never sound again. I don’t want to think about the money I lost on that horse but the heartbreak was worse.

That is why it does not make “business sense” to lease. It has nothing at all to do with the lease period, it’s what happens if you eff up the horse and I get left holding the lead rope for the next fifteen years. Your lease fee needs to make that worthwhile to me because I don’t euthanize my broken horses.[/QUOTE]

I read before you edited your post. That is awful that your Lessee didn’t call the vet for 6 weeks regarding founder. That would never happen in my case. That’s also why I have a very well-written lease looked over by an equine attorney. Like I said in my other post to Lucassb, I offer up my “riding resume” as you will, who I’ve trained with, who I will be training with, etc. so owner/Lessor can make inquiries to avoid horrific things like not giving proper veterinary care, how I ride (certainly not making the horse worse), etc.

I am so, so sorry that you had to put your horse down. What that person did is abuse, and it disgusts me.

Again, that’s the risk you take in leasing out the horse.

I can understand if you are gun shy. I am gun shy, too, as I have been burned in 3/4 leases. The two most recent ones cost around $15k just for 5 months for both horses (different time periods). I leased one that was at the premier barn in my area. The pro had ridden and apprenticed under Missy Clark. They had a horse from out of state that seemed perfect. Jumped 1.30m, was a bit rusty in dressage, but nothing that I couldn’t polish up with my dressage experience. Turned out the horse was drugged. Couldn’t ride it for the 3 months I had it. Still had to pay for boarding, farrier, vaccinations, etc. Turns out the owner was banned by the USEF this May for drugging another horse and is now not allowed to train, show, or set foot at sanctioned shows for 6 months. I get it. I really do. That was the risk I took as a Lessee. I got bit in the ass for trusting and not doing my homework. Very expensive lesson learned. But at the same token, that’s the gamble a Lessor takes as well, or no one would be leasing.