How Much Would You Pay? (Lease/Buy) UPDATE

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229529]
I read before you edited your post. That is awful that your Lessee didn’t call the vet for 6 weeks regarding founder. That would never happen in my case. That’s also why I have a very well-written lease looked over by an equine attorney. Like I said in my other post to Lucassb, I offer up my “riding resume” as you will, who I’ve trained with, who I will be training with, etc. so owner/Lessor can make inquiries to avoid horrific things like not giving proper veterinary care, how I ride (certainly not making the horse worse), etc.

I am so, so sorry that you had to put your horse down. What that person did is abuse, and it disgusts me.

Again, that’s the risk you take in leasing out the horse.

I can understand if you are gun shy. I am gun shy, too, as I have been burned in 3/4 leases. The two most recent ones cost around $15k just for 5 months for both horses (different time periods). I leased one that was at the premier barn in my area. The pro had ridden and apprenticed under Missy Clark. They had a horse from out of state that seemed perfect. Jumped 1.30m, was a bit rusty in dressage, but nothing that I couldn’t polish up with my dressage experience. Turned out the horse was drugged. Couldn’t ride it for the 3 months I had it. Still had to pay for boarding, farrier, vaccinations, etc. Turns out the owner was banned by the USEF this May for drugging another horse and is now not allowed to train, show, or set foot at sanctioned shows for 6 months. I get it. I really do. That was the risk I took as a Lessee. I got bit in the ass for trusting and not doing my homework. Very expensive lesson learned. But at the same token, that’s the gamble a Lessor takes as well, or no one would be leasing.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it was awful. It still makes me angry that such a nice horse was wasted like that, and that I couldn’t fix him.

But still, I had a good contract. They were supposed to notify me if the horse was injured or needed a vet, etc. They just…didn’t do it. and you are right – it is the risk you take in leasing out a horse, and that’s why I don’t lease out horses any more, no matter what kind of contract I have. In real life for a good portion of the time I’m a contracts attorney, I know how worthwhile contracts are: they are as good as the word of the people signing them. that’s all. because people can and do break contracts all the time; then you have to go to court or arbitration, etc. to have them enforced. Which may or may not be worth it, depending on what is at stake. For a horse, a lot of time the damage has been done. You might get some money, but you’ll never get your horse’s health back.

As for riding, I can usually fix the riding stuff so I encourage people to ride my horses – at my place, under my watchful eye. It’s good for horses to have one main rider but a variety of riders every now and then, but if it wasn’t going well I can always intervene and give pointers, or worst case end the ride.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8229484]

the show results are sort of a nonissue. You just don’t understand how to read the show results. Maybe you need to ask your trainer. It’s more important to watch the video. In the lower level jumpers, what you want is to see if the horse is going around nicely in a new place or is the rider having to muscle it around. as an experienced horse with some age, it ought to just flow around and jump everything without a second look. If the rider gets it to a bad spot, it is going anyway or stopping? If going anyway, good horse! Even if it has a rail. If slow, doesn’t matter. for a rider with your health issues a horse that canters around like an eq horse sounds like a better fit than a bat out of hell racer that is going to win the Childrens/Adults anyway.

OP has been taking lessons for years, she might not be able to afford to keep the horse in NYC area long term but she could retire him to one of the retirement farms COTHers own upstate or in VA for a few hundred a month, I am sure, if he goes lame. that’s a lesson or two for her. Maybe she hasn’t thought that through but the option is there.[/QUOTE]

There are no videos at ANY height. So I have no clue what the rider did or what the rounds looked like. Again, this horse didn’t just show at .95m-1.10m…it went in 1.15m all the way up to 1.40m.

It is a very smooth horse, doesn’t stop or spook or pull and can do dressage, which is why I wanted to originally lease and now buy as it is cheaper than leasing, as it is perfect for my health situations. It is between an eq horse and a jumper…tough in between to market. Can get fast with a novice but steady under an advanced rider. At least that was my feeling when I tried the horse out.

And yes, giving it away to a trail home, low level lesson barn for money or not, or putting in a retirement home are all options.

[fordtraktor]

I don’t know why you’re hesitating, this horse sounds perfect for what you want.

I don’t think you are likely to find a lot of leases capable of fitting your needs for the price you want to pay, honestly. I also think you should consider managing your lesson and barn expenses such that you can keep this horse for more than a year. It sounds like a good fit for you and you like the horse; manage it as long as you can because these don’t grow on trees.

I actually don’t think that is a tough horse to market because of its skills, I think its age is probably why it is harder to market. but that makes it a great horse for you because it is steady and calm – just what you need.

[FalseImpression]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229356]
FalseImpression

How dare you say that. I would never let a horse go to a kill buyer.

And wake up. I’m not a rich girl. This is the first horse I would own after 20 years of riding broken lesson horses, naughty horses, problem horses, private or sale horses. There are thousands of rich girls who own 2-3 horses, jump the crap out of them because all they want to do is show, and when that horse gets broken down, they get rid of it for a newer better model. I’ve ridden at many barns with girls like that.

And maybe you have a lot of land in Canada, but in major city suburbs, land is scarce and boarding around $3k.

I have leased horses and just plain ridden horses I’ve “learned with.” Now I want a horse that is at my level, mostly made, and something I can teach up in dressage.

Don’t you ever talk that way to me again. You don’t know me or my life circumstances.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you would not send him to a kb, but whomever you GIVE him too might!
And not a rich girl??? sorry, but I don’t know many people who would spend $50K on a horse for 6 months… and then??
NYC or Canada…
Sorry if I upset you… but this is the way you come across to me!

[Bogie]

The horse sounds like a bargain, given your requirements.

15 is not too old IF the horse is sound and requires minimal maintenance. As others have pointed out, it’s not the show record that’s the most important, it’s the horse’s ability to take a joke and do it’s job safely that will make it valuable.

I do think that having a 1-year expense account for a horse is a tad unrealistic. It can take longer to sell a horse than you anticipate, and giving one away is not a great guarantee of the horse’s future.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229498]

1. That’s the risk a horse owner/Lessor takes in leasing out a horse. Leasing is done all the time despite that risk and potentially unfortunate and unfavorable circumstances. It’s also part of what makes the financial side of the horse world go round.
2. That’s why, as a Lessee, I freely offer up riding credentials…who I’ve trained with in the past–certified trainers who sometimes are “R” judges, etc. I also let them know who the trainer is that I plan to ride under while leasing so they can call and check the trainer out. If they don’t, that’s not my fault.
3. Completely agree. (And I don’t like showing, so that’s a moot point to me.)[/QUOTE]

Given what you write in #2, why not have your pro find you the lease horse? After all, when leases happen-- perhaps as often as you say- they really are set up between people (usually professionals) who know one another well.

Yes, the HO signs an agreement with the lessee, but the care and management of the horse are done by another professional whom the HO or her trainer knows and trusts.

If I had a valuable horse and I didn’t see your trainer spear-heading your effort, I’d wonder if she was going to be an integral part of the horse’s management during the lease. If that wasn’t true, then merely the name of your trainer offered as “a credential” wouldn’t be assurance enough for me.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=mvp;8229979]
Given what you write in #2, why not have your pro find you the lease horse? After all, when leases happen-- perhaps as often as you say- they really are set up between people (usually professionals) who know one another well.

Yes, the HO signs an agreement with the lessee, but the care and management of the horse are done by another professional whom the HO or her trainer knows and trusts.

If I had a valuable horse and I didn’t see your trainer spear-heading your effort, I’d wonder if she was going to be an integral part of the horse’s management during the lease. If that wasn’t true, then merely the name of your trainer offered as “a credential” wouldn’t be assurance enough for me.[/QUOTE]

In this case, the pro has had lease horse boarded at their barn for months. Pro is working with top pro in nation who is acting as agent for someone who got the horse in a trade in.

In past leases, it has been easier just dealing straight with owners, no pros/trainers/agents middle men. It gets very convoluted with too many cooks in the kitchen and hard to figure out what really is the truth.

[Lucassb]

Perhaps this will be helpful: http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/horse-leases-what-you-need-to-know.aspx

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8229529]
Couldn’t ride it for the 3 months I had it. Still had to pay for boarding, farrier, vaccinations, etc. Turns out the owner was banned by the USEF this May for drugging another horse and is now not allowed to train, show, or set foot at sanctioned shows for 6 months. I get it. I really do. That was the risk I took as a Lessee. I got bit in the ass for trusting and not doing my homework. Very expensive lesson learned. But at the same token, that’s the gamble a Lessor takes as well, or no one would be leasing.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that horse was delivered to you unrideable because it was drugged? Why did you or your agent, keep the horse and continue with the lease?

I know it’s water under the bridge, but you have to separate out fraud/dishonesty from “inherent problems” built into leasing. Those are two different causes of unhappiness and getting bitten in the ass by one has nothing to do with the other.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8230549]
Perhaps this will be helpful: http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/horse-leases-what-you-need-to-know.aspx[/QUOTE]

That was helpful, though written from the perspective of protecting the Lessor, not the Lessee. For example-- and relevant to the OP-- it says nothing about insuring that the horse tried or advertised is the one delivered. The Lessee has a right to have a useful horse arrive at the beginning of the lease, after all.

Also, I didn’t know that modern convention asked folks to pay lease fees of up to 50% for “cheap” (under $50K) horses. Again, from a HO’s perspective, I think that’s great. But I would have thought that these horses were a less valuable commodity such that the lease fee (essentially insurance against loss of use or a pension payment for the horse) would have been lower, not higher, than that of a more valuable animal.

[Star_s_Ascent]

What keeps going through my head is-what’s it like to be able to pay 5 figures for a horse plus the upkeep in an expensive area and then be able to pretty much give it away at the end of a year? That’s a lot of money to put out and then for the most part throw away at the end of a year. Also if you don’t like to show then his show record isn’t that important. If you are trying to sell him for what you have in him then yes it would matter but if you are going to sell him for super cheap or give him away I don’t know that the person taking him will really care as much.

[mvp]

@ Star’s Ascent.

FWIW, this makes some sense to me, having lived in that NY/CT area. The costs of just keeping 'em is astronomical. That said, the standard of care and horsemanship is relatively high in comparison to other parts of the country. IMO, that comes from a long tradition of keeping show horses and the sheer cost of it. In other words, because of tradition or cost, folks tend not to own horses unless they are going to do it right (though I wish more TO was considered crucial).

To give away a useful, going jumper in that kind of environment isn’t the same proposition as what it is in an area like the one I live in now… lower standard of care and costs generally, less of a show horse tradition in horse management and a livestock auction 40 minutes down the road.

In general, I think the OP’s horse-- well-marketed-- would have better odds of getting to a great home, even if given away, where he is as opposed to some other part of the country. But the rub for me is the running out of money part. It can take time to find even the right give-away home and there really aren’t very many great super-cheap boarding options in that area. If you take the give-away horse somewhere else to save in board then you run into a horse community that-- by and large-- doesn’t have the same depth of knowledge.

Sorry to sound elitist…. just “shocked and awed” daily by the difference between what a backyard barn near North Salem, NY offered in the way of care and what you can find even in a professionally-run barn here in a modest part of Oregon. There’s your context. Sorry for the aside, but I did want all readers to take seriously the monthly costs that the OP is talking about.

[vxf111]

I agree that AS HE NOW IS the horse sounds like not a terribly difficult giveaway. But so much can happen between now and then. He can actually go lame, he can actually be injured, he can actually be diagnosed with a condition that requires difficult maintenance or makes him undesirable. His training can come undone (I know, I know, the OPs says she’s super competent and in a great program-- but sh*t happens under the best of circumstances). He can develop a difficult vice. The OP could get hurt, or laid off, or have a family emergency. The list goes on and on. It’s really rolling the dice with this horse’s life/future to take him on knowing the money’s going to run out and he will HAVE.TO.GO endstop-- no other options.

[Scribbler]

I’ve lost track of how much the horse is being leased or sold for at this point. Let’s say $20,000? Board is $3k a month, $36,000 a year. Plus of course farrier work, vet care, and saddle fitting/other assorted tack. So I’m going to say $60,000 for the next year, not including the actual saddle or the cost of lessons (which everyone needs, IMHO). After a year, the OP is going to need to rehome the horse promptly, and may not be able to recoup much or any of the purchase price.

When I divide $60,000 by 365 days in the year, I get a daily cost of $164, without lessons. Even on the East Coast, I think that for less, you could get into a good lesson program with some extra practice rides, five days a week, on horses of equivalent quality to the horse under discussion here. You would need to find a trainer that doesn’t run a “lesson factory” and who maybe only has a couple of students using each horse. This would also save the cost and trouble of buying tack and a saddle (a whole other costly experience).

I think it’s very risky to buy a horse planning on reselling or even rehoming after a year, unless you are an effective, disciplined pro trainer working with easily improved young prospects (ottb or green horses of a currently popular breed). Even then, you would need to buy cheap or free, and have low boarding costs, in order to turn a profit. And you would need to be clever about marketing the horse, taking it to shows, etc.

Granted, our market here is much cheaper than in the NYC area (sounds like NYC is over 3 times the cost for horses and for board). But I’ve tracked local horses I know on the sales listings go from $15,000 to $10,000 to $5,000 to “free lease, need gone before winter” (that one was a promising young jumper with a semi-pro trainer that went on to have a show career at lower levels, and was back on the market by his new owners as a 10 year old for $10,000, which is fair value around here). I know people who have picked up horses for $1 that sold last time around ( a year or so previous) for $60k.

Horses are a luxury good, plus each one is unique. A horse is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept. It’s like diamond engagement rings or art auctions, or Antiques Road Show on PBS. There’s the pride of saying that your horse, your ring, your Colonial sideboard, is “really” worth however much money, and then there’s the test of the open market.

Unlike jewelry, though, a horse can appreciate or depreciate in value quickly depending on how it is being trained (and every ride is training). If, after the year is up, the horse turns up “stiff” in a PPE or develops an annoying habit (balking, head tossing, bucking, etc.) then he might be hard to rehome even for cheap or free. Plus horses have huge maintenance costs (more even than sailboats) so it isn’t always easy to give away a horse, especially in an area with high boarding costs.

Anyhow, I don’t know the OP’s financial position, so I can’t really say what makes sense for her. For myself, as an adult amateur rider, schooling but not showing (like the OP), I wouldn’t pay $60,000 total to have sole use of a horse for a year, if I could only afford to do this for one year. I would stretch my budget by staying in some kind of shared use/shared cost arrangement.

Obviously the economics would be totally different for someone competing at high levels. From reading the COTH forums, that’s where it makes sense to pay these big leases for a competitive horse to move up the levels in hunter/jumpers.

[IPEsq]

A commodity such as a horse is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Things that may influence what a given person is willing to pay includes breed, age, vet record, looks, gender, size, amount of training, amount of experience at whatever thing is important to that person, show record, temperament, etc. etc.

I am in the camp of 1) OP needs to look at the bigger picture – objectively, look at the hypothetical horse suitable for OP. This will be one OP can give back or otherwise dispose of at the end of a year where the up front fee also fits into the budget. This is something you can guarantee with a lease–lease ends, horse goes back to owner. This is not something you can necessarily control with a purchase unless your intent is to abandon the horse somewhere. Things happen and you may not be able to ethically dispose of the horse in a timely manner even for a complete loss on your initial investment.

2. OP needs to wake up regarding the value of this particular horse and the difference in risk for the owner/seller on a sale vs lease. You cannot put out blanket statements like, horse has an abysmal show record so there is no way he can be worth more than $X. If there is SOMEONE out there who will pay $X or more, then the owners can hold out and try to find that person. They have no duty to sell him to you just because you say you want him despite his show record, for reduced price of course. There are people who won’t care about it and value other things more. I honestly don’t know why you care about it so much since you don’t want to show, except that it impacts your decision on value when looking at the horse for potential resale because in your opinion, the show record will kill all future marketing efforts. There is nothing wrong with this opinion–it just shows once again that purchasing this horse at any price seems to be not the right choice for you given the cost of care in your area. Maybe an even lower price could buy you some extra months of board, but the end result is that you still foresee a stopping point to your horse budget.

Lots of others have talked about the risks in leasing out a horse, and owners price the lease in a manner to try to mitigate those risks while also having horse off their payroll for a while. The lease fees are not necessarily free money in the bank. They eventually may just serve to offset the horse’s future care. And not everyone who owns a horse is comfortable leasing out, so no amount of money really makes a lease worth it.

You are not comfortable with a lease because you want more control. I’ve had full leases where I was completely responsible for horse’s care, including vet care. Some owners want to retain a say. This is all about the individual situation and how you can negotiate the contract. It is possible to find a lease where you and the owners can be happy and you also can stick to your long term budget.

If you cannot find such a lease, then take lessons, find someone to give you some free rides since you don’t want to show anyway, or some alternate arrangement, though you most likely won’t have any say on the day to day things with those horses.

[Star_s_Ascent]

MVP I just mean my husband would divorce me if I spent that kind of money on something that I was knowingly probably just going to give away in a year! We don’t have that kind of dispensable income! I was really surprised that here in Spokane I’m paying as much as I was in Ca at the more expensive barns I boarded at (which were by no means the fanciest barns, just the most expensive ones I have been to) I figured it would be a little cheaper up here!
I agree that the running out of money part is a concern. What happens to the horse when the money is gone but the horse is still there? Does it then become a desperate need to get rid of the horse to where any home will do?

[QUOTE=mvp;8230739]
@ Star’s Ascent.

FWIW, this makes some sense to me, having lived in that NY/CT area. The costs of just keeping 'em is astronomical. That said, the standard of care and horsemanship is relatively high in comparison to other parts of the country. IMO, that comes from a long tradition of keeping show horses and the sheer cost of it. In other words, because of tradition or cost, folks tend not to own horses unless they are going to do it right (though I wish more TO was considered crucial).

To give away a useful, going jumper in that kind of environment isn’t the same proposition as what it is in an area like the one I live in now… lower standard of care and costs generally, less of a show horse tradition in horse management and a livestock auction 40 minutes down the road.

In general, I think the OP’s horse-- well-marketed-- would have better odds of getting to a great home, even if given away, where he is as opposed to some other part of the country. But the rub for me is the running out of money part. It can take time to find even the right give-away home and there really aren’t very many great super-cheap boarding options in that area. If you take the give-away horse somewhere else to save in board then you run into a horse community that-- by and large-- doesn’t have the same depth of knowledge.

Sorry to sound elitist…. just “shocked and awed” daily by the difference between what a backyard barn near North Salem, NY offered in the way of care and what you can find even in a professionally-run barn here in a modest part of Oregon. There’s your context. Sorry for the aside, but I did want all readers to take seriously the monthly costs that the OP is talking about.[/QUOTE]

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Star’s Ascent;8231622]
I was really surprised that here in Spokane I’m paying as much as I was in Ca at the more expensive barns I boarded at (which were by no means the fanciest barns, just the most expensive ones I have been to) I figured it would be a little cheaper up here![/QUOTE]

A bit way OT, so the rest of you guys can ignore this post.

Yeah, a friend of mine has a dressage guru up in Spokane and has told me things are more expensive. Not to diss Spokane (and I have never been there), but looking at it’s location on a map, I would not have thought that board would be so expensive. Where do y’all work that you can pay California prices keeping horses at the back of Washington State?

[dags]

I’d just like to chime back in, since the OP used the EHJ site as reasoning for why mediocre show results should automatically result in a drastic price reduction.

While we love it when we get to post wins, championships & year end awards for a sale horse the primary reason we post all those results is to show the horse has been out and doing it’s job. Not sitting at home, potentially on a lameness lay-up or addressing a serious behavioral issue, but out jumping around, soundly and safely.

There are a lot of horses (and riders) out there that may never win a blue ribbon. But they show up, jump their hearts out, and everyone lives to compete another day. While everyone would love to buy “the winner” when it comes down to budget it turns out most folks just need one that is sound enough to attend horse shows and sane enough not to lose its $hit all over its junior or amateur rider. Those traits are still worth a good deal of money.

[AmmyByNature]

I wouldn’t expect the sort of horse the OP describes to have a winning record. A good solid, move-up sort of citizen ridden by a bunch of people in a big trainer’s program? I wouldn’t expect that sort of horse to have even one win.

That’s the horse you lease your children’s hunter kid for a month to see if she wants to buy her own jumper and try both rings.

It’s the horse you put your aspiring big eq kid on to jump around the 3’6" while they’re looking for their own horse.

It’s the horse you lease to your old friend who is coming in to visit you for a couple weeks and wants to have a little fun on something safe at a horse show while handing out with you. (Can you tell I’ve done this? Had exactly the same sort of horse. Didn’t win a thing. Had a marvelous time!)

That’s not a horse that is supposed to have a winning record. For a horse like that, a winning record is irrelevant.

What it does show, though, is that the horse is a good, solid, sound, going-around sort of horse who is in training and is fit and working.

I fail to understand how the OP, who has apparently had lots of experience with horses ans show records, fails to see that point.