Ours is 8, so below your age range, and big boned/feathery, while still typey :). He was bred by Proud Meadows, by the way.
[QUOTE=thatmoody;4114264]
Ours is 8, so below your age range, and big boned/feathery, while still typey :). He was bred by Proud Meadows, by the way.[/QUOTE]
BIG smiles there! I don’t often see or hear of friesians in the german registry… but the few I do know of do seem to be maintaining their friesian type moreso than friesians of the dutch registry! I haven’t been to a FPZV keuring or stallion test…but am told it is very different from the dutch… they have always judged the canter…and they must also jump! Yet, these horses have substance and quality gates… I think I need to follow the german friesian registry more closely! Maybe the german registry will be the ‘savior’ of what I consider ‘friesian’…
I know this is considered blasphemy among the Friesianistas, but might there be some outcrossing to improve the breed? I hear because of the relatively small gene pool, that Friesian hearts are smallish. (I’m talking the physical heart, not the quality of “heart”, which I think they have in abundance.)
I also wonder if this is the reason you are seeing less feathering? I have not seen a “non-hairy” Friesian, just taking your word for it. Might the lighter feathering be due to either a) the small gene pool/linebreeding or b) a black WB in the woodpile??
For a while, the TB book was left open to Arabs to improve and develop the breed. Would something like that be done to strengthen Friesians? I need some education here!
I, too, am of two minds when it comes to preserving the “purity” of the Friesian breed. Ours has several hereditary problems (their abdominal walls tend to be thinner than normal, so in addition to the increased risk of colic, they are more prone to herniate after colic surgery, which happened to our boy). They also tend towards skin issues, anhydrosis, and yes, conditioning them can be a challenge as they tend to have proportionally small hearts.
So yes, I want to see the breed preserved, but it would be lovely if this could be done while paying attention to the health issues, as well.
Oh, and yes, the FPVZ does judge canter, and our boy scored an 8 on his, and earned his Ster. We aren’t breeding him, btw, because of his hernia (vet deems it inadvisable). Maybe in the future I will look into ground collection, as I would love to have a baby by him, although I believe I would probably look into a friesian X (TB mare would be my choice, sorry, just because I believe that would address some of the health/conformation issues I see) :).
[QUOTE=pattir7;4114243]
It’s interesting you say that… How is it though that a shire can remain a shire since the beginning of their breed through the various market demands…but a friesian must be warped to whatever the market is of the day?[/QUOTE]
At the low point in Shire history, after WWII, the breed went from over 500,000 to 5000. A low but sustainable number. Their numbers were steady during the early 1900’s for the simple reason of “supply and demand”. Big strong horses were needed for agriculture and pulling war supplies. At the time, Friesians were much lighter. There was very little demand for them. Their number went down to 34 mares and 3 stallions in 1916. If they didn’t change the breed, it would have gone extinct. I doubt the FPS was happy about it, but being nostalgic wasn’t going to put food on the table of horse breeders. Before the infusion of Oldenburg blood into the breed, they were lighter, fancy trotters. The Oldenburgs of that time were NOTHING like they are today. They were heavy carriage horses – the heaviest of the Warmbloods in Germany. They were also largely black at the time, as that was what people wanted. Look at the pictures of these early 1900’s Oldenburgs:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/edelknabe3
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/wittelsbacher
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ruthard
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/erbgraf
And scroll down on this link for a picture of the Friesian stallion Alva 113 from around 1910:
http://saconycreeksporthorses.com/The%20Past.html
I wouldn’t call him “heavily feathered”. Also, at the bottom of the page on that link, there are a few pics of some heavier Friesians from the 60’s & 70’s. More breeders are going for the “sport type” because those are the ones that sell better. Plus that type IS the “original Friesian”. Even then (and I believe, unfortunately) the FPS is NOT going outside the breed in order to bring it back to it’s lighter phenotype. There’s 40,000 Friesians worldwide today, up from 37 total only 93 years ago. While it’s likely true that a handful of Oldenburg mares helped to establish new mare lines, that STILL makes for a tiny and inbred gene pool. Hence the numerous genetic problems in the breed. Additionally, many of those problems became even more widely spread when it was found that one of the most popular (due to his extreme hairiness) Friesian stallions of all, Oege 267 carried some of these problems!
I see no sin in adapting a breed to what the market demands. The Warmbloods certainly did! It’s not feasible to continue to breed an animal the same way for nostalgic purposes, and be unable to sell them. If that concept made sense, we’d all still be driving Model T’s – or even driving horse & buggies!
Judy
So the remaining Friesians in 1916 WERE outcrossed with Oldenburgs?
I’ll be darned. Man, those old style Oldenburgs were Fugly! (Just my opinion!)
What’s the Friesian Registry’s current stand on outcrosses?
The purebred registries will not allow outcrosses into their registries.
The FPS concedes that Friesians were crossed with Oldenburgs during the first half of the century in order to make the breed heavier and more suitable for agricultural work.
An interesting note in the often published “Friesian Timeline” is that, in 1916, there were only 34 registered mares. And in 1918, that number increased to 166. This would be physically impossible without having subsequently registering non pure mares. Additionally, that same timeline states that they stopped registering “brown” mares in 1918. Hmmm. Probably wasn’t a good idea to be removing genes from the fragile pool because of color…
There are two European Friesian registries, one German based (FPZV), one Dutch based (FPS). There is much talk of the EU merging those two registries. Overseas, the registries do allow their STALLIONS to cross breed, however, the mares must breed only to purebred stallions (which makes sense when trying to preserve a rare breed). In the US, we have FHANA which is the secretarial branch of the Dutch registry, and adopts the Dutch rules and sets some of their own standards and rules which include NO CROSS BREEDING at all. They DNA test to ensure purity, so I doubt there is any ‘behind the shed’ outcrossing going on in that registry.
The US branch of the German registry (FPZV USA), and an off-shoot of that registry (now totally independent of FPZV), FHS, do still allow the stallions to cross breed, in fact, many of those stallions do most of their breeding to non-Friesian mares. The German registry is also the registry that requires stallions to be approved through a performance process similar to Warmbloods - a 50 day test, which includes judging their potential at dressage (yes, all three gaits:yes:), driving, and jumping (ever seen a Friesian jump:lol:). The jumping phase is mostly looking at their trainability and willingness, the jumps are very low cross country jumps.
The Dutch registry seems to be the largest and strongest, hence the abhorrance of cross breeding by most Friesian owners. However, there are some pretty dedicated and educated cross breeders focusing on trying to maintain some of the characteristics of the Friesian (especially their wonderful, willing mind), while building better stamina, longevity, and athleticism. Some of these cross breeders have been doing it for 15 years and even more - the population is small, but steadily growing. And some of those outcrosses do maintain much of the Baroque look and type.
In Europe, there are some outcrossing registries, including a small registry that focuses on infusing a bit of Arabian into the Friesian blood - they call them Arabo Friesians. The have some multi-generation crosses that are almost pure Friesian! And there are some breeders who have focused on breeding Dutch WB lines into the Friesian - ocassionally we see one imported into the US.
It is rather fascinating when you start looking at the history of breeds, especially the Baroque breeds that have been around for SO LONG!
Interesting!
I have one student with a Friesian/Morgan cross and a younger Friesian/TB cross. The F/M is a lovely fellow with a lot of “try”. He’s very smart. All black, but with a dab of white on his right rear heel. The F/TB is bay and while still young, is rangier.
I admire the breed (my coach is riding one for a client, a purebred, also very nice) but do worry about the genetic problems as noted in this thread. Could it be that outcrossing would save the breed? Perhaps allow the “almost pure” crossbreds into the registries (oh, say at least 7/8 or 15/16ths) to help strengthen and preserve the breed? After all, it was done back in the early 1900’s with some (IMO!) dang Fugly Oldenburgs.
I know the breed is popular, don’t have any idea how many there are in the world, but have the impression that the gene pool is wide but not very deep. (Or would that be deep but not very wide?)
It wouldn’t be the first time outcrossing was done to “help” a breed. Quarter Horses and Appaloosas were improved and/or sustained by outcrossing. Lots of Arab and TB infused into the Warmblood breeds keep them from getting heavier and heavier. I heard once that WB hearts also get “small” without periodic doses of TB or Arab blood.
I suppose it is out of the question for the registries to consider such an idea.
Some of the older “foundation” Morgan lines could do the Friesian breed a lot of good IMHO. And blacks are fairly common in the breed. One would, of course, get smaller size and a little more hotness in a Morgan cross, as well as, well, more smarts! (Which is not necessarily a good thing!)
Friesians really aren’t that rare anymore. I think the stringent “no cross” policy is outdated, and most definitely political in nature. Stallion owners don’t want the competition for mares, and many stallion owners are very involved with the policy decisions of the registry.
I will not disagree that today’s Friesian looks different from what it did even ten years ago. My mom and I ordered this video showing clips of all the previous stallion shows over the last 15 years and I couldn’t believe the change in the horses. Now, as a dressage rider and a Friesian enthusiast and breeder, I see it as a positive change…the horses are much more modern, the hind legs are starting to become useful (still quite a ways to go!), the loins actually look fuctional for a riding horse (many of the older Friesians could not hold up to being ridden with those horrid loins and exceedingly long backs), the front leg is now longer giving us a more uphill horse. So yes, there has been a significant change in type from that of a heavier, draftier pulling horse to a more suitable riding horse.
The KFPS has stated in it’s breeding goals that it aims to produce a riding horse for dressage. If this is the case, one cannot continue to breed the Friesians of the past, the big clunky heavy ones who’s gaits and conformation are not at all geared at riding sport. It is impossible.
And why do I see this change in type as acceptable? Well, for me, beauty is as beauty does!! I don’t want a useless horse no matter how it looks and the very heavy, old style Friesians are of no use unless you just want to look at them and perhaps plow your feilds. So no it doesn’t make sense in these days to put the breed in that direction. They make lovely riding horses and this IS where the market is so I say why not? For a breed to survive they MUST have a specific use otherwise we have gypsy vanner situation. We also must remember why they almost went extict and that is becase they came to have no use as a purebred horse.
In regards to the use of the closed studbook regulations of the KFPS, well, I have gone back and forth. At first I totally agreed with the concept of keeping the books closed, of preserving the breed and of course, the type that makes the Friesian horse very distinguishable and unique. However, the more I immerse myself in breeding Hanoverians, the more I am siding towards the use of bringing in outside blood. Why? Well, first of all, as some others here have mentioned, the breed is so highly inbred that they have very little vigour, they have reduced lifespans, many more health problems and as is typical with high levels of inbreeding, an overall reduced fertility. So at the end of the day, a breeder has to ask what is most important? The health and longevity of the breed or type? Function or type?? And in all honesty, I do think there is a way to do it without completely losing the type. I have seen a # of Arabo Friesians now that look as typey as any other purebred out there. This is especially possible if one thinks in generations (as is ALWAYS the policy when trying to bring in outside blood for type!).
In a somewhat comparable note, the trakehnher horse is one that has traditionally shunned an open studbook in an attempt to have the most beautiful horse. At this they have been successful as they have been utilized now and in the past quite frequently in Hannover especially as type improvers (ie Hohenstein, Caprimond, Abglanz ect) but the performance ability of the breed has suffered. They once had some of the best competative horses around but once the Europeans figured out the value of improvement blood, the Trakehner got left behind. Of course, this is not totally comparable to Friesians as the Traks do allow some TB and Arab blood so as to keep the vigour.
I realize that the KFPS is probably not looking to create the worlds best sport breed, so obviously the need to utilize improvement blood for this sake is not as strong as it is in some of the other registries however, what should motivate them is the loss of vigour within the breed.
As many of you know- I have a Friesian /Saddlebred cross- a Georgian Grande - who is quite a nice dressage horse. I love his bling and brio - I love his good mind- his amazing intelligence and as a amateur rider- he is the incarnation of what I wanted. Ridable, smart, trainable, healthy and he has the best looks you could hope for with the best gaits. Will he go to FEI? I don’t know - I think it would be up to me- but not to him…as his confo and gaits and mind are right on. He has plenty of hair (what a PIA!!!) and feathers…(I shave them off…don’t kill me please…) and he has the Friesian heart butt…but lots of push under…so quite good for what I want to do with him…
He can be very explosive and thus sometimes maybe more than what one would like…but he’s young still and surely will grow out of it.
After having lots of WBs if you asked me what would I buy again…I’d say this kind for me- all the way! The fun, the smiles, the laughter and the dance are easy with this horse…you still have to ride correctly but it’s soooo much more fun!
[QUOTE=jdeboer01;4114525]
Additionally, many of those problems became even more widely spread when it was found that one of the most popular (due to his extreme hairiness) Friesian stallions of all, Oege 267 carried some of these problems!
I see no sin in adapting a breed to what the market demands. The Warmbloods certainly did! It’s not feasible to continue to breed an animal the same way for nostalgic purposes, and be unable to sell them. If that concept made sense, we’d all still be driving Model T’s – or even driving horse & buggies!
Judy[/QUOTE]
I am interested to hear what problems Oege 267 carried as he is my boy’s sire. My boy did not get the hair in his mane or tail…it all went to his feet! Regardless, I am curious what problems Oege 267 carried if you could elaborate some…
I disagree that friesians need to be adapted to the extremes they are being adapted. It is not necessary to warp their breed type to become FEI horses for the market. How many of us are FEI riders? Really? There is a market for a mid level dressage friesian…in fact, I’d say 90% of the market are amateur mid level riders even though many think they need an FEI horse…so many folks are ‘overhorsed’ and would be suited just fine with a horse of reasonable talent and a gentle temperament/mind. My guy is all that… but no, he will not be an FEI horse anymore than I will be an FEI rider…maybe if I had gotten him as a youngin, but not now.
I don’t understand why the breed needs to be warped to compete with the warmbloods… I say, let them have it. I don’t want one. Different strokes for different folks. Most nice ones would be too much horse for me and not nearly as forgiving…not to mention, my friesian is more like a big puppy dog than a horse… sweet as the day is long. I love that in him…and most friesians I meet…
[QUOTE=pattir7;4115349]
Most nice ones would be too much horse for me and not nearly as forgiving…not to mention, my friesian is more like a big puppy dog than a horse… sweet as the day is long. I love that in him…and most friesians I meet…[/QUOTE]
Ahhh, that sums up what I love about the breed most! The mind - until you experience the mind, you can’t understand the appeal of the Baroque horse. When I talk to my Andalusian loving friends, they also rave about the people oriented personality!
I’ll admit, I’m not a purist - the hair leaves me cold - I do shave feathers, and have been known to roach a mane or two:eek: Although I love a nice tail:D But the personality and the soul in their eyes - sometimes I do think Friesians are part human!
I’m one of those who cross breeds, and so far, I’m finding the crosses retain a good part of that personality, the gentle nature, the forgiving personality, the love of people. I do think some careful multi-generational crossing might help the breed, and there are some who have experimented with that, both in the US and overseas. But when you get back to the “almost purebred”, it seems some of those problems resurface (more prone to torsion colic, and repro weaknesses. It would be a long term project. And in reality, it seems all breeds have their issues - be it HYPP, Navicular, OCD, weak hoofs, cataracts, lordosis, whatever, it seems every breed has something it is more prone to:no: Of course, the smaller the genetic pool, the closer to the surface those problems rise.
Oege was now known to be a carrier of the recessive genes for both dwarfism and hydrocephalus (water head). Obviously, your horse was not affected by either of these conditions. However, he could have inherited a single copy of either or both recessives, and therefore be a carrier. Unless you were going to breed purebred Friesians with him (did you say he is a stallion?) it’s not something to worry about. Negative recessive traits are harmless unless they are paired with the same recessive genes in a mare. It is only then that they manifest themselves. Unfortunately, with Friesians, the gene pool is so small that many mares carry the same negative recessives, so there is a risk of getting deformed or aborted foals.
I disagree that Friesians are being adapted to any extreme. While you can see it, I don’t think the average lay person would notice much of a difference. Also, because of the closed and tiny gene pool, it is nearly impossible to drastically change anything about them. If you’re a fan of the older, heavier type, I don’t think you’re going to have a tough time finding one that you like.
Yes, Friesian’s temperaments are wonderful. Which is why they attract many amateurs. But because they are not built for dressage (yet are promoted for it) they can be a challenge to condition and train. In this sense, they are not the best choice for an amateur. So it’s a catch 22. Every horse breeder wants their horses and buyers to be successful at their discipline of choice. But with purebred Friesians, there is certainly a disadvantage.
[QUOTE=jdeboer01;4115514]
Oege was now known to be a carrier of the recessive genes for both dwarfism and hydrocephalus (water head). Obviously, your horse was not affected by either of these conditions. However, he could have inherited a single copy of either or both recessives, and therefore be a carrier. Unless you were going to breed purebred Friesians with him (did you say he is a stallion?) it’s not something to worry about. Negative recessive traits are harmless unless they are paired with the same recessive genes in a mare. It is only then that they manifest themselves. Unfortunately, with Friesians, the gene pool is so small that many mares carry the same negative recessives, so there is a risk of getting deformed or aborted foals.[/QUOTE]
Ah…ok… my boy is one of 25 star geldings that Oege produced. So he can’t pass any of this on if he did have it. In the new point system for approved stallions, Oege is number one with some 2,000+ points for the quality offspring he produced. Twice as many as number two on the list (whom I forget who that is). The top preferent stallion of all time… and some deceased stallions even got preferent status with this new system. I think that was awesome. But, Oege was used a lot…and if he had these recessive genes (which I understand all too well), well… they are widespread… don’t quite know the answer to that… I’m not all that thrilled to start introducing other breeds into the mix cause the first thing that goes in a crossbreed is the feathers… totally GONE in one generation. The friesian doesn’t seem to be prepotent when crossbreeding…they seem to disappear quickly. The arabo friesians look good…but the ones I see have been bred back to pure friesian enough times that they are something like 90+% friesian again. I’d like to see more stallions get through the testing… and at least make better use of the existing gene pool than limit it so severely on the stallion side… just my .02 worth…
I’m not so sure on this. I do think the average layperson would be able to tell the difference between the horse in ladyhawke and the friesian stallions of today. And for me, I don’t want just heavier… I also want well built… built uphill, sufficient length of front legs, etc… when some people think ‘older’ type… they think short and squat… I’d like to see them retain the substance but have better conformation. It is possible! They do exist…but they are few and far between…
I agree with you here. My boy’s temperament is unsurpassed… but he is not the easiest horse to ride… and I don’t always feel ‘successful’. But… I am not after high scores… I wanted a horse I could enjoy… that could do dressage (even if it isn’t as easy for me)… that I could even pony around my 8 year old daughter on… that will forgive my mistakes… and that loved me back. I have all that and then some… and wouldn’t trade that for anything…
I don’t have a problem with the crosses when they are bred right it’s just that there are more bad than good ones. I don’t think they lose the Friesian characteristics or feathers. Here are two super popular Friesian Sporthorse crosses, the first one has plenty of feather the second one I don’t know about feather but he still looks more Friesian to me than anything else. It’s got to be easier to get a more sport Friesian type by good crossing than by using the existing pure bred gene pool.
First of all, I think if you want to retain the Friesian type while introducing new blood, you do not think in terms of Friesian crosses, you do not think in terms of F1 generations as being the end result! If you do it the right way, the type could still be retained whilst adding new vigour to the breed.
If you look at the Hanoverian verband(I am just using it as an example, but there are others) they wanted to introduce more type into their breed after the war, but they wanted to retain the athleticism and mind that their horses are known for. They did this by looking for very select “improvement” sires and then thought in terms of generations ie Lauries Crusador xx . When they first introduced him they never in a million years thought that successful F1 crosses would occur, they thought that they could get some blood into the damlines and then go from there, hoping for a nice f2 or f3 cross.
I think this is what has been done with the Arabo Friesian…and if you look at this website, it is very obvious that these horses are Friesian.
http://www.friesianhorsesociety.citymaker.com/page/page/5028292.htm
I am not neccisarily advocating just crossing them with whatever and then expecting that cross to be what I want. Most F1 Friesian crosses are crap, from what I have seen, nor do they resemble their Friesian heritage. I would suggest a program like Jdeboer’s where she is still planning on keeping predominant Friesian blood and is only using homozygous dark warmblood stallions and she is clearly thinking in generations. I wouldn’t be suprised if down the road she gets something that looks very purebred but with the atheleticism of the WB.
And Patir, with all do respect, even if this loss of type does occur…can you say that it isn’t worth the health of the breed? Lack of leg hair or genetic defects gallore? I dunno, to me its a no brainer.
On a related note, has anyone seen the news about Heinse? He died of colic a few days ago. How many has Iron Springs lost now? Like five and they havent even been into friesians for long. I think they have lost less of their WB stallions over all the years they have had them. It isn’t normal.
