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How popular are baroque horses in dressage today?

Dressage
#41

[QUOTE=Donella;4118898]
Most F1 Friesian crosses are crap, from what I have seen, nor do they resemble their Friesian heritage. .[/QUOTE]

Oh, I wouldn’t say most are crap because they are F-1 crosses. Take a look at Cadence (he’s on my website), or Nico, or Windsong, or Graceful Times, or Ducati CH, or…, I could go on and on naming nice, well bred, first generation crosses, many of whom are venturing into the FEI show ring. Poor quality comes from the quality of the parents - you need to start with a nice quality mare and stallion (hmmm, just like any breeding program) to have better odds of nice horses. Not everyone does that. Not everyone understands which Friesian lines cross well, which are more sport oriented, etc.

But you are right, most F-1 crosses lose some of the Friesian characteristics, especially the feathering (although Nico and Cadence both have feathering - I shave Cadence’s legs regularly). However, you often retain that wonderful mind, and that Baroque presence. Now, when you get to about 75% Friesian blood, SOME of the crosses end up looking pretty Friesian, including the feathers, others still look pretty sporty. I’ve got a couple pictured on my website under Cadence’s offspring (http://www.mysticoakranch.com/ourstallions/cadencesoffspring.html)- he’s got a few 3/4 Friesian offspring. But at 75% Friesian, you still aren’t consistently getting the “Friesian look and hair”. I have seen a few 93% Friesians (and many of those Arabo Friesians are in that category), and they start looking like purebreds.

Most Friesian cross breeders are not attempting to recreate the Friesian breed, they are trying to breed a nice sport horse/riding horse!

#42

I shouldn’t have said most, but there are more that look like some weird amalgamation of parts than there are those who look quality. Very few people who breed these crosses think like you do , or use quality, sport based mares. If you do a search on sales sites you do see alot of bizarre crosses and obviously not so nice offspring. That is why I said “most”…though I do understand the reason for it.

#43

I think you see a lot of mediocre Friesians crosses because of the use of mediocre parents, not bc of the breeds used. Since the best stallions aren’t allowed to outcross it’s the non licensed ones who do am most of them have big flaws. There was a lovely stallion in my area, total package but happened to be owned by a person who didn’t get him licensed or try to. He had excellent offspring when paired with quality mares, and even improved on some truly fugly mares.

I think people get too hyped over purity. I would love to see Friesian breeders follow the WB route of picking outcrosses to improve. Especially for genetic reasons, as with a stronger heart to help them get a second wind.

#44

[QUOTE=Donella;4119318]
I shouldn’t have said most, but there are more that look like some weird amalgamation of parts than there are those who look quality. Very few people who breed these crosses think like you do , or use quality, sport based mares. If you do a search on sales sites you do see alot of bizarre crosses and obviously not so nice offspring. That is why I said “most”…though I do understand the reason for it.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I don’t disagree, some of them are rather fugly, especially when you get several different breeds crossed in there, and don’t use quality parents. But I’ve seen some weird mixed up looking Warmbloods too (Hanoverian seems the most consistent in quality, RPSI the most inconsistent, and amazingly, Dutch not far behind it, but with a higher range, from fancy to fugly). And plenty of other breeds (I know someone with a purebred ARABIAN that is weird and fugly, and generally, I think of Arabians as a PRETTY breed:eek:). Friesian crosses don’t have a special corner on the market in this area!

But, also remember, not all Friesian cross breeders are breeding sport horses - because they throw such a gentle temperment, many people are breeding for nice family horses, pleasure horses, and even gaited pleasure horses. So to us, they may seem weird, but to their owners, they are perfect - great minds, sturdy horses, lots of hair, and lots of personality.

I just don’t see breeding F-2s as making a better product - if you breed a mixed up amagalmation of horse parts to a mixed up amalgamation of horse parts, odds are you get… Well you know. Like any other breeding program, it is about breeding for quality and understanding what you are breeding. There are some really high quality cross breeding programs - not focused on creating a new breed, not focused on creating a “faux Friesian”, but concentrating on breeding a nice sport horse with a great mind.

Then there are a few breeders that are trying to create a new Friesian type horse - Arabo has been quite succesful with their horses. It will be interesting in a few generations to see what Jdboer gets with the infusion of WB lines. But that is many years out. There are a few breeders in Holland that are also breeding Friesian/WB crosses - I know of one recently imported that is 93% Friesian. I think the trick for the F-2 crosses is to be careful not to introduce too many different breeds and types into the mix. For example, Arabo infused some Arab blood - nothing else. No Tbred, no Saddlebred, no Warmblood. And only limited Arab lines. But I’m also afraid they’ve limited their genetic pool, which is what is hurting the Friesian breed to start with! And, when you talk to some of the owners of the “mostly Friesians” - they are experiencing many of the problems of the purebreds - repro difficulties, torsion colic, etc :no:

To improve the health of the Friesian breed, I would hope that they would simply ease up on stallion approval, or re-open the B-Book in North America, allowing more purebred lines! I don’t want to see the Friesian breed recreated (although I do appreciate some of the modernization that has helped move back to a riding type horse), I want to see its genetic pool widened, more approved stallions!

#45

[QUOTE=FriesianX;4119242]

Most Friesian cross breeders are not attempting to recreate the Friesian breed, they are trying to breed a nice sport horse/riding horse![/QUOTE]

Why ?

#46

Breeding quality Friesian Sporthorses has less to do with how many breeds are involved or how many generations, and has more to do with choosing quality horses and logical breeds and crossing them with quality Friesians / Friesian Sporthorses.

Breeding for generations is wise because each generation helps to lock in traits, and reduces the chances for throwbacks, but there are some nice F1’s also.

If you look at some of the nicest and most successful Friesian crosses, you’ll see they’ve got one significant thing in common – they are usually Friesians crossed with logical, proven sport breeds like Warmbloods and Thoroughbreds, or perhaps with a little Saddlebred, which also works nicely.

Nico is Friesian/Dutch. Ducati CH (also the first known Friesian Sporthorse to compete at Grand Prix level dressage) is a 2nd generation Friesian/TB. Lexington (a young stallion, but already very successful at dressage) is Friesian/TB. Windsong is Friesian/Wbld. Sabine’s horse is also quite nice, and is Friesian/Saddlebred. Beau (international driving horse) is Friesian/Wbld. Locally there is also another nice young up-and-coming stallion who is Friesian/Wbld, and there is also a Nico offspring which is starting to show around here who is very nice, he’s a second generation Friesian/Wbld. Jdeboer’s horses are also going to be very nice, even as youngsters you can already see the quality, and she’s also using Friesian/Wbld. Some other nice examples can be found here on this page and also here (scroll down for more photos.)

The reason so many F1 Friesian crosses are “fugly” is as someone else said, they are often not from quality parents, and they are often not from logical breeds. Crossing a low quality Friesian with a breed like a QH or a Tennessee Walking Horse or some other non-sport breed is going to be far less likely to be successful, than crossing a quality Friesian with a nice TB or Warmblood or Friesian Sporthorse. Crossbreeding Friesians is somewhat in it’s infancy here (especially compared to the rich histories of other breeds) and there has been a serious learning curve, as people sort out what crosses work, what crosses don’t work, and face the reality that a Friesian stallion isn’t going to magically overcome a laundry list of faults in a fugly mare.

It’s also a common misconception that because FHANA doesn’t allow crossbreeding, the only option is fugly stallions. This isn’t true, as the FPZV allows stallions to crossbreed, and there are some very nice FPZV stallions to choose from. Eeltsje is a personal favorite of mine, and one I plan to use in the next year or two in my own program, he’s FPZV approved, and was already competing at FEI as a 7YO. The Proud Meadows stallions can also be used for crossbreeding. So there really are nice Friesian stallions out there for crossbreeding.

As to why would anyone want to crossbreed a Friesian to create a horse for sport? When it’s done well you often get the expressive movement, beauty, charisma, bone, and temperament of the Friesian, and the increased athleticism and stamina of breeds such as the Warmblood or Thoroughbred, with the added benefit of hybrid vigor, a bigger gene pool, improved ability for sport, and also aiming for improvement in more specific areas such as the canter, and elasticity, making the Friesian Sporthorse a perfect choice for someone who wants to blend the best of both worlds. There are characteristics the Friesian brings to the equation which can’t be matched in any other breed.

P.S. Lexington doesn’t appear to have feathers or a long mane because his feathers are shaved off and his mane is pulled.:wink:

#47

[QUOTE=FriesianX;4119668]
There are a few breeders in Holland that are also breeding Friesian/WB crosses - I know of one recently imported that is 93% Friesian.[/QUOTE]

The only ones I’m aware of are the ones producing pinto Friesians, and have a U.S. connection. If there are others, I’d love to learn more about them. Do you have website links?

I’m shooting for 15%-25% improvement blood. What will ultimately determine the number, however, will be quality of the horses themselves and their resemblance to the Friesian.

This would not work. Whether easing stallion approval, or opening the B-Book, these horses are all still from the same gene pool. B-Book Friesians do not add new blood, and cannot improve the health of the breed.

My 2009 foals have arrived. I have a gorgeous filly by Donatelli (Donnerhall x Pik Bube)out of my FPS mare Maggie, and a handsome colt by Rubin Magic (Rubinstein x Karon – full brother to Rosenthal) out of my FPS mare Wanda. Both foals are solid black. There are many pictures on my website, if anyone’s interested in seeing these F1 crosses. :slight_smile:

#48

I lost all my links (and hard drive) a few weeks back. And unfortunately, google searches don’t work without knowing the proper Dutch words, but a few of the stallions that came from overseas include Nico, Willem (he may still be in Holland), and Rooster. I looked at a youngster several years ago through an importer, which is where I found out about the overseas breeding programs. And yes, most seem to be focused on using Samber (pinto Dutch WB lines). It is essentially creating a mostly Friesian horse with some pinto color and some increased athleticism.

#49

Responding to the OP

I just came back from a moderately large-sized dressage show in Albuquerque. I saw one Friesian, a few Lippizans, and quite a few VERY cute ponies including a Haflinger and a Welsh. I also saw a few “old style” Dutch WBs that I drooled over (very heavy drafty looking beasties with soft elastic movement), and quite a few of your more modern WB types.

Based on what I saw of the judges’ scores, most of the horses that did not have your typical WB elastic “swingy” movement did not score above 60%. I do believe that most horses can be trained correctly to do dressage well, but some horses will never have that “wow” movement. If you want to be competitive in dressage, proper training will only take you so far and then your horse has to have something extra. Hence, why there seems to be a bias against baroque breeds in the upper levels. People like Sabine Shut-Kerry and other BNTs have the best of the best to ride PLUS a good name and solid reputation to help “further” the horse along.

On a side note: I don’t know much about Friesians, but I have been around a few and seen many at shows. 17 years ago when I first started showing dressage on my now, very old mare I was consistently counted off for her “knee action” in the canter and “sewing machine” trot. She is 1/2 Irish Draught. I don’t understand how Friesians can do well when they move in a very similar fashion. Perhaps times have changed because my gelding has some of that knee action (he is 1/4 ID) and the judges never said anything negative. In fact, most of the negative comments were “not enough elasticity” further imprinting that proper training, correct riding, and consistency are not going to be enough to make up the difference if natural elasticity is not there.

#50

[QUOTE=Donella;4118898]

And Patir, with all do respect, even if this loss of type does occur…can you say that it isn’t worth the health of the breed? Lack of leg hair or genetic defects gallore? I dunno, to me its a no brainer.[/QUOTE]

The friesian gene pool is what it is. It isn’t going to get bigger unless they bring in another breed…which is a whole nother discussion…and I am not necessarily against it… just that in doing so, they don’t lose what is a friesian. What I am against is their selection of lighter and lighter stallions as their breeding stallions…they are weeding out anything with any substance in favor of a lighter horse… and by lighter, I mean in the league of a TB…and that is not friesian. Friesians shouldn’t be draft horses…but they shouldn’t be race horses either. That’s what I’m getting at… and as a side result, yeah, they are also losing the hair…

No, it isn’t normal…not even amongst friesians…but that is all I will say on that…

#51

[QUOTE=FriesianX;4119668]

To improve the health of the Friesian breed, I would hope that they would simply ease up on stallion approval, or re-open the B-Book in North America, allowing more purebred lines! I don’t want to see the Friesian breed recreated (although I do appreciate some of the modernization that has helped move back to a riding type horse), I want to see its genetic pool widened, more approved stallions![/QUOTE]

I’m with you FriesianX!! With maybe a hint less ‘modernization’…:wink:

#52

No, it isn’t normal…not even amongst friesians…but that is all I will say on that…

I’d say it’s pretty normal for the breed. Look at all the approved stallions that have come into the states and now check out how many are left. It aint Iron Springs if that is what you are hinting at.

#53

[QUOTE=Donella;4122552]
No, it isn’t normal…not even amongst friesians…but that is all I will say on that…

I’d say it’s pretty normal for the breed. Look at all the approved stallions that have come into the states and now check out how many are left. It aint Iron Springs if that is what you are hinting at.[/QUOTE]

Iron Springs has lost 4 or 5 in less than 3 years. I honestly can’t even think of another 4 or 5 (approved stallions in the states) that have died in that span of time. Remmelt…but he was put down due to chronic pain and lameness… who else (that wasn’t an Iron Spring stallion)? If you can, please remind me…

#54

Does anyone recall the “recreation” through selective breeding of the Przewalski Horse?

Just wondering if such a program would aid in the “rebuilding” of the Friesian horse. What were the origins of the breed? Any way to replicate that?

Just wondering if that’s a way to expand the gene pool…

#55

Iron Springs has lost 4 or 5 in less than 3 years. I honestly can’t even think of another 4 or 5 (approved stallions in the states) that have died in that span of time. Remmelt…but he was put down due to chronic pain and lameness… who else (that wasn’t an Iron Spring stallion)? If you can, please remind me…

Well, thats quite the accusation and quite unfair at that.Their wb stallions seem to be doing just fine…so that kinda tells you if you are inclined to thinking the worst of people in tragic situations. Dr Montremare (who is now deceased) lost two of her three within a few years. Wicher from some bizzare kidney issue (which Winand also died of amoung others) and Bonne when he reared up and smashed his head into a tree.

#56

[QUOTE=pattir7;4122652]
Iron Springs has lost 4 or 5 in less than 3 years. I honestly can’t even think of another 4 or 5 (approved stallions in the states) that have died in that span of time. Remmelt…but he was put down due to chronic pain and lameness… who else (that wasn’t an Iron Spring stallion)? If you can, please remind me…[/QUOTE]

Bonne 341 (full brother to Teunis 332) owned by Honor Bright died at 11 years of age. Interestingly, Teunis himself died at 12 years of age.

Wicher 334 died at 12 years of age. Also owned by Honor Bright.

Pyt 325 died at 14 years of age. Ghost Ranch, CA

Otte 375 – died at 9. Sunshine Friesian Ranch. Cause (?)

Some stallions in the Netherlands (I don’t know cause of death):

Tieme 330 - died at 3 – (cause?)
Jitse 361 - died at 3 – (cause?)
Karst 362 – died at 3 – (cause ?)
Jelte 368 – died at 5 – (cause ?)
Jelle 368 – died at 5 – colic
Tonis 393 – died at 10 – found dead in stall. Probably heart related
Wisse 409 – died at 6 – Aortic rupture

#57

[QUOTE=jdeboer01;4123960]
Bonne 341 (full brother to Teunis 332) owned by Honor Bright died at 11 years of age. Interestingly, Teunis himself died at 12 years of age.

Wicher 334 died at 12 years of age. Also owned by Honor Bright.

Pyt 325 died at 14 years of age. Ghost Ranch, CA

Otte 375 – died at 9. Sunshine Friesian Ranch. Cause (?)

Some stallions in the Netherlands (I don’t know cause of death):

Tieme 330 - died at 3 – (cause?)
Jitse 361 - died at 3 – (cause?)
Karst 362 – died at 3 – (cause ?)
Jelte 368 – died at 5 – (cause ?)
Jelle 368 – died at 5 – colic
Tonis 393 – died at 10 – found dead in stall. Probably heart related
Wisse 409 – died at 6 – Aortic rupture[/QUOTE]

Ah yes… I am aware that these horses died… but… in what span of time? And were they all in one place? Interestingly enough, Teunis’ sire, Gerlof is still alive and I know produced a couple of foals last year… I think he’s in his upper 20s.

Everyone can have an opinion on whether or not losing 4 stallions in less than 3 years is ‘normal’. I, personally, don’t think it is…even for friesians.

#58

That is a bunch of disturbing statistics. Horses do die at all ages, but that’s a lot of horses.

‘Recreating Pz’s horse’.

Pz’s horse was not recreated, in the sense that they did not die out, and there were individuals remaining in the wild and in zoos. They were considered absent from the wild but then zoos arranged to release some to the wild and create a small wild group again. There have been efforts to create a sort of Pz. breed by breeding various animals with certain appearances.

A wild horse that was ‘bred back’ was the Tarpan. It had died out completely. This animal used to be in Eastern Europe. It was ‘bred back’ after there were no more remaining individuals, by trying to breed animals together that had some of the appearance, such as smaller horses and ponies and a somewhat similar pony breed called Hucul, that was supposed to have had Tarpan blood. They developed a similar looking animal and then gradually worked at getting closer to the original animal’s appearance.

The idea behind ‘breeding back’ started with the idea of a ‘throwback’, many years before genes were really studied. The idea was that occasionally an individual would be born that was genetically identical to a much more primitive, earlier form closer to the original wild animal. So it was believed one could ‘breed back’ by breeding for specific traits.

Probably it is not possible. The ‘bred back’ animals might look similar but would not have the same genotype as the original animals.

#59

Whenever a breed runs into genetic problems, the cry goes up to outcross to bring in new healthy genetic material.

If you look at other breeds / registries, ANY other breed /registry you will find genetic faults that ‘run in lines’ or that there is a suspected predispositon to. So long as we are human and ‘help’ our breeding stock along when it ails rather than excluding it from the reproducing population, genetic problems and constitutional weakeness will increase in incidence.

Introducing NEW outside blood will probably result in some F1 hybrid vigor, but may also have introduced new and different defects into the gene pool which will surface down the generations. Just go read the breed histories and the many posts on the forum here for a sampling.

Of course, there isn’t a lot of choice if you want a trait that is inadequate in your chosen breed except to outcross, but it isn’t a lasting miracle cure, just the beginning of more hard work for the breeder.

Breeding is for the brave. Kudos to you all!

#60

[QUOTE=pattir7;4127878]
Ah yes… I am aware that these horses died… but… in what span of time? And were they all in one place? Interestingly enough, Teunis’ sire, Gerlof is still alive and I know produced a couple of foals last year… I think he’s in his upper 20s.

Everyone can have an opinion on whether or not losing 4 stallions in less than 3 years is ‘normal’. I, personally, don’t think it is…even for friesians.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think any one farm in the U.S. has ever owned that many approved stallions. I think what has happened with ISF has more to do with the fragility of the breed and not the level of care the stallions are receiving. I mean, those horses have an entire entourage taking care of them.

J.

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