How soon should you see results of a weight gain program for a 30-yr-old horse?

[Hermein]

Dear old Rob is very skinny, but doesn’t seem to want to leave us, so I’ve been trying various feeding regiments to see if I can find something that works to put on weight. (He has a full set of good teeth, is wormed on schedule, fed 3 times a day & usually hoovers it up.) Vet says his hind gut is at fault. He’s on Succeed, TC Sr, and alfalfa & orchard hay. Meds include Previcox and pergolide. Lives at home, turned out with his buddies at least 12 hours daily. He is IR, early Cushings, and has lately developed some neurological problems.

I’ve started giving him 3 soaked pounds of TC Sr. 3 times a day along with his hay. IF I’m going to see improvement, when do you think it might occur?

[Highflyer]

IME it can take several months for there to be visible changes. I would recommend taking pictures and weight taping now and then every month or so.

[WNT]

They have to build up the internal fat reserves, in my experience, before you see a lot of external weight gain. My 23yo TB lost almost 100# quickly in January (not-realized failing teeth + stemmy hay). We caught it and got it sorted fairly quickly and upped his feed (~8# TC Sr, soaked beep and hay cubes) and because I don’t think it had hit the internal fat stores yet, he put on noticeable poundage within two weeks. He’s still a skosh ribby, but the grass is coming up which he does better on than hay which should round out his weight gain.

[JB]

Use a weight tape on him every 2 weeks. Without knowing just how thin he is, it could be a couple weeks, to a month or 2, before you see a change, due to the internal fat reserves that would be developed first, as WNT said.

[enjoytheride]

Can you add something like Coco Soya for a month or two to help boost him? Sometimes the senior feed just isn’t enough.

Have had results using Amplify as well which are the little brown bits in your senior in bulk form

. Although the Coco Soya is very very tasty so it encourages liking the bucket clean. My mare LOVED it and now my barn uses it to put weight on horses.

[JB]

Since she’s just started the 3lb/3x of the TC Sr, I’d leave it there for now. If that’s something that’s just started, it sounds like the previous diet was probably at least marginally deficient in nutrients, as well as more majorly deficient in calories.

Even then, 9lb of TC Sr ofr a 30yo isn’t at a limit where I’d start adding fat. Even when teeth are still good enough to safely chew hay/grass, a 30yo body for sure has some issues with nutrient digestibility, so I’d for sure be maxing out on TC Sr before adding fat. That would mean 5lb 3x/day before I’d think about adding pure fat calories.

[LookmaNohands]

My 33 year old just picked up weight in the last week. He has had problems lately, I had to be gone for a week and he has gotten very picky. So he looked thin when I got home.

I added more Omegatin to the Blue Seal Rider. At the moment he has decided he likes Rider. It doesn’t have much fat in it but he will eat it. I also increased the amount of CocoSoya oil. He really likes that! My weekend barn help noticed a difference after just a week. He is eating about 8 or 9 pounds compared to 6 or 7 before. I have to give him a little at a time. He can’t chew hay and can barely chew grass.

Try adding more fat to your horse’s diet. Also, my guy has been getting GUT from Uckele. I was giving him Magna lax too to buffer his tummy. He might have had an ulcer but he seems okay now.

You might do well to talk to a nutritionist about what you are feeding.

[Hermein]

Thanks for the advice and info. Unfortunately, he dislikes any kind of oil, even Cocosoya. I’ve tried the powdered fat–Cool Calories, etc–and he will eat it, but I really didn’t see any weight gain from it after a couple of months so I stopped feeding it. He loves the TC Sr, so I think I could add more w/o his turning up his nose. I’ll look into the GUT. I wish we (rural California) had the variety of feeds that the east cost seems to have…

[Brian]

IMO, the first 50 lbs of weight gain or lost may be difficult to see in most horses. It’s the next 50 lbs that make the change in body weight more apparent. I can’t locate the source at the moment, but have always gone by 1 pound of weight gain per day as a good rule of thumb.

Saliva is such a key component in the horses digestive system for maintaining proper pH among other things. Since saliva is produced only when the horse chews, why soak the TC Senior if he has a “full set of good teeth”?

If you want to try something interesting, weigh out 1 lb of soaked feed, give it to your horse and count how many times he chews until the feed is consumed as well as how long it takes. Do the same with 1 lb of dry feed. For long stem hay, weigh 1 flake, give it to him for 5 minutes. During that time count how many times he chews while eating. After 5 minutes, take the hay away and weigh the balance to calculate the amount consumed. You can then take the results and extrapolate the numbers to see if and how much different types of feed affect chew time and saliva production.

Hind gut problems as your Vet is suggesting are usually the result of a rapid change in or lowered pH…aka acidosis which results in a compromised microbial population, thus reducing the efficiency of converting fiber to calories. Which leads me to wonder why Succeed was selected as opposed to a supplement like EquiShure?

[Hermein]

Thanks also to Brian. Your “chewing” experiment is interesting. I’ll try it.

As for equishure vs. succeed: Succeed has helped his appetite–he’s finishing almost everything he’s given, which is a bonus–he has been known to eat only the leaves of alfalfa and use the stems as bedding, as well as leaving part of his porridge in his pan. I chose Succeed based on reading reviews of results. I haven’t researched Equishure at all.

As to soaking the TC sr: It’s a way to increase water consumption, plus all my horses seem to absolutely love wet food. Additionally, he spills sack feed if he gets it dry.

[Heinz_57]

I would think you should see some results, if you’re going to get them, within a month. Do you suspect he has issues chewing the alfalfa stems, or is it just a preference/pickiness to only eat the tasty leaves? If his digestive system can handle it, will he eat more alfalfa? Just curious as to why the orchard hay, if he’s at his limit for hay I might cut the orchard and replace it with additional alfalfa if he can handle it.

[Brian]

@Hermein

Thanks also to Brian. Your “chewing” experiment is interesting. I’ll try it.

In the meantime, here’s a link and and some info regarding chewing time…https://kppusa.com/tips-and-topics/chewing-important-part-horses-life/

From the article…

[I][B]Saliva contains bicarbonate, which works to buffer the stomach acids that are produced continuously by the horse. When chewing is limited, gastric acid accumulating in an empty stomach can cause ulcers. The time spent chewing plays an important role in the both the health of the digestive tract and the proper absorption of nutrients.

The type of feed a horse eats greatly affects the time spent chewing. A horse takes about 40 minutes and chews between 3,500 and 4,500 times to consume a thin, two-pound flake of hay. On the other hand, two pounds of oats requires as few as 850 chews and can be consumed in about 10 minutes! Diets high in concentrates (grains/pellets) and low in forages reduce chewing time and disrupt healthy digestion.[/B][/I] [h=4]The type of meals you feed affects chew time[/h]
[I][B]Optimal time chewing: 16 to 17 hours per day

Meal: 18 lbs of hay (nine 2-lb flakes) and no concentrate

Estimated chew time: 360 minutes (6 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 12 hours of chewing

When fed 3 x per day = 18 hours of chewing

Meal: 14 lbs of hay (seven 2-lb flakes) and 2 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 290 minutes (almost 5 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 9 3/4 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 14.5 hours of chewing

Meal: 8 lbs hay (four 2-lb flakes) and 4 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 180 minutes (3 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 6 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 9 hours of chewing[/B][/I]

I’ve found similar results on our horses when checked. It was also interesting how chew time was almost 50% longer for our fat/fiber pellet as opposed to our ration balancer.

The results are our justification as to why we put the amount of effort we do into sourcing the best quality forage we can find, as opposed to just increasing the concentrate to make up for missing calories.

[JB]

Hey @Brian I haven’t seen you around in a while! Cool stuff on the chewing.

[tazycat]

@Brian

In the meantime, here’s a link and and some info regarding chewing time…https://kppusa.com/tips-and-topics/chewing-important-part-horses-life/

From the article…

[I][B]Saliva contains bicarbonate, which works to buffer the stomach acids that are produced continuously by the horse. When chewing is limited, gastric acid accumulating in an empty stomach can cause ulcers. The time spent chewing plays an important role in the both the health of the digestive tract and the proper absorption of nutrients.

The type of feed a horse eats greatly affects the time spent chewing. A horse takes about 40 minutes and chews between 3,500 and 4,500 times to consume a thin, two-pound flake of hay. On the other hand, two pounds of oats requires as few as 850 chews and can be consumed in about 10 minutes! Diets high in concentrates (grains/pellets) and low in forages reduce chewing time and disrupt healthy digestion.[/B][/I] [h=4]The type of meals you feed affects chew time[/h]
[I][B]Optimal time chewing: 16 to 17 hours per day

Meal: 18 lbs of hay (nine 2-lb flakes) and no concentrate

Estimated chew time: 360 minutes (6 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 12 hours of chewing

When fed 3 x per day = 18 hours of chewing

Meal: 14 lbs of hay (seven 2-lb flakes) and 2 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 290 minutes (almost 5 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 9 3/4 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 14.5 hours of chewing

Meal: 8 lbs hay (four 2-lb flakes) and 4 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 180 minutes (3 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 6 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 9 hours of chewing[/B][/I]

I’ve found similar results on our horses when checked. It was also interesting how chew time was almost 50% longer for our fat/fiber pellet as opposed to our ration balancer.

The results are our justification as to why we put the amount of effort we do into sourcing the best quality forage we can find, as opposed to just increasing the concentrate to make up for missing calories.

Great information WOW.

[Brian]

@JB

Hey @Brian I haven’t seen you around in a while! Cool stuff on the chewing.

I know it’s been awhile. Between the horse business, Mobile Food Business, Sweet Corn field, Apple orchard, and Grand kids, time goes by pretty quickly.

I like the idea of being an infrequent contributor as opposed to being a troll, so I’ll post with the intention of contributing helpful information when I can.

[Angela_Freda]

@Brian

In the meantime, here’s a link and and some info regarding chewing time…https://kppusa.com/tips-and-topics/chewing-important-part-horses-life/

From the article…

[I][B]Saliva contains bicarbonate, which works to buffer the stomach acids that are produced continuously by the horse. When chewing is limited, gastric acid accumulating in an empty stomach can cause ulcers. The time spent chewing plays an important role in the both the health of the digestive tract and the proper absorption of nutrients.

The type of feed a horse eats greatly affects the time spent chewing. A horse takes about 40 minutes and chews between 3,500 and 4,500 times to consume a thin, two-pound flake of hay. On the other hand, two pounds of oats requires as few as 850 chews and can be consumed in about 10 minutes! Diets high in concentrates (grains/pellets) and low in forages reduce chewing time and disrupt healthy digestion.[/B][/I] [h=4]The type of meals you feed affects chew time[/h]
[I][B]Optimal time chewing: 16 to 17 hours per day

Meal: 18 lbs of hay (nine 2-lb flakes) and no concentrate

Estimated chew time: 360 minutes (6 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 12 hours of chewing

When fed 3 x per day = 18 hours of chewing

Meal: 14 lbs of hay (seven 2-lb flakes) and 2 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 290 minutes (almost 5 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 9 3/4 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 14.5 hours of chewing

Meal: 8 lbs hay (four 2-lb flakes) and 4 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 180 minutes (3 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 6 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 9 hours of chewing[/B][/I]

I’ve found similar results on our horses when checked. It was also interesting how chew time was almost 50% longer for our fat/fiber pellet as opposed to our ration balancer.

The results are our justification as to why we put the amount of effort we do into sourcing the best quality forage we can find, as opposed to just increasing the concentrate to make up for missing calories.

Brian can I steal this to post on the ‘boarders horse paws all night’ thread? Or can you post it there?

[Brian]

@Angela Freda

Brian can I steal this to post on the ‘boarders horse paws all night’ thread? Or can you post it there?

Steal away.

I also had forgotten to mention that the information in the article was similar to a study done in New Zealand years ago with Standardbreds. That study demonstrated the correlation of reduced forage intake with adverse behavior. As the % of forage in the diet decreased and was replaced with a typical grain ration, fecal pH also decreased. During the study, the incidence of adverse behavior, i.e. wood chewing, feces eating, cribbing, etc… increased substantially as pH decreased.

Chewing on wood or manure apparently produced enough saliva to create relief from acidosis.

[Angela_Freda]

Wow…

[Hermein]

Heinz 57—Here’s another “Yeah, but…” I could give him more alfalfa but California is the enterolith capital of the world* and it’s thought that feeding straight alfalfa causes enterolith formation. So, I mix his forage to try to avoid this. Most of the horses who live here eat nothing but alfalfa because it’s readily available and relatively cheap.

• Because we have a long growing season (second cutting will be made before the end of the month) and there are often 9 cuttings in a season, farmers put out a lot of alfalfa. Also, a single planting of alfalfa will be good for maybe 5 years, whereas grasses don’t do that. Orchard grass gives two cuttings, and has to be planted every year, for example.

[Heinz_57]

I’ll give you that, I owned a horse that had surgery (prior to my owning him) for a softball-sized one. Buuuut… This horse is 30, so I’m not sure how much of a concern that would be if he were mine and he’s really very thin right now.