How to fix a horse behind the vertical, and head too low?

[beau159]

I’ll keep the back story as brief as I can. My parents are keeping a horse for my aunt who just recently got out of a relationship. Most likely, this is going to be a permanent “keeping” of the horse, which is fine because my parents have the room and my mom wanted an extra horse besides her colt.

This gelding is around 10 years old, although he wasn’t gelded until he was about 6. He is registered AQHA. He supposedly was trained really well and all that, and he was actually at a “trainer’s” this summer before my aunt brought the horse to my parent’s place.

I’m not impressed with his training.

I rode him for the first time this past weekend so I could see a few things for myself. My mom would tell me how when she asks him to gallop, he puts his head WAY down.

From my one experience on him, he seems like a nice enough horse but he is certainly not suitable for my aunt who hasn’t ridden regularly in many years. He needs a confident and assertive rider. He bucked twice while I was making him work a little bit (he’s done the same to my mom) but nothing major and I just rode him through it and made him keep working.

He doesn’t really seem to know leg aids very well. It was even difficult to get him to do a nice sidepass from a standstill. (He likes to back up.) He also seemed to fight the bit a little. We’re not sure when he has had his teeth done (or if ever) and I’ve had a hard time convincing my mom to take her own colt in to get his teeth done … so we’ll see if I can get her to get the both of them done. I’ve been nagging her for a while.

I was riding him in a short shank bit with a single joint in the smooth mouthpiece. Eventually during our ride, I clipped the reins directly to the mouthpiece to make it a snaffle and that made a HUGE difference when I am trying to do direct rein work with him. Hurt my stopping ability a little bit without the shank, but still totally manageable.

Best I can tell that when you ask him to lope, he immediately puts his head WAY down which causes all his weight to go on his front end, and makes for a rough ride. Seems like at some point he was “trained” to do this (quite obviously, trained incorrectly) for a headset. If you put rein pressure on both reins to slow him down, he just puts his head even lower which makes his transition from a lope to a trot very rough.

So my question in all my rambling: What is the best way to FIX this?

For the brief moments when I got him to lope normally, he has a really nice lope. But once that head goes down again, it loads his front end.

We’re a little limited in how we can work him right now, being it’s winter and my parents live in the middle of no where. So basically just trying to find a spot where the ground isn’t icy or full of frozen snow clumps.

Another problem he has is that he doesn’t follow his nose. There were times when I was loping him, trying to figure him out, I had his nose to the left yet he was traveling to the right. It helped a lot to make that small change on his bit (make it a snaffle) but he’s going to need to re-learn how to follow his nose.

Would also help if he could do leg cues, which will have to be worked on as well.

Essentially, he is NOT well-trained like we thought he was going to be.

I think one of the best things for him (once spring rolls around) is to just let him lope for a loooooong time on a loose rein. So that maybe he learns he doesn’t have to put his head in that “frame” and we aren’t going to ask him to do that.

I won’t really be the one riding him that much because my parents live 100 miles away, but a few pointers I have come up with for my mom while loping him

1. use one rein at a time (not both together)
2. do few circles (he hates them and that’s probably what he had to do in the past a lot, and probably associates that with the headset) but do lots of serpentines and “stair-case” patterns, again, using one rein at a time to change directions
3. drive him forward (he seemed to do better with his head set when I really drove him forward with my legs)
4. work on lateral leg cues
5. work on following his nose

But I was just looking for any other specific things we can do to help bring that head up and into a normal position again.

…This is what happens when trainers don’t know what they are doing!!!

[Bluey]

Not all trainers are really trainers and looks like he was trained by some of those?

What were they doing with him, any kind of showing and if so, any records of that in the AQHA, or maybe open shows, or speed events, or … ?

At times a horse came to be trained/retrained that did what you say that one does and we just started it up like a colt, just went much faster up the ladder, probably could get him riding right in a few days.

Since you don’t have a place to work him, could you trail ride him a bit and not ask much of him at first, until he is a little more confident and then go easy, not ask much at first, so he is not coming up with those evasions, like lowering his head and bucking?
A horse that evades behind the vertical generally needs more leg, but hard to tell without seeing what is going on there, if he is only evading the bit or truly “rubbernecking”, completely losing connection between the head and the rest.
Some get horses like that by over-flexing them to death and that takes a lot of forward and leg to get one over, horrible bad habit.

Could you talk to the previous trainer, see what you hear from there?

[aktill]

@beau159;7865781

Eventually during our ride, I clipped the reins directly to the mouthpiece to make it a snaffle and that made a HUGE difference when I am trying to do direct rein work with him. Hurt my stopping ability a little bit without the shank, but still totally manageable.

Jointed snaffle-mouthed curbs are going to make your life and his more difficult.

@beau159;7865781

Best I can tell that when you ask him to lope, he immediately puts his head WAY down which causes all his weight to go on his front
end, and makes for a rough ride. If you put rein pressure on both reins to slow him down, he just puts his head even lower which
makes his transition from a lope to a trot very rough.

You shouldn’t really be using rein pressure to slow him down. If the trainer worked him off seat requests, it’s not really surprising that he doesn’t understand what you’re asking him to do.

He doesn’t associate rein commands with speed, or what you don’t realize that you’re telling him with your seat is overriding those requests. He may also understand a rein lift to mean stop…pulling back with both reins to slow down or stop is a beginner-level no-no in most every western or english how-to book.

If he’ll lope freely on a loose rein, try altering how you sit (or how heavy you sit etc) and see if he responds to that. Ignore where his head is unless you’re worried about him unloading you (stay close enough on the rein to get his head up if you need to).

@beau159;7865781

Another problem he has is that he doesn’t follow his nose. There were times when I was loping him, trying to figure him out, I had
his nose to the left yet he was traveling to the right. It helped a lot to make that small change on his bit (make it a snaffle)
but he’s going to need to re-learn how to follow his nose.

He shouldn’t follow his nose, at least in my book. Why would he? A horse that truly travels straight is not one who’s stiff or just follows his nose, it’s one who is balanced between his shoulders. To get that balance, you need to be able to work both true and counterbends. If he has to follow his nose all the time, you can’t work a counterbend (or a cow, not sure if you care about that).

@beau159;7865781

I think one of the best things for him (once spring rolls around) is to just let him lope for a loooooong time on a loose rein. So that maybe he learns he doesn’t have to put his head in that “frame” and we aren’t going to ask him to do that.

Good call.

@beau159;7865781

We’re a little limited in how we can work him right now, being it’s winter and my parents live in the middle of no where. So basically just trying to find a spot where the ground isn’t icy or full of frozen snow clumps.

A lot of lope problems are really better fixed at the walk and trot anyway. If he’s worried about his footing, you won’t accomplish much. Just go for a trail ride.

@beau159;7865781

So my question in all my rambling: What is the best way to FIX this?

It depends on how you want to approach it. I’d personally figure out what “buttons” he understands, get on his level, and then reprogram to what you want him to do. The more you expect him to just understand you right away, the more frustated HE’LL get…in his mind he’s already doing what you’re asking him to, as he’s understood it in the past.

Nothing wrong with changing his training, but make it a transition.

@beau159;7865781

…This is what happens when trainers don’t know what they are doing!!!
Essentially, he is NOT well-trained like we thought he was going to be.

From what you’ve read, I’m not sure I agree with your blaming the trainer here on anything other than a rein cue for head down (which is pointless in my book). You’ve made some points I disagree with.

[KIloBright]

Sounds like someone used draw reins on him, and hung on the mouth, plus never put any basics on this horse
You need to go right back to square one and work on body control-first at the slower gaits. If it isnt right at the walk and trot or jog, in certainly wont be at the lope
There is no such thing as a shanked snaffle, although tack catalogs use that term all the time, as do many professionals
Most riiding snaffles are jointed, but the shape of the mouth piece does not dictate action, and once you add shanks , it is a curb
You can have snaffles with just a straight bar, as in a driving bit, and even one with a slight port, and as long as the reins are attached where that bit exits the mouth, it is a snaffle
Thus, yes, go back to a plain snaffle at the moment, and ride him with more legs then hands, and really driving him forward with your legs when he tries to get behind the vertical
Horses develop that habit, if someone constantly hangs onto their mouth, and never gives rein release. The horse then seeks it the only way he can-by getting behind the vertical. Once he gets behind that vertical to a certain degree, you have no control, and a horse soon learns that
Yes, we want a horse to learn to follow his nose, but with his entire body, in correct aleignment, esp those shoulders.
Horses naturally follow where their shoulders go, until we teach them to follow their nose with their entire body in correct aleignment
Shoulder control is very important, and while teaching total body control is the ultimate goal, you need shoulder control to truly guide your horse.
Ever see a horse run off in one direction, even though the rider has his head and neck cranked in the opposite direction. That is a horse with no shoulder control, who has learned to rubber neck
Totally agree on leaving his head alone at this point, and riding him off of legs, but I would put some body control , leg aids ect on him first at the walk and trot, before loping much, so that when you do lope him, you can keep his body aleignment correct, using your legs, not hands. Not saying to forget about reins, but you should never turn a horses head into a circle beyond the point where you can see the corner of his inside eye. Thus the reins are used more as a place the horse learns to stay evenly between. You can use the inside rein to help keep his shoulder up, by using it held against his neck and slightly up, if he goes to drop that inside shoulder in the circle, while continuing to drive with your outside leg-basically leaving his mouth alone

[beau159]

Bluey: We’re really not too sure of his history and likely that we won’t. To keep the story short, my aunt has been divorced once, probably about 20 years ago. I don’t remember much of her first husband because I was pretty little when they divorced. Since then, she’s been with this other guy. They mutually decided NOT to get married. Turns out in the last couple years, he likes another woman. AND my aunt. He wanted to keep them both. My aunt went on with it for a while, waiting for him to decide and “pick one” and she got tired of waiting.

He bought her this horse in an attempt to save the relationship. I believe he paid $3,500 for him. Bought her a nice horse trailer to go with it. (Which is sitting at my parents place too.)

She lives in another state so by bringing the horse here, she doesn’t have to keep it with a person that is associated with him and she can break off all ties with him and go on with her life.

With that said, she’s not going to contact him to find the person he bought the horse from (and I wouldn’t want her to) so his past is going to remain a mystery.

There’s your drama for the day.

He’s been at my parent’s place for about 2 months. My mom takes him out trail riding. We don’t do any other type of riding except trails! (Meaning, no arena work because we don’t have one, except in the summer when there’s a summer fallow field that has been dug up.) We’re suspecting he hasn’t been ridden much on his own because (my mom tells me) he’ll have a few “moments” she’s got to push him through, and then he’s fine. She rides by herself because my brother and father do not ride. So he really is coming along just fine in that aspect; just still has the weird headset at the lope! As long as the weather and footing is decent this winter, she’ll keep riding him when she can.

[QUOTE=aktill;7866055]
Jointed snaffle-mouthed curbs are going to make your life and his more difficult. [/QUOTE]

Why? Of course it’s obvious this individual horse needs something else because of the issues that he has. But I frequently use jointed-mouth curb bits on my horses and will continue to. They’ve served me well in the past.

The bit he was wearing is actually very similar to the bit that I use to show my horse Red in reining and other showing events. Red goes great in it.

@aktill;7866055

You shouldn’t really be using rein pressure to slow him down. If the trainer worked him off seat requests, it’s not really surprising that he doesn’t understand what you’re asking him to do.

To me, this is SAFETY 101. When I pull back on the reins, even if I am not being perfect with my seat or legs, I still want my horse to stop. Now. That is my #1 pet peeve with any horse. I want to know that if I put any type of rider on them (good or bad) that they will stop when they feel pressure on both reins.

That being said, I know there are other ways to ride. And I know that the rein cues are always the last cues you give after your seat/legs and possibly verbal. But to me, safety is still safety. When I’m out trail riding, I want to know that if my horse spooks suddenly and throws me off balance, I can still stop them without my body being in the correct place. (As one example.)

My mom and I agree on that so we are going to work on teaching him that stop means stop, without first putting his nose to his chest.

[QUOTE=aktill;7866055]

If he’ll lope freely on a loose rein, try altering how you sit (or how heavy you sit etc) and see if he responds to that. Ignore where his head is unless you’re worried about him unloading you (stay close enough on the rein to get his head up if you need to). [/QUOTE]

Eh, his bucks weren’t all that bad and he was quite obvious with his gestures on when they were coming.

I did putz with him on a loose rein at all gaits and he knows nothing as far as seat/leg cues. So I very highly doubt the “trainer” he has had in the past did anything except artificial headset.

By the end of the ride, I got a few decent sidepass steps in each direction. But that’s giving an individual lateral cue at a standstill. He didn’t know what to do at a walk or anything faster.

[QUOTE=aktill;7866055]
He shouldn’t follow his nose, at least in my book. Why would he? A horse that truly travels straight is not one who’s stiff or just follows his nose, it’s one who is balanced between his shoulders. To get that balance, you need to be able to work both true and counterbends. If he has to follow his nose all the time, you can’t work a counterbend (or a cow, not sure if you care about that).[/QUOTE]

This horse is nowhere NEAR ready to be doing any counterbends or advanced movements, so I’m not even sure why you bring that up. This horse is not balanced. If you re-read my post, I mention how he’s carrying all his weight (especially at the lope) on his shoulders. No collection or hind end engagement at all.

I’m talking about basic stuff. If I have a green colt and I ask them to turn to the left, the very basic beginning cue you give is a left direct rein to turn their nose where you want them to go. They “follow their nose”.

When I was experimenting with him, there were times when I asked with my seat, legs, AND reins to turn left (of course he had no clue what the seat and legs meant, but I was still playing with him to see what he knew). His head was looking left alright … but his body continued to move to the right because that’s where HE wanted to go. I didn’t quit asking so eventually he realized he wasn’t going to get away with it and then turned left as I asked but it took him awhile.

At this stage for him, he needs to follow his nose. We aren’t going to get into anything advanced until he knows seat and leg cues, and gets his weight off his front end.

[QUOTE=aktill;7866055]
From what you’ve read, I’m not sure I agree with your blaming the trainer here on anything other than a rein cue for head down (which is pointless in my book). You’ve made some points I disagree with. [/QUOTE]

And I think you’ve read into some things that don’t exist. Let me try to clarify further.

He does it on his own. At some point in his past, he was taught to incorrectly carry his head behind the vertical and way below the withers.

If I cue him for a lope and I have him on an exaggerated loose rein and ZERO rein contact, he will still carry his head behind the vertical and low. He’s got an okay neck rein and I can move him around that way (still with zero rein contact) and he will keep his head behind the vertical and well below the withers.

It’s a complete artificial headset that he was taught.

If you add rein pressure on both reins, he EVADES the bit and puts his nose to his chest. Again, at some point he was taught incorrectly. There is a difference between teaching a horse to lower their head and a horse that evades the bit. (And as I mentioned it above, for me and my mom, we agree that SAFETY is important and when you ask a horse to stop, they should stop immediately with no questions asked.). He will eventually stop, but it makes for a rather rough transitions from a lope to a trot when he has loaded all his weight onto his front end. We want the slow down and/or stop immediately, and without the bit evasion.

Back to my original question:
I’m looking for specific techniques or cue ideas to help teach him to raise his head to a more “normal” position and be less evasive of the bit. Of course, time and miles are going to be the key, and lots of work at the walk and trot (before the lope) but just looking for any other ideas.

[beau159]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7866379]

There is no such thing as a shanked snaffle, although tack catalogs use that term all the time, as do many professionals[/QUOTE]

Easy now. Don’t put words into my mouth.

This is an example of the bit that “came with him” that I was using. It’s not exact but just to give you an idea:

http://www.tackroominc.com/images/402%20Argentine%20Snaffle.jpg

About halfway through the ride, I got off and clipped the reins to the mouthpiece, instead of to the bottom of the shank. Thus making it a “snaffle” because I’ve removed the leverage factor.

Bits can be operated in more than one way, based on where the reins are attached.

But yes, he went alot better with that. We’ve also got a few snaffles around the barn, and I was going to bring home my Little S hackamore to try on him, and see how he does when we eliminate a bit completely.

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7866379]

Ever see a horse run off in one direction, even though the rider has his head and neck cranked in the opposite direction. That is a horse with no shoulder control, who has learned to rubber neck[/QUOTE]

And that’s exactly what he was doing (minus the extremes, as he wasn’t “running off”). And that is why he needs to re-learn how to follow his nose and how to respond to seat and leg cues.

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7866379]

Totally agree on leaving his head alone at this point, and riding him off of legs, but I would put some body control , leg aids ect on him first at the walk and trot, before loping much, so that when you do lope him, you can keep his body aleignment correct, using your legs, not hands. [/QUOTE]

This is probably the THICK of what I wanted to get out of my question.

Months down the road, after he has learned seat and leg cues, and he doing very well at the walk and trot.

IF he still reverts back to his old habit of the low headset at that point, how could you re-train him with the reins to lift his head UP? Maybe a one-rein bump?

I’m probably getting ahead of myself but that’s more what I was looking for. I know my mom will work on lots of trail riding and leg cues with him and we are not worried at all about loping him right now. But what’s a good technique to (down the road) help him with his headset?

[SuckerForHorses]

IF he still reverts back to his old habit of the low headset at that point, how could you re-train him with the reins to lift his head UP? Maybe a one-rein bump?

Most “trainers” I’ve seen who have WP horses, use a bump to “check” the horse and get it to put it head back down, and by the sounds of this horse’s training, he was trained by someone who would potentially utilize similar methods.

When my horse gets too low and behind the verticle (which isn’t a lot because he’s not a WP type, he’s cow bred and pretty forward), I ride him with more leg and really ride him FORWARD into my hands.

[SuckerForHorses]

Regarding getting his body to get more responsive to the aids. It sounds like he’s been plodding around on the rail, with very little RIDING being done.

To get those shoulders loosened up and responsive, I do a shoulder on the rail/shoulder off the rail exercise along the long end of the arena. As we round the corner, and start going straight, I pick my hands up, move them over to the inside of the track, horse’s shoulder moves over, go a few strides, pick hands up, move them back over towards the outside (rail) and shifts the shoulders back to the rail. This gets those shoulders working independently from the hind end, and starts the process of getting things with their own buttons.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=beau159;7866382]

Why? Of course it’s obvious this individual horse needs something else because of the issues that he has. But I frequently use jointed-mouth curb bits on my horses and will continue to. They’ve served me well in the past.
The bit he was wearing is actually very similar to the bit that I use to show my horse Red in reining and other showing events. Red goes great in it. [/QUOTE]

Well, obviously don’t change anything that’s working for you, but this old article is the crux of the discussion on those types of bits:http://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm

@beau159;7866382

To me, this is SAFETY 101…That being said, I know there are other ways to ride. stop, without first putting his nose to his chest.

I’m totally with you in safety being a goal, but lots of horses will speed up if you take sudden hold of their face (especially at speed…an OTTB will be an easy example). Safety is an obvious GOAL, but again, reefing back on both reins isn’t something everyone buys into, so not everyone trains that in. The existence of the cavalry stop, one rein stop, doubling etc is testament to the fact that both reins at once just gives a horse something to brace into and take off.

[QUOTE=beau159;7866382]
This horse is nowhere NEAR ready to be doing any counterbends or advanced movements, so I’m not even sure why you bring that up. This horse is not balanced. If you re-read my post, I mention how he’s carrying all his weight (especially at the lope) on his shoulders. No collection or hind end engagement at all.[/QUOTE]

Got all that. It’s also why I (and most people here) brought up shoulder control. Counterbends at least at the walk are a baby basic (Les Vogt even calls it one of his "5 Easy Pieces). Otherwise a horse will tend to dump down on his inside shoulder or drive out over the outside (like you described later).

[QUOTE=beau159;7866382]
I’m talking about basic stuff. If I have a green colt and I ask them to turn to the left, the very basic beginning cue you give is a left direct rein to turn their nose where you want them to go. They “follow their nose”.

When I was experimenting with him, there were times when I asked with my seat, legs, AND reins to turn left (of course he had no clue what the seat and legs meant, but I was still playing with him to see what he knew). His head was looking left alright … but his body continued to move to the right because that’s where HE wanted to go. I didn’t quit asking so eventually he realized he wasn’t going to get away with it and then turned left as I asked but it took him awhile. [/QUOTE]

My wife used to hate riding my old horse because he did just that. Pull on the inside rein, and he’d bend his neck and keep on going. That’s not necessarily wrong, because reins don’t mean turn if there’s nothing in the seat to back them up. Indicate the bend with the rein and ask him to bring his shoulder around, and he’d turn just fine.

You need to connect the rein to a foot in some fashion. He’ll only drive out over an outside shoulder if the inside rein doesn’t influence the inside hind foot in any way. Likewise, if you can’t talk to the outside shoulder (which is really just a function of how far under the body the inside foot falls) with the outside rein, you’ll never get him to “neck rein”.

[QUOTE=beau159;7866382]
If I cue him for a lope and I have him on an exaggerated loose rein and ZERO rein contact, he will still carry his head behind the vertical and low. He’s got an okay neck rein and I can move him around that way (still with zero rein contact) and he will keep his head behind the vertical and well below the withers. It’s a complete artificial headset that he was taught. [/QUOTE]

Sure, plenty of reiners go around like that.

[QUOTE=beau159;7866382]
If you add rein pressure on both reins, he EVADES the bit and puts his nose to his chest. Again, at some point he was taught incorrectly. There is a difference between teaching a horse to lower their head and a horse that evades the bit. (And as I mentioned it above, for me and my mom, we agree that SAFETY is important and when you ask a horse to stop, they should stop immediately with no questions asked.). He will eventually stop, but it makes for a rather rough transitions from a lope to a trot when he has loaded all his weight onto his front end. We want the slow down and/or stop immediately, and without the bit evasion.[/QUOTE]

You’re backing yourself into a corner. You want him to stop when you pull on both reins, he’s already behind the bit as it is, and he doesn’t associate the rein with any foot in any way that you’ve described.

[QUOTE=beau159;7866382]
Back to my original question:
I’m looking for specific techniques or cue ideas to help teach him to raise his head to a more “normal” position and be less evasive of the bit. Of course, time and miles are going to be the key, and lots of work at the walk and trot (before the lope) but just looking for any other ideas.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I’d put him into a bosal or sidepull and get some connection between rein and his feet. Double him a few times with some finesse and you’ll build a stop. Keep reefing on both reins and he’ll freight train right over you at some point, because you’re building a runaway.

[craz4crtrs]

My little mare was like this. Head really low or up with no clue where to really put it, dead sided and no real lope. She worked for a living on a feed lot and her owner was roping on her…badly.

I rode her dressage. Lots of lateral movements, getting her to move her rib cage, and getting her neck out of an S-curve. Boy could she lean on the bit. I put her in a snaffle and because of the pulling rode her in two reins with a german martingale. Just enough to say…no not down there, and no not up there. Just right here straight and didn’t ask anything else. No collection, nothing. No big stops, just lots of transitions. To be clear, I only used the german martingale for a few rides, I wanted her working off my legs and seat, not my hands.

Fast forward almost 4 years…I can ride her in anything from a snaffle, to bosal, to curb bit. Once in a while she will try pulling, but very seldom and it doesn’t last long with a reminder from my legs and at the most a jiggle of my outside rein or a bend to the inside and she quits. Nice round lope circles, she does not have a small lope, but a big pretty lope. Lots of trot gears.

On the teeth, I would do him asap. That was a big part of my mare’s fussiness with a bit in the beginning.

Good luck.

[craz4crtrs]

My little mare was like this. Head really low or up with no clue where to really put it, dead sided and no real lope. She worked for a living on a feed lot and her owner was roping on her…badly.

I rode her dressage. Lots of lateral movements, getting her to move her rib cage, and getting her neck out of an S-curve. Boy could she lean on the bit. I put her in a snaffle and because of the pulling rode her in two reins with a german martingale. Just enough to say…no not down there, and no not up there. Just right here straight and didn’t ask anything else. No collection, nothing. No big stops, just lots of transitions. To be clear, I only used the german martingale for a few rides, I wanted her working off my legs and seat, not my hands. Baby steps, lots repetitions and don’t push. Lots of time to fix this right.

Fast forward almost 4 years…I can ride her in anything from a snaffle, to bosal, to curb bit. Once in a while she will try pulling, but very seldom and it doesn’t last long with a reminder from my legs and at the most a jiggle of my outside rein or a bend to the inside and she quits. Nice round lope circles, she does not have a small lope, but a big pretty lope. Lots of trot gears.

On the teeth, I would do him asap. That was a big part of my mare’s fussiness with a bit in the beginning.

Good luck.

[Showbizz]

I hvan’t read every post.

That said, I’m seeing a lot of assumptions. So and so told you this, and it seems apparent that, and so on.

Start the horse over, as if he were a greenie. Because I think he is. His “supposed” training is just not seemingly there, in your opinion. He’s likely not had as much training as you have been told.

You seem capable, so just start him from scratch.

[Bluey]

No way of telling from here, but it seems that you are right, you have a green 10 year old, a horse that has been ridden on and off, but not trained to any kind of communication thru aids, generally called jerk and kick riding around here.

You need a horse with more control and responding to aids, taking the time to teach him that seems best.
There are plenty of ways to go about that out there.

Clinton Anderson is one trainer that is very bad about over-flexing and disuniting his horses, but he is a very aggressive trainer also and gets them “spanked on”, off it, so they do scoot along and don’t even think to cheat by getting behind the bit if not asked.
Many people copy his over-flexing and disuniting a horse, but don’t have the concepts or intensity to put and keep the horse then together the rest of the time.
That kind of training is really not necessary and also why it is best for most people not to go there to start with.
Many are not an aggressive trainer and end up with a horse having been taught those evasions and not made it clear they are not how we go on when performing correctly.
That is also how some reining trainers teach and Clinton is first a reiner when it comes to performance horses.
Most reiners are trained both ways, only get their head super low when asked to do so or in competition, but not other places.

You probably would be better off with a straight snaffle on that horse and best in a more confined space than out in the trails, until you can teach him enough so he is more manageable.
If you don’t have that, you could find ways to train anyway on the trails, use trees and bushes to make circles forward and a quarter circle back and turnaround, figure eights, ride straight to a boulder or other solid object to stop and let the horse learn your body aids when he realizes he is going to have to stop and that is how you ask, without needing to haul back on him with your reins.

My guess with what you say is that your horse is maybe barely trained, as you already are guessing and his lope problems are more a bad habit he developed than anything anyone trained into him on purpose.

Do you have or want someone local that could evaluate what you have and maybe put some rides on your horse and tell you where to go from that, if the advice you are getting here is not what you think will work for you?

As you can see, here everyone has all kinds of ideas, but none of us really know.

[KIloBright]

I agree that you basically have a green horse, that was started in correct ly, by someone focusing on the head, versus correct movement, and also some one without feel, so that the horse was never rewarded when he gave lightly tot he bit, thus learned to 'protect himself the only way he could, by getting behind the Vertical
I’m not going back to quote who said what, just reply to some basics that were said
First of all, not every curb with a jointed mouth piece is a TT, although, again, often labelled that way
A true Tom Thumb has a jointed mouth and Straight up and down fixed shanks, thus giving very little signal
There are many good curbs out there with a jointed mouth piece, and many people, myself included, go to one of those when first moving from a snaffle
My personal favorite is the Reinsman short shanked loose jawed colt transition bit. It has very little curb action, and allows for two handed riding on a horse that still needs help at times,before being ridden totally off of the indirect rein
One then can go to a jointed mouth curb with longer shanks, or to one with a port. Some horses prefer a jointed mouth piece, and some a port
A curb with fixed shanks is for a more finished horse. Bottom line is that many great training programs, like that of Bob Avila, use a curb with a jointed mouth, and all curbs with a jointed mouth piece certainly are not true Tom Thumbs!
This horse belongs back in a plain snaffle, esp since he is intimidated in his face

A true sidepass is from a stand still, with the horse crossing over both in front and behind, and with neither shoulders or hips leading

Half passes are done with forward movement

Far as fixing a horse that gets behind the vertical- it is a difficult thing to fix, once a horse has learned to do so, and why good training programs work at never getting a horse there in the first place!

However, you have one, thus you never want to pull on him. If he tries to drop behind the vertical, you have to really really drive him up with legs

You can try one technique, that is used to get a horse to keep his shoulders up.
Hold the reins up just in front of the withers, while really driving with your legs, and when the horse softens, reward
You can also use a modified rollback in that loping circle, to teach the horse to use his rear end. No use loping endless circles, but rather work from that lope departure being correct from the first stride
Lope a circle, stop. Do a turn over the haunches to the opposite direction, just tot he point where the hips are still slightly into the new lead, then lope off again, no trotting steps
You can also jog and eventually lope a square, versus a circle. In order to turn that corner, the horse has to keep his shoulders up and take a few cross over steps

[Showbizz]

There are a lot of people making a lot of assumptions on this horse’s training You don’t know. So just continue from nothing.

Half passes are done with forward movement but in the direction of bend. Leg yeild is forward movement but on the counter bend.

[Beverley]

Recognizing that he is green in many aspects but by golly is going to try to please you with the way he has been taught to go at the lope, what has generally worked for me is to ignore the headset early on and focus on teaching what I want in response to seat, hand, and elementary rein aids. Actually a headset remedy for me is taking advantage of terrain, logs to step over and things in that vein on the trails, where they need to use their head and neck, and build on that. Eventually you can get to the point where you simply teach the new head and neck carriage that is consistent with a balanced way of going but of course that’s harder than having the opportunity to do it right in the first place. What worked for one rubber necked horse was teaching ‘whoa’ verbally in conjunction with one rein changes of direction to a stop, they learn that just stopping on the voice cue is less work and from there you can teach the light halt cue with the reins if desired.

[Wirt]

Another way to change that is to start riding him in a hackamore. All his training was done in his mouth, sounds like.
Then try to leave his head alone, provided you can control him.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7867232]
Another way to change that is to start riding him in a hackamore. All his training was done in his mouth, sounds like.
Then try to leave his head alone, provided you can control him.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is what I do first and control, I think, is not the problem here, he seems to be a push type horse, so that could work, IF the rider knows how to use a hackamore properly, that we don’t know.

I got this horse from a neighbor one April, he was running off with his people.
First I did, go back to our hackamore, teach him how to listen, even when his brain didn’t want to.
First picture the first day riding him, checking new cattle.
By next fall, I gathered cattle for four hours, off the canyons, thru the brush, driving them by headquarters and up to the plains to the shipping pastures, right after someone took the second picture, with that little string around his neck, didn’t even take a bridle with me.

The point, training is about concepts to be understood by both, the trainer and the horse it is teaching.
Pictures seem to be loading now, so here they are:

[aktill]

BTW, that article could have easily been titled “The Trouble with Shanked Snaffles” rather than “The Trouble With Tom Thumb”, based off the concepts described. The shorter the shanks, the closer the action is to a true snaffle. The more swept the shanks, the slower the action (more rein required per given movement of mouthpiece) and effectively shorter the shank.

[beau159]

I don’t want this to turn into a Tom Thumb debate, but I stole these pictures from another forum because I think they are worth posting.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/TomThumbisbadpic2.png

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/TomThumbisbadpic1.png

Just because a bit has a single joint mouthpiece like a Tom Thumb, does not mean the bit acts like a Tom Thumb. Subtleties are important.