[QUOTE=beau159;7867920]
I don’t want this to turn into a Tom Thumb debate, but I stole these pictures from another forum because I think they are worth posting.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/TomThumbisbadpic2.png
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/TomThumbisbadpic1.png
Just because a bit has a single joint mouthpiece like a Tom Thumb, does not mean the bit acts like a Tom Thumb. Subtleties are important.[/QUOTE]
This…an Argentine is NOT a Tom Thumb.
Carry on…
[QUOTE=beau159;7867920]
I don’t want this to turn into a Tom Thumb debate, but I stole these pictures from another forum because I think they are worth posting.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/TomThumbisbadpic2.png
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/TomThumbisbadpic1.png
Just because a bit has a single joint mouthpiece like a Tom Thumb, does not mean the bit acts like a Tom Thumb. Subtleties are important.[/QUOTE]
No subtleties there, but pure mechanics.
Hold any bit in one hand, holding the bridle with the other above it and have someone handle the reins behind your back.
You will see that, with a mouthpiece made of two or several rather long pieces of metal, attached to anything with any kind of leverage, there is no two times, when they pull on one shank or both, you get the same response from those mouth pieces.
Horses are wonderful at reading so much more we use to indicate what we want and learn to ignore those kinds of bits for the finer points of communication.
Want to go left and use one of those bits, that no telling what that pull of your hand in the reins may do to it and the horse learns to understand that bit as saying, “my rider wants something, what else is telling me what that is, their weight, their legs, where they are looking?”, because the bit is anyone’s guess how it will poke around in their mouth.
Just as confusing as you can feel it in your hand.
A bit with direct action, where your pull is on the mouthpiece, no leverage, makes that communication much more clear too the horse.
That is why most people traditionally trained with a bosal or snaffle, didn’t go to a leverage bit, with a straight mouthpiece, until the horse was well trained and would not require but signaling to understand what it needed to do.
Don’t believe me?
Try it on your own hand, the bit in there like it would lay in a horse’s mouth.
Now, there are specialty bits that are made just for one kind of contact and those, like correction, chain and other type bits with other kinds of mouthpieces than a few long, connected pieces and that is not even talking about bits that transfer some of their action to nose or poll, like gags and other combinations.
Try doing that with a curb with any kind of large port also and see what you think, taking into consideration how a horse’s mouth is built, how that makes you hold your wrist, the equivalent of the horse’s larger palate, how it makes a horse hold it’s head.
Way before there were so many bits, we were already taught to always look at any bit carefully, check it out in our own hand and listen to it, see how thick or thin it may be to a horse’s mouth, how it balances, how it twists and turns when affected by reins, etc.
The real answer to any bit is, after you try it on your hand, try it on the horse you intent to use it and see how the horse responds, now that you have a better idea of the mechanics of it.
Some times, it would surprise us what some horses just like best.
Again, terminology, as I already posted.
A curb with a jointed mouth piece is neither a shanked snaffle, nor are all curbs with a jointed mouth piece a Tom Thumb.
POsted that before, but think it is worth elaborating on again.
A true Tom Thumb is a curb with a jointed mouth piece that has FIXED shanks and with those shanks being straight up and down, thus giving about zero signal time
When talking about curbs, one also has to remember that they should be used only on a horse with an 'educated mouth ’ (done with a snaffle, or also using a bosal to teach basic concepts ), thus used for increased signal and finesse. Thus they are never meant to be used like a snaffle, and even snaffles are used incorrectly lots of times, and why the single jointed snaffle gets a bad rap, declared to have a nut cracker effect (which is amplified with a TOm Thumb )
You don’t adjust a snaffle so there is any wrinkle at the corner of the mouth, nor do you use constant strong hands with little legs. If you have that single jointed snaffle adjusted so there are as much as three wrinkles in the corner of the mouth, then pull on it with both hands, then yes, you might get a nut cracker effect.
It is also one of the reasons (medium to firm contact ), why a two jointed snaffle ( French link)is preferred by many English riders
Used correctly, the single jointed snaffle is a great bit. Bob Avila states that 98% of horses like it, and that he has won hundreds of thousands of dollars riding with it, and that it is the bit he goes back to, if a training problem crops up
A horse that does not have body control, does not fully understand leg aids, does not know how to guide between legs and reins, lacks the foundation, which needs to be put on any horse using a direct signal non leverage devise, be it some bittless bridle, side pull, bosal or snaffle. They are not ready for leverage, ridden with a bit designed to be used more as a signal bit, and with the horse working solidly off of the indirect rein
That does not mean the horse just turns off of the indirect rein, but that he does so with his entire body correct, plus he guides
Therefore this horse needs to go back to basics , including as to what is on his head
[QUOTE=craz4crtrs;7868021]
This…an Argentine is NOT a Tom Thumb.
Carry on…[/QUOTE]
But aktill seems to think it is. Hence why I posted it.
Not sure how you got that? I’m just saying the principles of the article apply to any broken mouth shanked snaffle (I refuse to call them curbs, sorry).
Yes, there are differences in that family of bits. However, they share some common drawbacks as a result of having leverage and broken mouths.
Saying an Argentine is fundamentally different from a Tom Thumb is like saying a Baucher is fundamentally different from a D-ring snaffle…they’re not. There’s a difference in action, but not a fundamental difference.
[QUOTE=aktill;7869235]
Not sure how you got that? I’m just saying the principles of the article apply to any broken mouth shanked snaffle (I refuse to call them curbs, sorry).
Yes, there are differences in that family of bits. However, they share some common drawbacks as a result of having leverage and broken mouths.
Saying an Argentine is fundamentally different from a Tom Thumb is like saying a Baucher is fundamentally different from a D-ring snaffle…they’re not. There’s a difference in action, but not a fundamental difference.[/QUOTE]
That is true, shanks on any other than a straight mouthpiece, if with a port or not, on principle are going to be confusing for many horses because they give inconsistent signals.
There are exceptions to that, “correction” bits can be some, but are still not as dependable in their action as a straight bar is, to engage the bit with any consistency.
That doesn’t mean that trainers can not make them work for their purpose, just that there are better ways to communicate with a horse without causing confusion and resistances.
Try it yourself, you will see what we mean there.
Correction bits (which I’m taking to be shanked bits with open bottomed ports that swivel in the mouthpiece) aren’t something I’d choose to use because I don’t believe in “tongue relief”. If you relieve pressure on the tongue, it has to go somewhere, and that’s directly to the bars…no thanks. A small amount of mullen to a solid bar can make it sit more evenly on the tongue, but that’s about it for me.
That aside, like other broken mouth shanked bits correction bits are still fundamentally flawed in their action.
Bits that swivel in the mouthpiece imply that there’s going to be some direct reining, or at least one rein used more than the other. When you pick up on a single rein, the shank swivels at the bridle hanger and somewhere in the mouthpiece. Since the vertical distance shortens on the side where you draw back on the rein, the mouthpiece rises on that side. Since the inside cannon of the bit is now higher than the outside cannon, the horse is then simultaneously asked to tip his nose to the inside and rotate his head off plumb to the inside. Asking a horse to tip his nose off plumb is to ask him to twist his spine…bad.
The only reason anyone dreamed up a broken mouth shanked snaffle was to try to get something with shanks, but some direct reining capability (ie, something between a snaffle and curb). That’s the whole point of a two-rein, however…bosal for direct reining, and curb for bridle bit signals. Why try to reinvent the wheel when the new wheel doesn’t work as well as the old one?
That said, people have made money using them, so there you go…you make your own choices.
It sounds like the horse is more finely tuned than what the OP is used to riding. Even though myself and most of us here are not fond of the style the horse was trained to go in or the way he was likely trained to do it, I wouldn’t be so quick to knock the trainer. It doesn’t sound like a horse that is all that green or one that the trainer didn’t spend much time on. It sounds like a horse that someone has put some work into and is used to a fairly specific type of ride.
OP: If there is a good trainer nearby who is really proficient in the basics, I really think you’d benefit from some lessons with them, but I realize how difficult it can be to find that type of instruction in many areas.
Personally, I’d throw a plain loose or see ring snaffle (my first preference is always a French link but it ultimately depends on the horse) and start over with the horse. It doesn’t matter that he is well trained when the two of you don’t speak the same “language”. You’ll have to reach him what your language is.
I’d focus on getting him in front of the leg first. The headset doesn’t matter, he shouldn’t hang out behind the vertical once he is moving forward. Introduce what you want slowly and patiently. The second he does what you ask, release the pressure and let him know that was what you wanted. It will be a slow progression at first but with consistency it’ll build quickly. If he wants to buck, so long as it isn’t pain related and you are capable of riding it out, I’d treat him as a kid trying his parents by throwing a tantrum, show him it won’t get him anywhere and isn’t worth the effort.
Walking and trotting through ground pole grids and “courses” may be helpful, they’ll hold his and your attention and both of you will have to go off of your seat and eye. Ground poles have always been a good “ice breaker” for me when I’m on a new horse that is a different ride than what I’m used to.
Get yourself a great honking curb our a double twisted wire and yank on it till he throws his head up, then quit. Repeat every time he puts his head down.
In all reality, I agree with restarting him and filling in the holes as your find them.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7868571]
Used correctly, the single jointed snaffle is a great bit. Bob Avila states that 98% of horses like it, and that he has won hundreds of thousands of dollars riding with it, [/QUOTE]
Though I won’t knock a two piece true snaffle, this line is a bit misleading. Most, if not all, western events don’t allow anything else in a straight snaffle bit.
From the NRCHA rulebook: “Snaffle Bit shall be either “D” or “O” Ring type, no
larger than 4 inches in diameter on the inside of the ring. They must
have a broken, 2 piece, mouth piece…” etc etc.
[QUOTE=aktill;7869791]
From the NRCHA rulebook: “Snaffle Bit shall be either “D” or “O” Ring type, no
larger than 4 inches in diameter on the inside of the ring. They must
have a broken, 2 piece, mouth piece…” etc etc.[/QUOTE]
Well you have me confused, in my lexicon, a ‘broken two piece mouth piece’ IS a single jointed snaffle.
[QUOTE=Beverley;7869812]
Well you have me confused, in my lexicon, a ‘broken two piece mouth piece’ IS a single jointed snaffle.[/QUOTE]
Yep, we’re saying the same thing.
Aktill:
Not sure how you got that? I’m just saying the principles of the article apply to any broken mouth shanked snaffle (I refuse to call them curbs, sorry).
Now there is an oxymoron for you-‘shanked snaffle!!!’ I truly truly hate that term, and more entry level people get confused when they start to show, because of that incorrect terminology. They show up in a snaffle bit class with a curb t hat has a broken mouth piece, thinking that they are riding in a snaffle
A snaffle is a bit without leverage. Once you add shanks, you have the lever principle-right back from high school physics_Ie, leverage
Thus , you are calling that ;shanked snaffle" a non leverage, leverage bit!!!
They are curbs by any show rule standards, and while some correct bits have a jointed mouth piece, not all jointed mouth curbs are correction bits.
I think you have been looking at too many tack catalogs, versus reading some show rules!!!
Are you going to tell me that this colt transition bit, which has a broken mouth piece is harsh!!!
BoB Avila had a very good series on bits, in western Horseman one year, called Bitology. I think getting hold of those publications might help you a lot on understanding how various curbs act
Go to the AQHA rule book, and two year olds can’t be shown in a snaffle with more than one break, while older horses can
Tack & Equipment
AQHA bit rules?
…
1
AQHA bit rules?
C
443. WESTERN EQUIPMENT
(a)
References to hackamore mean the use of a flexible, braided
rawhide, leather or rope bosal, the core of which may be either
rawhide or flexible cable. Absolutely no rigid material will be permitted
under the jaws, regardless of how padded or covered. Horse
hair bosals are prohibited. This rule does not refer to a so-called
mechanical hackamore.
(b)
References to snaffle bits in western performance classes
mean the conventional O-ring, egg-butt or D-ring with a ring no
larger than 4" (100 mm). The inside circumference of the ring must
be free of rein, curb or headstall attachments which would provide
leverage. The mouthpiece should be round, oval or egg-shaped,
smooth and unwrapped metal. It may be inlaid, but smooth or latexwrapped.
The bars must be a minimum of 5/16" (8 mm) in diameter,
measured one inch (25 mm) in from the cheek with a gradual
decrease to center of the snaffle. The mouthpiece may be two or
three pieces. A three-piece, connecting ring of 1 1/4" (32 mm) or less
in diameter, or a connecting flat bar of 3/8" to 3/4"(10 mm to 20
mm) measured top to bottom, with a maximum length of 2" (50
mm), which lies flat in the horse's mouth, is acceptable. Optional
curb strap attached below the reins on a snaffle bit is acceptable.
(c)
References to a bit in western performance classes mean the
use of a curb bit that has a solid or broken mouthpiece, has shanks
and acts with leverage. All curb bits must be free of mechanical
device and should be considered a standard western bit. A description
of a legal, standard western bit includes:
(1)
8 1/2" (215 mm) maximum length shank to be measured
as indicated in the diagram on page 137. Shanks may be fixed
or loose.
(2)
Concerning mouthpieces, bars must be round, oval or
egg shaped, smooth and unwrapped metal of 5/16" to 3/4" (8 mm
to 20 mm) in diameter, measured 1" (25 mm) from the cheek. They
may be inlaid, but must be smooth or latex wrapped. Nothing may
protrude below the mouthpiece (bar), such as extensions or prongs
on solid mouthpieces. The mouthpiece may be two or three pieces.
A three-piece, connecting ring of 1 1/4" (32 mm) or less in diameter,
or a connecting flat bar of 3/8" to 3/4" (10mm to 20 mm) measured
top to bottom with a maximum length of 2" (50 mm), which
lies flat in the horse's mouth, is acceptable.
(3)
The port must be no higher than 3 1/2" (90 mm) maximum,
with rollers and covers acceptable. Broken mouthpieces, halfbreeds
and spades are standard.
(4)
Slip or gag bits, and donut and flat polo mouthpiecesNote, that the joint in that snaffle can be one or two, and that a curb can be either a port or a jointed mouth piece
I have shown enough years that I know what defines a snaffle and what defines a curb
And while leverage bits are called curbs, it is not because they have ports, but rather curb action, from that curb strap and shanks
Snaffles on the other hand, because most riding snaffles have a broken mouth piece, many people have then called any bit with a broken mouth piece a snaffle.
Not so. A snaffle is a non leverage bit. Once you add shanks you have leverage
Here is a good article by Dana Hokana on graduating a horse from a snaffle to a curb. She does call that jointed mouth curb a TT, but explains it’s mild action, used correctly, and why it is the best choice, going from a snaffle to a curb
Again, jointed mouth curbs have received a bad rap from people that don’t use a
curb bit correctly
http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/snaffle-curb-bit-
2108.aspx
I have many bridles hanging in the barn, as I hate changing bits. On my senior horses, I grab a curb with either a port or a jointed mouth piece and they ride happily in either. I also ride them at times in a snaffle. Really does not matter, as they ride mainly off of seat and legs on a loose rein
Lol, not everyone worships at the temple of Bob Avila, or gives two whits about what happens in the show ring. Thanks for the “educational opportunities”, but unlike yourself I’m quite comfortable with what what I’ve written. If you don’t agree with it, that’s fine, but I’m happy to leave my knickers untwisted.
The reason we don’t seem to see eye to eye is very simple. You keep reiterating all the things these “big name” people do (and you’re always shocked…SHOCKED I says!),but you have no idea why they do them or never share that. I explain WHY I do the things I do, and you never seem to actual digest the mechanics or reasoning.
So thanks, but I have reasons for what I do. It makes my training very easy to fit pieces together, since it’s all logically consistent. If you have method to your program, great…share that. Big long rants are not helpful though, since they’re next to impossible to read.
So enjoy your tack catalog shanked snaffles if you like. When you’ve played a violin though: http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/SpadeBridle.jpg
…going back to a garage sale synthesizer has little appeal.
My bits are hand made, and the makers who produced them are wonderful folks who explain exactly what you do. With good bits, there’s no need to have a tack room full…they’re not the weakest link in the chain.
Yup, professionals all the time also use the term ‘shanked snaffle,’ as it simplies the differentiation between a curb with a port and a curb with a jointed mouth piece. That fact does not change as to what that bit truly is, classified by mode of action
However, unlike you, those professionals know that in reality they are talking about a curb, when they refer to a curb with a broken mouth piece as a shanked snaffle
I have no problem with you using that slang, although it does add to confusion for those that truly don’t know what defines a curb and a snaffle, but I do object when you try to say that a bit with a jointed mouth and shanks is not a curb!!!
Ie," Quote 'I refuse to call such a bit a curb" That goes against fact
You don’t need to show, just read basic horsemanship classes at any equine educational institution, or even a 4-H manual, where bits are correctly defined as to action, not by ease of description
You also don’t need to use a jointed mouth curb in your training program-I really don’t care.
At the same time, don’t expect me to ignore incorrect statements that all curbs with a jointed mouth are Tom Thumbs, or that a curb with a jointed mouth is not a curb!!!
Oh, get over yourself. On one hand I’m supposed to bow down to Bob, and on the other, he’s a professional that intentionally misuses the only terminology you deem correct to avoid confusing people. Yet I go to his pro shop, to buy his special bits, and they’re not labelled the way they should be. Snort.
Shanked snaffles are fundamentally mechanically flawed. What you choose to call them makes little difference to me. It’s a snaffle bit with shanks in my world, and since snaffles aren’t curbs, ergo the abomination is labelled as such.
Never going to hang on my tack room wall, no matter what you want to call it.
Bottom line, Aktill, trying to be more concise, something I admit to not always being,
allow me to summarize:
I have absolutely no disagreement that the term, 'shanked snaffle is widely used, even by professionals, such as Bob Avila, Bob Loomas and a host of others, to describe a curb with a jointed mouth piece, purely for simplification
My argument is that you try to state that a curb with a broken mouth piece is not a curb
I mentioned showing for the pure fact that when you show, you have to ride with a bit as it is truly classified, and not by some slang terminology used to simplify as to whether you are talking about a curb with a broken mouth piece or a port
It is also not true that all curbs with a broken mouth piece have the defect in design like a true Tom Thumb, thus that nut cracker effect, and therefore a curb with a broken mouth piece does not need to be thrown out, as you advised the OP, being a poor choice , far as bit type
At the same time, I agree that this horse needs to be back in a plain snaffle, to fix ‘holes’
I also never insinuated that you needed to follow any bit progression program.
Use what works for you
The flaw in their design is not only the nutcracker effect. The bigger flaw is that they ask the horse to tip their nose off plumb when they’re used with direct reining.
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