Just a suggestion … How about spending winter doing some “long-line” work w/a caveson & surcingle. Going back to basics/ building a foundation/ building a top line/building a relationship. Work the horse in way which encourages a longer frame along w/building the muscular development & balance to support that. Take the riding & previous training out of equation… to work from ground up ?
[QUOTE=aktill;7871903]
The flaw in their design is not only the nutcracker effect. The bigger flaw is that they ask the horse to tip their nose off plumb when they’re used with direct reining.[/QUOTE]
Are we taking about a TT or a curb that happens to have a jointed mouth, with loose jaws and shanks that are swept back?
By the way, I have to find the reference, but the nut cracker effect, that some people have attributed to a true single jointed snaffle has been proven to be false, and certainly does not occur with a jointed mouth curb, used correctly
It also does not tip their nose off plumb, assuming the horse has had good basics put on him in the snaffle first, and thus has body control on him, versus someone just trying to use reins on a green horse that does not belong in acurb in the first place
I showed my gelding in a curb with a broken mouth piece and never moved him on to a port, because he did not like a curb with a port.
He won many awards, including trail and western riding, western pl and HUS, plus i rode him on many mountain miles.
I could ride him down the road, doing a series of straight line flying changes, and his aleignment stayed correct
If you have to go to two hands, on a curb, a loose jawed curb with a jointed mouth piece is much more suited for this, then a curb with a port, and why many professionals use such a bit, moving up from the snaffle, even if eventually they move that horse up to a curb with a port
Discussing things with you is funny. I make a point based off a reasoned set of mechanical facts (see http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?452802-How-to-fix-a-horse-behind-the-vertical-and-head-too-low&p=7869512#post7869512)
You then say I’m wrong with little other explanation, then go on a big long tangent about things that are basically unrelated.
Makes for a very disjointed conversation…
The choice of the mouth piece often depends on the individual horse’s mouth conformation and preference, and that includes chosing a curb with a jointed mouth piece or a port:
All those well known horsemen that use ajointed mouth curb in their training program are not idiots, oblivious to bit function or lacking horsemanship, as you imply
"ypes of Mouthpieces
After determining whether to use a snaffle or a curb and deciding on the appropriate width and material, the next step is to determine the style of mouthpiece needed. Selection of the mouthpiece is where much of the confusion surrounding bits begins. This is due in part to the vast number of mouthpieces available and also to the lack of understanding of the conformation of the mouth and how the various mouthpieces fit and function in the mouth. It is possible to have a mouthpiece that is mild in its action and pressure (a soft bit) or a mouthpiece that is severe (a harsh or hard bit). As previously stated, both a snaffle bit and curb bit may have either a broken or solid mouthpiece. How well a horse responds to a certain type of mouthpiece is dependent on each horse’s mouth conformation and preference. The more broken (jointed) the mouthpiece is, the more it will conform to the horse’s mouth. A mouthpiece that is broken in several places will conform around the tongue more than a mouthpiece that is solid or only broken in one place. A mouthpiece that is solid will place more pressure across and over the tongue, while one that is broken in one place will break in the middle when the reins are pulled and take some pressure off the center of the tongue, thereby placing it more on the bars of the mouth and the sides of the lips. A bit that is broken in multiple places will conform around the tongue and place pressure more equally over the tongue, bars, and lips. Some horses with shallow palates are more comfortable with bits that conform around their mouth. Mouthpieces broken in only one place might come into contact with their palate as the rider pulls back on the reins, and the mouthpiece closes at the break. Each horse responds differently to different types of bit pressure; some horses respond better in bits that are solid, while some respond better to bits that are broken. The rider must experiment to determine which bit a particular horse performs better in.
Conclusion
Regardless of the bit selected, the rider’s hands are the most important factor in communicating with the horse and influencing the effectiveness and severity of a bit. Correct use of hands is critical in determining the performance of a bit. In most instances, the problems perceived as resulting from not having the correct bit are in reality training problems. There are many instances when using the appropriate bit can enhance the training process. And, vice versa, the use of an inappropriate bit may produce undesired responses, such as resistance to pressure, head shaking, excessive mouthing of the bit, excessive reaction to the bit (such as rearing), or overflexing at the poll. It is important to find a bit that works well for both horse and rider. Horse and rider experience level is extremely important in determining bit selection. Inexperienced riders or inexperienced horses should be equipped with softer, less severe bits. Inexperienced riders lack the hand control to use more severe bits effectively without damaging the horse’s mouth. Inexperienced horses often have not learned the desired response to bit cues, and, therefore, severe bits might confuse or overwhelm the horse. It is important to experiment with bit selection to determine which bit works best for a particular horse and rider combination.
Not implying that they’re idiots, I’m saying they’re using a tool that has fundamental design issues that make the horse’s job more difficult than it needs to be. Independently of the quality of the hands behind the bit etc etc, the horse has to learn to ignore some of what the bit is asking it to do in order to puzzle through what the rider wants. They’re amazing animals, so they often figure this stuff out in spite of us.
No different than asking a horse to back up by leaning backwards. They can puzzle it through, but that’s not making his job any easier.
Yes, that is one thing that we do agree on. Horses are forgiving and amazing, but we will need to continue to disagree on the design flaw.
Having ridden and trained enough horses for 30 years, I know that some horses prefer a curb with a broken mouth piece, over a port
This does take into account that the horse has first learned body control and correct response to a bit , using a snaffle or other non leverage devise, and is being ridden as a western horse should be in a curb, mainly off of seat and legs and the indirect rein
A bit with a port and fixed shanks provides very even signal, but also demands a horse that is very broke, and I do use such a bit on my finished horses
The following applies to ALL curbs:
Leverage devices are finishing bits and are not suitable for training beginning horses since one of the first things the trainer needs to establish in the horse is lateral flexion and lateral control (being able to lightly bend the horse’s neck and body and control his direction to left and right.) Leverage devices such as curb bits cannot be effectively “direct reined”. Pulling on one rein to guide the horse will cause the lever to actuate and squeeze the jaw. Thus the horse must be taught to “neck rein” before wearing such a device and the curb should not be used to teach lateral control to a beginning horse.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7874008]
Having ridden and trained enough horses for 30 years, I know that some horses prefer a curb with a broken mouth piece, over a port[/QUOTE]
The plural of anecdote is not data. What you’re really saying is that you could get more done with those horses in the bits you happened to own at that time. And great, good for you.
What happens more often is what is described in threads like this, where some random person wonders why their horse is going around with his neck on funny and won’t turn. They then proceed to blame the horse, or the horse’s trainer, or past abuse, or something other than themselves and their choices of tack. They “need” to stay in a leverage bit for the “brakes”, but the horse has never tracked a turn in correct bend in their life under saddle.
There’s absolutely nothing about the action of a broken mouth curb that is “halfway” between a snaffle and a solid or loose jawed curb, yet they’re sold as such. The pieces of the bit are from mixed parentage, but the action of the bit that results from the combination is not.
Again, like the english double bridle, the two rein is the logical transition between direct and “neck” reining, but a lot of modern riders have never even heard of the two rein (since it’s not allowed in most show events).
I’d be surprised if anyone could find many popular designs that predate the start of organized horse showing too, where a horse has to be in a curb by a certain age. When you’re stuck in a curb and you HAVEN’T taught the skills you describe above, it’s not surprising when you reach for your wall of snaffle mouthed shank bits.
My horses are ridden in a snaffle for at least a year, so I do not 'reach for my wall of 'shanked snaffles" because they have gaping holes in training.
I will also go back to a snaffle when teaching a new skill
In fact, I can ride any of my broke horses in whatever bridle and bit I happen to pick that day. I have as many curb bits with ports as I do with jointed mouth pieces
When I say that my gelding preferred to stay in a curb with a broken mouth piece, it did not mean he he could not have been ridden with a port, he was just slightly happier staying with that broken mouth curb
You need not just equate the use of a curb with a jointed mouth to showing, as I ride as many if not more trail miles than I do showing
I did not grow up in a show home, nor even a horse home, other than we had Percherons that my step father used in the tobacco fields, and on which I learned to ride.
I took clinics with many different people over the years, since then, once I started to raise horses. Like many people, I took what worked for me, from those different clinics, and for the horses we raised.
We sold horses both on this side of the Ocean and sent some to Europe.
Many of our past customers have kept in touch, and are very happy with the horses we raised, and trained, whether they went to show homes or to recreational riders
I find it rather insulting for you to suggest that I use a jointed mouth curb at times because my horses lack basics from fundamental training in a bosal or snaffle
You don’t know me, and you certainly don’t know how my horses ride.
Excuse me , if I pass on that double bridle! Ever see how well one of those English horses track, if all bit contact is dropped?
Bob Loomas, also a well know reining trainer (yikes, a show person! ), also uses the progression of a snaffle to a curb with a jointed mouth piece , before going on to a port
He has his horses guiding and stopping well, before going on to a curb with a jointed mouth piece
He also wraps the mouth piece,where it lays on the bars, when first going from the jointed mouth curb to a solid one. He sites a mouth conformation where a horse might be better staying in a jointed mouth piece curb
I guess I will stick with the bitting programs that work for these professionals, and thus remain in a group of un informed horsemen, according to you
Again, I don’t care what you use, but allow that there are very good horsemen out there, that go to a curb with a jointed mouth, after that education in the snaffle, that they certainly have elements like correct guide on their horses, and aren’t just a bunch of Ya whos, reaching for that ‘shanked snaffle’!
Let’s say it again, the plural of anecdote is not data. I could name a bunch of guys who wouldn’t let you ride with them in a bit like that. Neither my stories nor yours change anything about the points in question here.
[QUOTE=aktill;7875249]
Let’s say it again, the plural of anecdote is not data. I could name a bunch of guys who wouldn’t let you ride with them in a bit like that. Neither my stories nor yours change anything about the points in question here.[/QUOTE]
It also does not change the fact that my horses guide very well, work with quite , closed and relaxed mouths
So< i guess just keep riding with ‘your guys’, whoever they are, as they must be the final standard
This has been really entertaining and good for a chuckle!
The age-old debate of the dressage board makes it to the Western board: On one side we have someone who studies classical horsemanship with nary a hoot given about showing; on the other side we have someone who shows with nary a hoot given about the “no-name” classical trainers.
:lol:
Ah, the age-old debate rages on, and we’re only talking about bits! :winkgrin: What else can we add to the equation to make it more interesting? :eek:
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7875676]
What else can we add to the equation to make it more interesting? :eek:[/QUOTE]
I just want the western forum to get out of Bizarro World. :lol:
ahhh, thanks for clearing up the mystery.
Thus we have a classical dressage person an expert on western bits-interesting!
She didn’t say classical dressage person, she said classical horsemanship. Think vaquero horsemanship. Snaffle to bosal to two rein to bridle bit (spade).
Wow, I’m a classical dressage person? Who knew…glad I read the forum this morning lol I’ll admit that my bookshelf has a good sampling of works from Baucher to Seunig, but there’s plenty of Californio (and even cowpuncher gasp) material there too. Don’t own a pair of breeches or an english saddle though, so that doesn’t sound very classical (or dressagy).
Pretty sure Pocket just meant that a lot of the discussions here are rooted in the same “show vs classical” discussion that happens or’ yonder. Not a bad observation…I’m certainly not one to compromise my choice of tack etc based of some arbitrary AQHA/ACHA etc rule. That spade is out of spec for anything other than ARCHA competition, for example, and the stupid superstition that tapaderos somehow made a horse spin faster hasn’t stopped me from having a pair on the bench.
“Classical” is just as meaningless a term as “natural” is, though, to a student of history.
Sometimes tradition and classical is just that, and perhaps training in many cases has improved, not regressed.
I have read Ed Cornnels book on Hackamore reinsmanship , and agree with those that state the making of a spade bit horse today is kinder (just an example )
But carry on, the past just has to be better
Looking at old military jumping pictures, I know that the position of the modern Olympic jumper has improved! ( again, just an example of 'tradition )
By the way, how did this topic get so side tracked to begin with, from the original question by the OP?
I do believe that I said this horse needed to go back into a plain snaffle , be driven forward with legs, leaving mouth alone, beyond just having a bit barrier ,when he goes to get behind the vertical, that, and have basic body control put on him using a snaffle and fix him first at the walk and trot before going on to loping, teaching him to guide between legs and reins
The least biased judge is the horse. Not hard to look a horse in the eye and get the real story behind a rider.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7875752]
ahhh, thanks for clearing up the mystery.
Thus we have a classical dressage person an expert on western bits-interesting![/QUOTE]
Not classical dressage, classical horsemanship. Aktill is quite knowledgeable about the history of western vaquero horsemanship, including the training progression and bitting progression of a true bridle horse.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7876397]
Not classical dressage, classical horsemanship. Aktill is quite knowledgeable about the history of western vaquero horsemanship, including the training progression and bitting progression of a true bridle horse.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I came to that conclusion, after the last replies as that is the ‘western version’ of classic horsemanship
Again, read some of the way a bridle horse was created in those days, and The vaqueros did not necessarily have the gentlest methods in creating a bridle horse . Read Ed Cornell’s book
Today that tradition continues in working cowhorse, but with a gentler approach
at times.
Not everyone here should ,nor wants to ride a spade horse. I have watched some clinics, given by people that teach clinics in the bosal stage of creating eventually a bridle horse. Those flat hats are a trademark.
Of course, I know people here in Alberta that both work on ranches, and several that show in working cowhorse, where bridle horses are still created ,showing in a Spade or Half breed or a Mona Lisa.
In fact, my son started colts for a well known working cowhorse trainer, when he was going to University,and has shown in working cowhorse
Since the Dons from Spain introduced vaquero horsemanship, the influence from classic dressage is obvious. Sometimes, for sport, grizzly bears were even roped, depicted in quite a few paintings
I don’t want a horse up in a Spade bit, thus while I appreciate the training and time involved in creating a bridle horse, that is not my end goal
Surely you are not suggesting that every rider should strive to create a Bridle horse, and eventually ride with a spade bit, and that thus, that progression is the only way to train a western horse?
