A friend of mine bought a lovely yearling standardbred filly from the kill pen at the Camelot auction. The filly was identified by the auction on her Coggins as a QH “from a fancy breeder in TN”, not. The filly has a freezebrand which identifies her as very well bred and coming from a well known STB breeding farm. The farm has confirmed she was theirs but denies any knowledge of how she got to Camelot. They are ignoring requests for assistance in getting papers on her. Can my friend get the papers through the Trotting Association without the farm’s help or approval? As I said the filly is freezebranded and has been identified.
The papers would really help to safeguard this filly in the future and would allow someone to either train and race her or use her as a broodmare. She is very, very well bred. She has the right to be known by her real name and my friend has the right to the benefits of having her papers. She bought her, quarantined her and paid for long distance shipping.
Thanks for your help.
You can’t do anything unless you have the papers, signed by the last owner of record, or a statement from that last owner stating how the papers were lost or destroyed.
If the horse is under paperless registration (it will say the certificate is held electronically when you look the horse up in search) then you will need a signed transfer form from the last owner of record.
I don’t know if this will help, but the info below is from the Camelot Feed Lot website that Helping Hearts Equine Rescue has. Maybe you could contact this person?
[I]In regard to purchased Feed Lot Standardbreds:
Hello Folks,
I work for the US Trotting Association, breed registry for Standardbred horses. We have recently developed a policy of transferring any horse, past, present or future, in the custody of a 501c3 rescue or adoption group, to that group for free. The $33 fee will be waived. We will also convert the horse’s registration to “pleasure” which provides a measure of protection that the horse will never be raced or their progeny registered.
This is totally voluntary, but if you’d like to transfer the horse, we will do it for free. You must have the papers, signed by all past owners, to send in with the transfer document. If you don’t have the papers, but would like to try to get them, go ahead and send the transfer documents anyway and we will try to help.
What to do right now - if you want to transfer a horse retroactively or transfer a horse that is currently with you, let me know your group’s name and address and we will send you out a packet with information on how to accomplish this.
Many thanks for the work you do with “our” horses and all horses. Please help spread the word by coss postin this message or forwarding to anyone you think might be interested.
Ellen Harvey[/I]
You still need to have the papers in your possession to do that. All they are doing is waiving the normal transfer fee (which is a very nice gesture but doesn’t help in this case)
So the breeders can effectively dump their culls with impunity being sure the horse can never be officially identified? Disgusting.
So here it is. I’ll out them right now. It is Blue Chip Farms.
Read a little Better
[QUOTE=lyndieventer;4941082]
In regard to purchased Feed Lot Standardbreds:
Hello Folks,
If you don’t have the papers, but would like to try to get them, go ahead and send the transfer documents anyway and we will try to help.
Ellen Harvey[/QUOTE]
I would send in the transfer docs and see what happens. The registry is really nice and easy to deal with and they will help you to the best of their ability. Ticks me off this well bred mare was just dropped off and the breeders are like ho hum but it happens sometimes.
Your friend does not have the “Right” to have registration papers for the horse. She did not buy (and ship) a registered horse. She bought, to her knowledge, a grade horse, or a QH or whatever. The horse, has her identity. She doesn’t care if she is “papered”. Matters not one bit to the horse. If your friend wanted a registered horse, and the benefits that go with it, she should have purchased one.
Are you sure the farm is the one that sold the filly? A lot of people don’t transfer ownership of foals, or they could have held her registration papers as she isn’t breeding quality (in there opinion). (though I personally prefer that farms Spay the fillies then… or that at the very least more registries offered a “paper” spay where no foals of the mare would be registerable, but that’s neither here nor there). If she was sold as a non-breeding and non-racing animal, then it’s possible that the next owner never transferred ownership.
I can’t say that I agree with you, Dandy.
My friend bought the filly on Christmas Eve out of sympathy. At least she cared whether or how the filly lived or died. She is the current legal owner of the filly and as such has the right to her papers. By your reasoning, if you dug a Matisse out of a trash bin thinking it was a copy and it turned out to be original, you wouldn’t have the right to have it documented and valued as such if the previous owner didn’t want you to. I don’t think so. Blue Chip threw her away.
The filly’s registered name includes Blue Chip in it; that indicates she belonged to Blue Chip. Blue Chip has confirmed she was theirs. The span of time from when she was at Blue Chip and when she went up for bid at Camelot is short. The barn manager admits giving her away to someone, but, interestingly, no one knows who he gave her to. Isn’t this exactly the scenario that we see over and over with race horses? “Oh, I gave him/her to some one who was supposed to give him/her a good home. I don’t know how he/she could have ended up a few days later in a kill pen.;)” Oh, please.:rolleyes:
I would contact the USTA and just ask. They were AWESOME to work with, very friendly and helpful when I was trying to get papers on my OTSTB that I picked up at an auction. I wish I had written down the lady’s name who was helping me- she was great. I’ll see if I can find her name and email for you…
I agree that it sucks that they dumped the horse either knowingly or unknowingly. I do not agree that she deserves the papers. Horses sold at that type of auction are sold as is. Again while I don’t condone the practice most likely the reason she was at that type of auction in the first place is because the farm had decided for whatever reason that she was not worth the time or money to proceed with her career. So they dumped her but did not dump her papers along with her.
I don’t know a single thing about stbs but I know with tbs if the horse was registered fully then you do not need the papers to register the horse’s foals. That said, people who do this for a living didn’t think she was worth racing or breeding, I think I would take their word for it and make her a riding horse.
Two completley different things. There could be a lot of reasons that BC didn’t pass the papers on, especially if she is as nice as you think she is. I doubt they are in the habit of giving away Well-bred fillies that are worthy of racing or breeding. There is probably a reason they didn’t want her reproducing or racing.
I know several breeders who sell male horses that are gelded instead of as stallions, because they don’t believe the horse should contribute something to the gene pool. Sadly, unless spaying becomes a lot cheaper, and less invasive, there isn’t much one can do to keep the fillies from being bred, save… holding the papers. And that doesn’t work even, just ensures that the offspring isn’t registerable.
i would call the trotting assoc. and explain your story to them. explain where the filly came from and explain that she has been identified by her freeze brand. tell them you have contcted the farm and they have solidified the story as is and have identified that it is said filly but are unwilling to sign over the papers.
If the owners are unwilling to hand over the papers question them as to why they are nt willing to hand over the papers. if its because they would rather not see her race or breed, i would respect that.
Honestly, if she came out of camelot and she’s only a yearling i wouldbt put her in a racing/breeding situation. if youre looking to turn around and sell her as such a prospect…she’s probably going to end up back in the situation she came from at some point. its not gauranteed but its a strong possibility.
Honestly, if you can positively identify the filly with her freeze brand, there is no need to have the papers in hand. you know who she is, you know where she came from, and you know her breeding. you dont need anything else than that
I do side with those who say you dont have the right to the papers. if you bought the filly from the farm directly, then yes, you would have the right to the papers. obviously the farm retained her papers for some sort of reason. you did not purchase her from the farm and the farm is the last listed owner. they have the right to retain them if they choose to protect her from ever racing or breeding.
maybe you could ask the farm to relinquish her papers on the terms that they write across the papers that this filly is to never race or breed, have it signed by those responsible at the farm, notorized and dated, etc.
I think the new current owner is trying to get ahold of the papers to turn aorund and sell the filly to race/breed to try and make a quick buck now…and thats not fair to the filly (at least i dont think so).
call the trotting assoc. and see what they say. call the farm and see if they will relinquish them on the terms that the filly is to never race or breed for the purpose of racing.
Mark you calenders, folks, I agree with farmgirl–if she’s at Camelot, the odds are VERY high she is not worth racing OR breeding as an STB (breeding, if she turns out to be a suitable, for a pleasure horse, you don’t need papers.) I also agree it certainly sounds like, now that she’s got a “bargain”, your friend wants to flip the mare or breed a sales prospect.
Being registered didn’t stop her ending up there in the first place. And you know who she is. I’d call the USTA and see what they can do about getting her pleasure registered if you (or your friend) desperately want some kind of papers. As it is, you know her name, and presumably she’s not going to end up back at a bottom-end auction with this owner, right?
Farms don’t dump or give away horses they think have a reasonable chance of being worth something to race or breed. As mentioned, the papers are likely being held because spaying a mare not worth breeding is a risky, expensive surgery, not just to be obnoxious.
[QUOTE=danceronice;4941368]
Mark you calenders, folks, I agree with farmgirl–if she’s at Camelot, the odds are VERY high she is not worth racing OR breeding as an STB (breeding, if she turns out to be a suitable, for a pleasure horse, you don’t need papers.) I also agree it certainly sounds like, now that she’s got a “bargain”, your friend wants to flip the mare or breed a sales prospect.
Being registered didn’t stop her ending up there in the first place. And you know who she is. I’d call the USTA and see what they can do about getting her pleasure registered if you (or your friend) desperately want some kind of papers. As it is, you know her name, and presumably she’s not going to end up back at a bottom-end auction with this owner, right?
Farms don’t dump or give away horses they think have a reasonable chance of being worth something to race or breed. As mentioned, the papers are likely being held because spaying a mare not worth breeding is a risky, expensive surgery, not just to be obnoxious.[/QUOTE]
This is not quite true that farms dump only the low end bottom of the barrel horses. There are any number of reasons why well bred horses end up at auctions, the owners could have died, the heirs have no interest, the farm could be culling for financial reasons, etc. There was a young stallion recently found at New Holland who was of valued enough bloodlines that the rescue was being asked to sell him for $40,000. I do not know if she did so but there you are. If the filly is registered she should have the papers with her, no matter how she got where she went, unless stolen. If there needs to be a legal attachment to do so, just do it. Contact USTA, if she were a thoroughbred you could apply for copies of the papers as lost. She is her horse now, and all of her history should come with her.
She could not get papers for a TB by saying they were lost unless she forged the owners name on an affidavit stating how the papers were lost.
Did you read USTA’s note on what KIND of papers they’ll give an auction rescue? Not the ones the new owner suddenly wants–the ones that allow racing or breeding for the racing market. In this case, they apparently know where she came from, there’s no indication the owner died, and if they were liquidating stock with VALUE, Camelot is not the place to get it. Nowdays you’d be lucky to get $500 running them through a bottom of the barrel kill sale. Never mind GIVING her to someone, which is what the breeders seem to have said happened.
And if she were a Thoroughbred, the Jockey Club would require a fairly steep fee and written proof from the last owners to have the papers that the papers were lost-not that they wouldn’t hand them over, but gone. The old owners have no obligation to provide that proof, and if they don’t you’re still SOL. (Of course a TB owner who REALLY doesn’t want a horse bred or raced could just surrender the papers to the JC, and no one would ever get them. I don’t know if USTA has anything like that.)
S/he has the horse’s identity, for what that’s worth. The horse is freeze-branded and apparently has a name. But the breeders didn’t breed her to toss her–if they gave away a yearling, the odds are pretty damn high they thought she was a losing proposition. Why would the USTA or anyone want to put that back into the gene pool because someone picked her up cheap and now wants to make a buck on her? Because really, that’s the only reason to need the papers. Knowing who they are is cool–that’s where tattoos and brands help. The only reason to NEED the papers in hand is for breeding or racing. Someone from an apparently well-known farm seems to have figured this filly wasn’t even worth the effort to sell, never mind race or keep around.
Really, I don’t see the OP’s friend covered in glory here. S/he bought what they thought was a QH with no papers, now it’s a STB from a big-name farm, and suddenly she’s going to race it or breed it for racing and needs the papers? It needs the “protection” of having papers–what, if the new owner can’t make money on her are they going to send her back to auction? The horse had an identity, that did nothing to ‘protect’ it. She wants to protect it? Train it as a solid citizen riding horse and don’t sell it without knowing who’s buying and getting a bill of sale.
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My friend has no interest in racing or breeding, just wants the papers to protect the horse in the future. It’s no guarantee, but papers can help.
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Lots of perfectly lovely horses get dumped for all kinds of reasons. Let’s not only ascribe pure, above-board, legitimate reasons to breeders. We don’t know the situation or the motives. Since everyone is speculating this filly is a POS, she was said to toe out slightly and not the best temperament. She’s hot and hot tempered. She has received excellent hoof care, grown some and does not have a noticeable toe out now. There have been some very successful race horses that have had less than stellar conformation and some with stellar conformation that haven’t done anything on a track; just to defend this poor filly. Toeing out is hardly a reason to send her to an auction where she would go to the meat man.
If the racing breeds are ever to be safe from slaughter when they can’t race, they need to be used for other purposes and recognized as TBs or STBs. For example, breed shows (there are starting to be a few TB shows) and other careers where people will see that they have other talents/uses. That requires that they be definitively recognized for the breed they are. It is also helpful for their breeding to be known. I know that there are certain TB stallions known for producing good eventers, hunters, etc. It is very helpful for these horses to be recognized for who they are if they end up in low end auctions or with low end dealers. Trainers can then identify these prospects and buy them. The same could become true for STBs. People need to begin to see STBs as useful for more than trotting or pacing in harness so that there is a market for them off the track. I have a STB gelding who is a marvelous saddle horse with gorgeous gaits. Personally I think that STBs have the potential. Who says that some STB stallions couldn’t have other markets for their get? But, folks again need to see them performing and know who they are and what their lineage is.
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I believe that the USTA does give papers that clearly state no racing or breeding; they are pleasure only papers. I believe those are the papers that are offered to rescues.
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I guess I was mistaken to post a thread on the racing forum and expect anything other than defense of breeders.
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Thanks for all your input, we’ll proceed on our own now.
I don’t see it so much as defending breeders as it is saying she bought the horse as is and now that she thinks the horse is better than she thought she was all of a sudden she wants something she did not purchase ie the papers. If the horse is hot tempered like you say the chances of finding her a good home with or without papers is remote.
The filly has a good home!!! Re-read the above post! She wants the papers to show the filly and advertise that STBs (just like TBs) are quality horses suited for a second career… I hope they get the pleasure papers. Good luck OP!
I really am confused as to why OP and her friend feel that the horse’s papaers will be so beneficial.
Why is there the feeling that papers will protect the horse, especially if there is no interest in racing and breeding?
If the racing breeds are ever to be safe from slaughter when they can’t race, they need to be used for other purposes and recognized as TBs or STBs. For example, breed shows (there are starting to be a few TB shows) and other careers where people will see that they have other talents/uses. That requires that they be definitively recognized for the breed they are. It is also helpful for their breeding to be known.
This mare is easily identifiable from a freeze brand so she should be able to be recognized as a STB even without papers.
