How to get papers on STB from kill pen?

[DickHertz]

[QUOTE=ptownevt;4941204]

The filly’s registered name includes Blue Chip in it; that indicates she belonged to Blue Chip. Blue Chip has confirmed she was theirs. The span of time from when she was at Blue Chip and when she went up for bid at Camelot is short. The barn manager admits giving her away to someone, but, interestingly, no one knows who he gave her to. Isn’t this exactly the scenario that we see over and over with race horses? “Oh, I gave him/her to some one who was supposed to give him/her a good home. I don’t know how he/she could have ended up a few days later in a kill pen.;)” Oh, please.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Don’t you know, it’s hard to remember where each horse is placed, err, which meat man came for the pickup. :rolleyes:

[caffeinated]

@RockinHorse;4942686

Why is there the feeling that papers will protect the horse, especially if there is no interest in racing and breeding?
.

It’s pretty basic - whether it makes sense or not, in a lot of circles having papers makes a horse more valuable. If, in the future, the current owner wants to sell the horse or rehome it, having papers could make that easier or give the horse more value. And a horse with more value (papers, training, ridability, etc) is a horse that has more of a measure of ‘protection’ as it has qualities that people want.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=caffeinated;4942778]
It’s pretty basic - whether it makes sense or not, in a lot of circles having papers makes a horse more valuable. If, in the future, the current owner wants to sell the horse or rehome it, having papers could make that easier or give the horse more value. And a horse with more value (papers, training, ridability, etc) is a horse that has more of a measure of ‘protection’ as it has qualities that people want.[/QUOTE]

Except the horse’s ID is quite clear. She’s of no value as a racehorse and AFAIK you can’t have a STB inspected for a warmblood book (the only non-racing-related reason I can think you need TB papers.)

Right now, she’s worth what was paid for her, and being a well-bred STB with no racing, apparently no reason to blow money training her for racing, and not sufficiently well-bred or built to keep around to raise as a broodmare all did nothing to protect her. The single best thing the new owner can do is train her. Around here, most people just don’t give a crap if a breed (especially a gaited or harness breed) has any paperwork–they only care how useable she is. A horse who can be ridden or driven has value, whether she has paperwork or not. One with no miles? No value.

OP: You KNOW who the mare is and for anyone who actually cares that mark is going to be visible on her forever in the form of the brand. As for showing people how good she can be, first, you don’t know that she is any good and won’t until she’s trained to do something useful, and second, I have never had anyone ask to see my OTTB’s papers or tattoo–they just ask “What breed is he?” “Oh, he’s a Thoroughbred.”

And again, why is this such an issue? It’s not like the friend went out and deliberately chose a STB in some quest to prove how useful they can be outside harness racing. She bought what she thought was an unpapered QH and who, auctions being what they are, could have been ANYTHING. If people ask what she is, you tell them. If breeding and selling and racing is not and never will be an issue, then going chasing after papers, accusing the breeders of deception, or not just taking the pleasure registry that USTA offers for horses in exactly this situation seems questionable.

Heck, have you tried offering the breeders money for the papers? If it’s SO IMPORTANT that she MUST have papers, offer 'em $50 or $100. Probably not per the rules (at least the JC forbids selling foal papers separately, don’t know USTA’s rules.) But if the new owner is so desperate to have them for totally altruistic reasons, can’t hurt asking.

[caffeinated]

@danceronice;4942957

Except the horse’s ID is quite clear. She’s of no value as a racehorse and AFAIK you can’t have a STB inspected for a warmblood book

Yeah but the same thing happens with TBs all the time. We know their ID from their tattoo number. We can tell everything about the horse including all the times it raced, where it was born, any sales it went through, etc, etc, just from that number. But a surprising number of people seem to think the papers are REALLY important. Even on geldings, for whom breeding issues certainly aren’t a factor…

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=caffeinated;4943000]
Yeah but the same thing happens with TBs all the time. We know their ID from their tattoo number. We can tell everything about the horse including all the times it raced, where it was born, any sales it went through, etc, etc, just from that number. But a surprising number of people seem to think the papers are REALLY important. Even on geldings, for whom breeding issues certainly aren’t a factor…[/QUOTE]

The point is, though, they’re kinda nice to have, but it’s neither a moral or legal imperative. The owners don’t want to hand 'em over, fine, unless there is a USTA rule saying they MUST, move on with your life. With this horse, it was only because of the brand they even knew papers existed, after purchase–why the rush now and why the mention of breeding or race training in the first post (nice backtrack, OP, btw.) The “protection” argument is bogus–how many horses end up AT the auction with papers in hand, and how many times have we heard about someone fishing papers out of a trash can when the horses were bought headed for the truck? Not to mention the AC4H listings where they have indicated they don’t even thing the papers belong with that horse? Tattoos and freeze brands at least can’t be lost. One can’t even argue that it’s all about “outing” the breeders (who have, let’s remember, done nothing illegal by giving the horse away) as, with the freeze brand, they’ve been ‘outed’ already.

The only real protection the horse can have is being trained to be useful and having an owner who isn’t going to just hand them off without keeping track. If the horse had in fact been what the auction thought it was (an unregistered QH) then the entire issue wouldn’t even be an issue. How do you protect that horse?

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;4941746]
She could not get papers for a TB by saying they were lost unless she forged the owners name on an affidavit stating how the papers were lost.[/QUOTE]

Not true. According to the Jockey Club website, in the event of a sheriff’s sale or similiar, or in the event of a non-appealable court order, papers will be reissued.

If she wants the papers she will need to pursue the legal aspect. I do not know what the big deal is, if the person wants the papers, and there is a way to do so, she should have the papers. Of course training protects the horse, but so does it’s history, not just some tattoo or freezebrand.

[Patty_Stiller]

The papers would really help to safeguard this filly in the future and would allow someone to either train and race her or use her as a broodmare.
WRONG. Thousands of well bred, papered horses get neglected and abused in many ways every day in this country. Papers do not insure care. And you think that racing “safeguards” a horse? Or that broodmares never get neglected or abused?
That said,the former owners likely wanted for whatever reason to insure that the filly never got raced or bred and therefore sent her to the sale sans papers. I have sold horses to private parties in the past and done the same and also called the breed association and had the papers canceled so no one could ever get duplicates. I did it to insure the horse did not ever turn up on the track again or get bred. Your friend got what she paid for, a non registered auction horse.

[RockinHorse]

@danceronice;4943103

The only real protection the horse can have is being trained to be useful …

I agree, good training is some of the best protection you can give a horse.

[Laurierace]

I can’t find my papers for AP Indy. Better get busy getting duplicates…
She did not buy a registered horse therefore she is not in any way entitled to her registration papers. She bought meat on the hoof that thankfully isn’t going to be utilized for meat anytime in the near future.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Patty Stiller;4943275]
WRONG. Thousands of well bred, papered horses get neglected and abused in many ways every day in this country. Papers do not insure care. And you think that racing “safeguards” a horse? Or that broodmares never get neglected or abused?
That said,the former owners likely wanted for whatever reason to insure that the filly never got raced or bred and therefore sent her to the sale sans papers. I have sold horses to private parties in the past and done the same and also called the breed association and had the papers canceled so no one could ever get duplicates. I did it to insure the horse did not ever turn up on the track again or get bred. Your friend got what she paid for, a non registered auction horse.[/QUOTE]

Breeders did not send her to the sale. They claim they “gave her to someone”, but did not know who, I don’t think they give a hoot what happened to the horse.

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=ptownevt;4940906]
The papers would really help to safeguard this filly in the future and would allow someone to either train and race her or use her as a broodmare. She is very, very well bred. She has the right to be known by her real name and my friend has the right to the benefits of having her papers. She bought her, quarantined her and paid for long distance shipping.
Thanks for your help.[/QUOTE]

No one needs to race or breed this filly. If your “friend” is really the Christmas angel, the best thing she can do for this young horse to to give her good training. That, more than papers, will help this filly throughout her life.

And the horse couldn’t care less about the “right to be known by her real name”. That is a corky thing to say.

[Timex]

I think, OP, what got to people was the idea that your friend thinks she has the ‘right’ to the filly’s papers. She bought what was beleived to be an unpapered grade filly. Now she finds out that the filly came from an apparently well known farm, and you say she has the ‘right’ to her papers? To be perfectly honest, and rather blunt, your first post sounded greedy. I have TBs with no papers. I know who they are, even without a permanant marking (no tattoo or freeze brand), and no one has ever questioned it. And it hasn’t kept them any more or less safe than one with papers.

[ASB_Stars]

I am, admittedly, quite silly, about this topic. I firmly believe that a horse is entitled to keep their identity throughout their lifetime. It is not an issue for me about what the person who buys the horse out of one of these situations is entitled to- it is about this horses birthright.

Now, as stated, this might be flat silly for many people, and deeply anthropomorphic for others, but I really wish that breed registries would require chipping as part of the registration process. For TBs, STBs, and ASBs-- along with all of the others-- if someone at a sale identified “Brownie”, and someone who cared deeply for “Brownie”, at some point in his life, was able to know that the horse in the picture, looking exceptionally forlorn was their buddy, or get word to someone else who cared, that is a big step back to the world of caring horse owners for “Brownie”.

In addition, these horses come from SOMEWHERE, and often that does matter, for any number of reasons, sentimental, and otherwise.

In any event, people who purposefully sell horses sans papers make me ill, and where these horses wind up makes me even moreso.

[DandyMatiz]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;4944181]
I am, admittedly, quite silly, about this topic. I firmly believe that a horse is entitled to keep their identity throughout their lifetime. It is not an issue for me about what the person who buys the horse out of one of these situations is entitled to- it is about this horses birthright.

Now, as stated, this might be flat silly for many people, and deeply anthropomorphic for others, but I really wish that breed registries would require chipping as part of the registration process. For TBs, STBs, and ASBs-- along with all of the others-- if someone at a sale identified “Brownie”, and someone who cared deeply for “Brownie”, at some point in his life, was able to know that the horse in the picture, looking exceptionally forlorn was their buddy, or get word to someone else who cared, that is a big step back to the world of caring horse owners for “Brownie”.

In addition, these horses come from SOMEWHERE, and often that does matter, for any number of reasons, sentimental, and otherwise.

In any event, people who purposefully sell horses sans papers make me ill, and where these horses wind up makes me even moreso.[/QUOTE]

The horse is not being deprived of her identity. She is easily and readily identifiable. (Freezemarking has a way of doing that). But, obviously her breeders felt that she, however well bred, was not of sufficent quality to put race training into, or to wait on and become a broodmare. Personally, I commend that, as far far too many breeders would just have sold her to someone else as a broodmare. perhaps if spaying were a better option this wouldn’t happen as much, etc. But right now, there aren’t many options to sell a horse (or give it away) with papers, and Not have someone use it for breed or race.

[ptownevt]

[QUOTE=DandyMatiz;4944192]
The horse is not being deprived of her identity. She is easily and readily identifiable. (Freezemarking has a way of doing that). But, obviously her breeders felt that she, however well bred, was not of sufficent quality to put race training into, or to wait on and become a broodmare. Personally, I commend that, as far far too many breeders would just have sold her to someone else as a broodmare. perhaps if spaying were a better option this wouldn’t happen as much, etc. But right now, there aren’t many options to sell a horse (or give it away) with papers, and Not have someone use it for breed or race.[/QUOTE]

I guess slaughter has a good side. It lets individuals make their decisions final. Better to send a yearling to slaughter than taking the chance that someone else might see something in the horse that they didn’t. But, doesn’t that happen all the time? Isn’t that one reason why they call it a horse race? Why some trainers make reputations with claimers? While this breeding facility’s opinion should be respected it is not the be all and end all. It is possible for them to be wrong. If only perfectly conformed horses with perfect temperaments could stay alive to race and/or reproduce, we would never have had Seabiscuit or many others. Whatever you think about me or my friend, this filly has the right to grow up and see what she can do in any number of disciplines. There are two issues here. One is the papers; the other is throwing away a healthy yearling in a manner that almost guaranteed she went to slaughter. I don’t think that you can practice the second and insist on the right to determine who should or should not have the horse’s papers. I agree that nothing insures a horse’s safety, but every advantage helps.

I could commend the breeders had they made an attempt to place her in another career path instead of an under the table trip to Camelot. There are STB rescues that I’m sure would have listed her. Perhaps they could have listed her and given her some time to find a home. If they had done that I would feel a whole lot better about their “rights”.

[danceronice]

Seabiscuit should have been gelded and would have likely been a better horse sooner (and would have been no loss to the breed as he was drastically unspectacular sire whose line is basically dead.) He also raced in a day where there was a market for middle of the road racehorses or late bloomers. But that’s as may be.

THE HORSE HAS ITS IDENTITY. That is far more than the buyer could have hoped given that she bought a grade meat horse. And as their name will forever be attached to her the breeder has a right to cull their mistake and make sure it’s not passed on. Also, if you honestly think everything that hits the ground out of a mare registered in a racing breed “deserves” to get tried on the track, you’re nuts. Racing is a BUISNESS. It costs a lot of money to put a horse in training. There is no point in throwing away money on the off chance that this one MIGHT be the .0001% who turns out to really be a great winner after all. Also, what planet are you living on that rescues are taking in everything that comes down the pike these days? Or that every farm has money to flush down the toilet keeping a horse around, feeding it, vetting it, until they can give it away or sell it at a massive loss after spending money on care?

Seriously, some of the posters around here make me wonder what majikal butterfly-farting world people are living in that horses cost nothing to keep and people who are in the BUSINESS of racing are supposed to keep everything for life and treat every animal like it’s Secretariat and track it for life and make sure that nothing bad ever happens to it. It’s a business. It costs money to run. Horses are debits and keeping one around that doesn’t have any real chance of offsetting those costs might be logical if you’re a nose-kissing hobbyist like most of us on here, but not if you are trying to come in at the end of the year in the black.

Not to mention that it’s pretty easy to get Judgy McJudgeypants on race breeders and owners who permanently identify their horses with freeze brands or tattoos so that anyone who bothers to check knows exactly who the animal is. What if this was a grade mare, as she was sold? Who do you string up then? Could she never be all she can be because she was bred in someone’s backyard and you would never know where?

And she now CAN “be all she can be”. As a pleasure horse. Or a show horse. Or standing around in a pasture eating her fool head off for the rest of her life. The horse doesn’t give a crap one way or the other. Your friend got a bargain and gets the warm fuzzies of having rescued her at a markup. You want to judge breeders who cull stock? Give them a direct market instead of waiting until someone like AC4H can put a “OMG BUY IN THREE DAYS OR THEY ALL DIE!” sign on them. Either show up at the auction and outbid the brokers or buy from the breeders at a fair market value. Or “rescue” a horse, feel good around yourself, and try and make a solid citizen of it, and forget about trying to score points off the breeders or think you’re going to get the next Greyhound or Seabiscuit out of a kill pen. You want a racehorse or a quality brood mare, go to a breeder and pay up. You want a cheap rescue, take it for what it is and hope you’re not getting something worse than you bargained for.

[2ndyrgal]

well said.

Having been at the track, I can assure you that the filly does not care as long as she’s warm, safe, dry and has enough to eat. A buddy would be nice.

A thousand or so years ago, we domesticated horses. Most of them, to my continued amazement, let us do damn near whatever fool thing we want with them. Without trying to kill us. Some of them, actually enjoy being racehorses. You’d be really, really surprised, how many do not. 23/5 hrs per day in a stall, with no turn out, no pasture buddies. I once took care of a 5Kclaimer STB, on the track. For 3 years. During this time, he raced, every single week, without a break. He was, a “grocery getter”. Hardly ever won, but did his best, almost always “got a check”. I spent more time rubbing on his legs, which looked like champagne bottles, than I did jogging him.

When we had an unusual 3 week break between tracks, we went to a little training farm in my home town. They had paddocks with real grass. I led this big old gelding straight off the truck, through the nearest gate, and slapped him on the ass. The trainer had a fit. Til I reminded him this horse had worked for 3 years without a break. Many of them never get a break.

Believe me when I say this. What your friend did was rescue a cute filly that wasn’t even big enough to bring a good meat price. She doesn’t need papers.
That filly doesn’t know how much you paid, and she never met her daddy, so give her a good life and go on with it. Papers are, believe me, no guarantee, nor is the racetrack, but don’t get me started on the number of horses I’ve bought just to get them away from some asshat. But that’s in every, single discipline in the horse industry. Period. All. of them.

[ASB_Stars]

I’m on my way out the door, but I wanted to make a quick comment- first, the attitude here seems to be “YOU got a CHEAP horse- so, who the heck are YOU to ask for PAPERS?” which I find condescending, and, frankly, assinine in this day and time…and second-- I still believe, fervently- that every single horse deserves their identity from the beginning, to the end, regardless of use.

Seabiscuits testicles may not have been what got him into the hearts and minds of people, but at least we know who he WAS.

[DandyMatiz]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;4944446]
I’m on my way out the door, but I wanted to make a quick comment- first, the attitude here seems to be “YOU got a CHEAP horse- so, who the heck are YOU to ask for PAPERS?” which I find condescending, and, frankly, assinine in this day and time…and second-- I still believe, fervently- that every single horse deserves their identity from the beginning, to the end, regardless of use.

Seabiscuits testicles may not have been what got him into the hearts and minds of people, but at least we know who he WAS.[/QUOTE]

The horse has her identity!!! It is known who she is. It’s not in question. The question is, as a cull, should she have the registration papers with her, which would allow her to be raced and bred? I’ve never known a business to purposely lose money… so if she is that great (good enough to race or to be of breeding stock) then she would most likely have them. There are a wealth of other jobs that her papers are not required for… including pleasure riding, driving, embryo transfer recip mare, etc. She can have value as a non-breeding animal. And that is all you need the registration in your name for.

[Las_Olas]

Someone please explain to me the difference between identification via tattoo/freezebrand and identification via papers. Unless you are going to staple the papers to the horse’s ass, I would think that the tattoo/freezebrand form of ID would be much more reliable. Neither this filly, or her little pasture pals, can read either her freezebrand or her papers, so having the latter is superfluous. Her “identity” is plastered on her body.

Just as the breeder has the right to make the decision to breed the mare in the first place, they also have the right to not register the resulting foal, euthanize it, or not pass on the registration papers. She did not buy this horse on a contract with a right to registration.

As an aside, my boyfriend used to be a resident Vet for a prominant standardbred farm and knows the Blue Chip people. He said to check the stifles on that filly, as they usually give them away if they have stifle OCD’s severe enough to keep them from the races. Could be something is cropping up in the family too often and they don’t want her bred to propagate the defect.

ETA - Blue Chip has a solid reputation in the industry. It would be surprising if they knowingly sent the filly to auction. They would rather euthanize a horse that is unsuitable for adoption, so I can’t see them trying to get a couple hundred bucks out of her. Not sure how much time elapsed from when they gave her away to her ending up there, but my guess is they were fleeced by someone saying they had a good home (possibly a farm groom, groom’s friend, etc), and maybe were lacking in their due diligence.