Yeah, this. I am betting that filly has a huge hole in her somewhere not readily visible. Chances are she is already, or has potential to be unsound somewhere.
I kinda figured freeze branding before being granted registration would come back to bite both associations in the ass at some point, but not this fast.
At any rate, it is impossible to get a reg certificate unless the last listed owner is willing to sign the transfer and in this case, they are not willing.
[QUOTE=Las Olas;4944672]
Someone please explain to me the difference between identification via tattoo/freezebrand and identification via papers. Unless you are going to staple the papers to the horse’s ass, I would think that the tattoo/freezebrand form of ID would be much more reliable. Neither this filly, or her little pasture pals, can read either her freezebrand or her papers, so having the latter is superfluous. Her “identity” is plastered on her body.
Just as the breeder has the right to make the decision to breed the mare in the first place, they also have the right to not register the resulting foal, euthanize it, or not pass on the registration papers. She did not buy this horse on a contract with a right to registration.
As an aside, my boyfriend used to be a resident Vet for a prominant standardbred farm and knows the Blue Chip people. He said to check the stifles on that filly, as they usually give them away if they have stifle OCD’s severe enough to keep them from the races. Could be something is cropping up in the family too often and they don’t want her bred to propagate the defect.[/QUOTE]
Happened to quite a few Arabian farms back in the day, before the SCID test was available too. Breeders didn’t want that remaining in the pb gene pool (i dont think anyone knew how widespread, and easily dealt with, it is, at the time). So a lot of mares that were gorgeous, and no one would think anything was wrong, well bred… were eliminated from breeding programs. No one wanted to chance them passing the gene on.
I, for one, don’t have a problem with them asking for the papers. What I do take issue with is the assumption that the OP and friend have a right to the papers.
[quote=ptownevt;4940906] She has the right to be known by her real name and my friend has the right to the benefits of having her papers. She bought her, quarantined her and paid for long distance shipping.
[/quote]
[quote=ptownevt;4941204]She is the current legal owner of the filly and as such has the right to her papers.
[/quote]
[QUOTE=sk_pacer;4944688]
Yeah, this. I am betting that filly has a huge hole in her somewhere not readily visible. Chances are she is already, or has potential to be unsound somewhere.
I kinda figured freeze branding before being granted registration would come back to bite both associations in the ass at some point, but not this fast.
At any rate, it is impossible to get a reg certificate unless the last listed owner is willing to sign the transfer and in this case, they are not willing.[/QUOTE]
So, you’re saying that they can be freeze branded without having the registration completed first? Interesting. So, this filly may not even have registration papers???
it’s a possibility, but as the OP said the filly has a registered name… she probably is already. I wonder why more registries don’t allow breeders to “paper” spay a mare, so the foals aren’t registerable. maybe more people would send the papers with the females culled from the program then.
No, proof of freeze branding must be submitted before registration is granted. First you send in hair for DNA verification along with name choices. You then receive notice of pending reg along with approval or sorry try again with names and forms for branding Next, you send in proof of freeze branding and a copy will also be sent by the technician (MUST be Standardbred Canada or USTA technician, not just any old joe with a set of irons) and then, and only then will full registration be granted, along with either the certificate or electronic registration - owner’s choice. A farm such as Blue Chip will do everything by the book; guaranteed that filly HAS papers but it is at owner’s discretion to sell papered or not, like any other breed.
If this horse had been a QH as they thought they bought, of non-stellar bloodlines and unbreedable for some reason, would they still be this concerned over the papers?
If this filly ends up with a flaw that precludes racing and breeding, are those papers still important to them, and why?
I agree that they have every right to ask for the breeder’s asssitance in getting the papers, but they have no right to them just because they bought a unregistered “nobody QH” and paid for shipping and quarrantine and found out she’s “somebody”.
And what happens if breeders are forced to comply with registration requests? How many horses are going to be sent straight to slaughter (through a middleman, of course, to keep their hands clean) without even the slight chance of being picked up by a private party at auction? Is that any better?
I know she is registered, and looking through the 2009 fillies, I already have my suspicions about four fillies that may not be all they were thought to be.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;4944446]
I’m on my way out the door, but I wanted to make a quick comment- first, the attitude here seems to be “YOU got a CHEAP horse- so, who the heck are YOU to ask for PAPERS?” which I find condescending, and, frankly, assinine in this day and time…and second-- I still believe, fervently- that every single horse deserves their identity from the beginning, to the end, regardless of use.
Seabiscuits testicles may not have been what got him into the hearts and minds of people, but at least we know who he WAS.[/QUOTE]
I wholeheartedly agree. I think it is disgusting that the breeders let her go like that and without her papers it was pretty much a guarantee that she would go for meat. I am really having a hard time seeing the Blue Chip folks as the good guys and the person who thought she bought a “grade QH” and ends up with something different and now god forbid, wants the papers, as the bad, greedy guys.
They didn’t send her to auction. They gave her to someone. Big difference. There are many reasons not to send a horse with it’s papers, especially since it’s easy to prove the identity bc it’s freezemarked. No one needs papers to know who this filly is. They need them if they want to race her, or if they want to breed her. Something that the breeder, who’s choice it is, doesn’t think she is worthy of. That’s not saying the filly is a bad horse, and won’t be a wonderful companion and riding horse, and can’t live a productive life. She just isn’t, in there mind, breeding quality. AKC people have limited registration, at the breeders discretion. I wish horse registries, especially ones that are just pedigree based (no approvals) would as well.
OK, fine, they won’t hand over the papers. But would it be too much then to ask the breeder WHY they culled her from their herd? Maybe they did not sent her to the auction, but as someone said, there must have been a reason why they got rid of her. Is that also “classified information”.
I agree with whoever said that farms produce too many foals each year and THEY are responsible for these foals/horses. Without their intervention, the foal/horse/mare would not be there, but if there are no consequences, they will continue to do so. They can produce, produce, produce and then complain they can’t afford to keep/feed/train them. Something is definitely wrong here!
But I guess I will be told “it’s their prerogative!” Easy to lose all respect for breeders of any kind…
I’m not going to read all the posts… but I just want to mention a few things.
USTA is a great org to work with- give Ellen a call or email.
Thank you for giving a stb a chance and pulling her from auction.
Papers don’t mean much for standies not racing or breeding. I have papers on all my girls but I do not need them- as a matter of fact they are in the file cabinet and I haven’t pulled them out since I first put them it!. Regarless of someone else’s opinion on the subject- papers can and have been retrieved on stb’s that have changed hands several times w/o them. I don’t think the effort of doing has much value though- except to say “I have her papers”. For $20 you can get a pathways account and print out all sorts of info on the filly which is way more interesting and valuable than ‘papers’.
All breeding programs must cull. It could be, they just had better fillies, not that there is anything inherently wrong with her, just that she wasn’t the best she could be.
When breeding, you always hope to have a wonderful horse… the best of the breed. but in reality, rarely does it happen, if breeding the best horses that are proven over and over. Most geldings for example are gelded to cullt hem from the breeding programs. Now the benefit is not that many people want a stallion anyway, so it’s not as horrifying to them for some reason. But there are still mares that just don’t meet the breed standard close enough for a responsible breeder to use them. It is equally irresponsible to market that animal then, or sell it as, a breeding animal.
For mares sadly, ya can’t just chop off the dangly bits.
[QUOTE=caffeinated;4943000]
Yeah but the same thing happens with TBs all the time. We know their ID from their tattoo number. We can tell everything about the horse including all the times it raced, where it was born, any sales it went through, etc, etc, just from that number. But a surprising number of people seem to think the papers are REALLY important. Even on geldings, for whom breeding issues certainly aren’t a factor…[/QUOTE]
Even in my local dressage organization, once one competes above lollipop level, any horse who has been registered with ANY breed registry MUST provide a copy of those papers - regardless of gender.
Dee
[QUOTE=DeeThbd;4945291]
Even in my local dressage organization, once one competes above lollipop level, any horse who has been registered with ANY breed registry MUST provide a copy of those papers - regardless of gender.
Dee[/QUOTE]
Are you saying unregistered horses can’t compete in your “local dressage organization”? I find that odd. With the exception of breed shows, I’ve never been asked for my horse’s papers.
And who’s to say this filly is even registered? Quite likely she isn’t.
[QUOTE=RockinHorse;4944694]
I, for one, don’t have a problem with them asking for the papers. What I do take issue with is the assumption that the OP and friend have a right to the papers.[/QUOTE]
I mentioned that I am pretty anthrophomorphic about this, and I’ll take it a step further-- I am not stating that the people have a right to the papers. What I am actually saying is that no one should have the right to deny any horses complete identity- with papers-- throughout their lifetime.
I also take issue, in principal, with the idea that you can determine what a horse is going to be FOREVER and ALWAYS-- in all respects (performance, breeding, etc.) as a young horse, and make an unilateral decision that will perhaps negatively impact the quality-- even the duration-- of their life. My crystal ball is pretty foggy, and probably needs a trip to the shop, but I have seen too many horses change, one way or the other, as they go along. I would hate to have to play God, as apparently is being done in these cases.
ASB
The racing breed associations ie, the JC and the USTA, have made rules that assist responsible owners from having to transfer registration papers in order to prevent someone from either racing or breeding horses down the road. Well, like any non registered horse you can breed it.
Blue Chip Farms must have had a valid reason not to either send this filly to a Fall Sale or to keep her at home and breed her, or to race her. I think that your feelings that papers “must” accompany a horse throughout it’s lifetime is utter nonsense. I’ve retrained and rehomed dozens of OTTB throughout the years, not one single person ever asked for “papers”, just for a race record or an old win photo if I had one.
There is no particular competition format where it would be necessary to have this filly’s papers, even if she turned out to be the next GEM TWIST. You still know who her daddy was (she’s never met him by the way, poor little thing, perhaps THAT’s her problem) so if she ever turns out to be anything special, you’ll still know what her breeding is, since she’s freeze branded.
Unless you are planing to race or breed little Standardbred babies (which trust me, the world does not need any more common ones), you don’t need the papers.
You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not the right to change someone’s decision which trust me, they did not make lightly.
So your friend bought her, shipped her, and quarantined her? big deal, I bought and injured TWH filly off the FREEWAY, injured and bleeding, paid for the surgery, and gave her away to Spookhorse on this BB. I believe she has since rehomed her and she has gone on to be a nice little trail horse.
She never asked me for the papers.
I have them, but wouldn’t have given them over to anyone. She was not a good representative of her breed standard, in spite of turning out to be a useful little horse.
Really, you need to understand that just because you think someone is being a big meanie, you need to just get over it. You bought a horse represented as being a grade horse with no papers. Keep it and love it and go on with your life. Really. Not one person on here agrees with your theory.
[QUOTE=2ndyrgal;4946156]
The racing breed associations ie, the JC and the USTA, have made rules that assist responsible owners from having to transfer registration papers in order to prevent someone from either racing or breeding horses down the road. Well, like any non registered horse you can breed it.
Blue Chip Farms must have had a valid reason not to either send this filly to a Fall Sale or to keep her at home and breed her, or to race her. I think that your feelings that papers “must” accompany a horse throughout it’s lifetime is utter nonsense. I’ve retrained and rehomed dozens of OTTB throughout the years, not one single person ever asked for “papers”, just for a race record or an old win photo if I had one.
There is no particular competition format where it would be necessary to have this filly’s papers, even if she turned out to be the next GEM TWIST. You still know who her daddy was (she’s never met him by the way, poor little thing, perhaps THAT’s her problem) so if she ever turns out to be anything special, you’ll still know what her breeding is, since she’s freeze branded.
Unless you are planing to race or breed little Standardbred babies (which trust me, the world does not need any more common ones), you don’t need the papers.
You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not the right to change someone’s decision which trust me, they did not make lightly.
So your friend bought her, shipped her, and quarantined her? big deal, I bought and injured TWH filly off the FREEWAY, injured and bleeding, paid for the surgery, and gave her away to Spookhorse on this BB. I believe she has since rehomed her and she has gone on to be a nice little trail horse.
She never asked me for the papers.
I have them, but wouldn’t have given them over to anyone. She was not a good representative of her breed standard, in spite of turning out to be a useful little horse.
Really, you need to understand that just because you think someone is being a big meanie, you need to just get over it. You bought a horse represented as being a grade horse with no papers. Keep it and love it and go on with your life. Really. Not one person on here agrees with your theory.[/QUOTE]
I note the ASB at the top- is this to me?
If so, I don’t know the OP-- at all. I have expressed my opinion on the subject of any horse- at all- who has an identity, being sold with out it.
I have been open about the fact that some may find this over the top. While I have not actually expressed it, perhaps I should mention now that if you do not agree, I really, really, really don’t care. Public BB- my .02. Deal. And yes, at least one person has come out here, and agreed. Thanks, Calamber!
If this wasn’t to me. Damn.:lol:
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;4946191]
I note the ASB at the top- is this to me?
If so, I don’t know the OP-- at all. I have expressed my opinion on the subject of any horse- at all- who has an identity, being sold with out it.
:[/QUOTE]
But that’s the rub… This filly has an identity. And it’s plain to anyone who cares to check it out. She is freezemarked.
[QUOTE=DandyMatiz;4946255]
But that’s the rub… This filly has an identity. And it’s plain to anyone who cares to check it out. She is freezemarked.[/QUOTE]
That’s the weirdest thing about this (beyond thinking the horse has any idea who they are in the first place.) This horse HAS an identity on its neck or wherever they freeze brand it. Unlike the TB tattoos, you can even see it without having to fuss. So why are the papers so desperately important if she’ll never be bred as a Standardbred? If the Podunk Dressage Association wants actual paperwork, tell 'em she was sold through a kill broker and doesn’t have papers, and do they have something against rescues? (And if they do, come back on COTH and tell us.)
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