I have never seen this requirement before and I would love to know what association this is.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;4945575]
I mentioned that I am pretty anthrophomorphic about this, and I’ll take it a step further-- I am not stating that the people have a right to the papers. What I am actually saying is that no one should have the right to deny any horses complete identity- with papers-- throughout their lifetime.
QUOTE]
Completely agree with you. Selling horses without their papers is one of my biggest peeves.
Here’s a little story about a middle aged gelding. He is a registered horse and was successfully shown in halter as a stallion at breed shows. The owner gelded him a few years back and he’s just been a pasture pet since then. They could no longer keep him, (though I’m not sure why), and contacted us to see if we’d take him in and find him a good home. We talked about it and decided since he was a nice horse, with no health issues, we could make room for him, (though being a 12 year old unbroke gelding, finding the right home for him may take us a while).
We were told by the owner that they usually would not consider giving away a horse of his monetary value…(to which I ask myself, what exactly is the monetary value of a 12 year old unbroke gelding?). 
The basic feeling I got was that the owner felt they were doing us a favor by giving us this horse.
He did not come with his papers, nor his registered name. In asking his owner if the papers would go with the horse, I was told that they saw no reason for him to have his papers, as he’s no longer a breeding stallion. 
I responded that we feel a registered horse should be able to keep their papers and identity, and that since this is a nice horse, perhaps when he’s trained in the future, the new owner would be interested in showing him at breed shows under saddle, showmanship, or even in halter as a gelding. The owner is going to “think about it”.
:sigh:
He’ll be here until he finds a good home, papers or not. It just limits his prospects a bit IMO, and I can’t understand why his owner who cared about him very much, wouldn’t want him to retain his identity.
“You can’t ride the papers”. And there are many great unregistered horses out there. I understand that. With TBs and STBs you also may be able to find the horses’ history with the tattoo or freezebrand they have. However, the majority of registered horses we end up with are either AQHA, APHA or Arabian, in which case (other than 2 older Arabs that were freezebranded), we have no way of tracking down “who” the horse is, without their papers.
Papers show the horse’s actual birth date. They show their pedigree, and if the horse could possibly be a carrier for genetic disease in many cases, (HYPP, etc). They show previous owners you can contact with questions. They can be shown at breed shows, and are a way to see if the horse has a breed show record. While papers are no guarantee that the horse won’t end up in a bad situation, having papers in hand may make a difference in their lives, down the road.
We bought a mare once that was run loose through a sale barn and ended up at a local horse trader/kill buyer’s place. She was broke, she was an older Arab, that’s all we knew. The previous owners had forgotten to bring her papers to the auction, and after the sale they went to the trouble to mail them to the sale barn, who then sent them to the trader, who then mailed them to us. We then looked her up and found out she was a Regional WP champion in years past. That’s good to know! :yes:
Another example- we sold a mare in foal a few years back. She went to a good home that intended to keep her and her coming foal. Fastforward 3 years. We are planning to buy a group of older, well broke horses from a man we know. He tells us he also has a 2 year old colt for us. We go to pick up the horses and low and behold, we’re the registered breeders of the 2 year old. This is the resulting foal of the mare we sold 3 years ago. This poor colt was at a low-end auction a long ways away from us and was abandoned at the sale barn as the current owner didn’t get a bid on him. Sale barn owners asked the man we know if he’d take the colt. He looked at the papers, saw we were the breeders, and agreed to take him along. If this colt had not had his papers there would have been no way to identify him. No one would have known who his breeder was, nor anything about him. The man would not have taken him along. Where would he have ended up?
This is a decently bred, healthy, sound, kind and gentle colt. He needed groceries, but is coming along nicely and will be gelded within the next few weeks. I am thankful that his owner sold him with his papers which gave us a chance to get him back. He has no freezebrand, no tattoo, no other identification. I’m sure we’re not the only people on the planet that feel responsible for a life they caused to happen and we would in an instant take back any horse we were the breeders of. And thinking about it, probably any horse that has been registered to us as well.
Sorry for the book, and I’m extremely tired right now so if anything above doesn’t make sense, I apologize in advance. In getting back to the OP, I don’t see any reason at all why that filly shouldn’t have her papers with her. And I don’t think that just because she’s a STB that came from “Big-Name” farm is the only reason she’d like the papers. I think that if she’d found out she was a registered QH, Arab, Walkapintaloosa or whatever, she’d probably want the papers too. Because a registered horse should sell with their papers.
Basically just wanted to agree with ASB, and give a few examples. Speaking of ASB’s, I have one right now who I would love to identify, lol! Unfortunately, though he is a purebred Saddlebred and quite possibly had papers at some point, he was sold at our local auction as a grade “Arabian”. :lol:
Hey 1Sock- send me along some pix of that boy, and let’s see if we can ID him- need all markings, and approximate age.
On the subject of papers…some years back, I went to look at some ASBs at an Amish farm, to see who I could try to find homes for, in the sport horse world. One gelding that they pulled out was a big, handsome, game summabuck, who obviously had some serious training and breeding behind him.
He was not going to work as a sport horse, but he had a rack and trot on him- in a corn field, in plates, that just knocked my socks off. I asked about his papers. They told me that the dealer they got him from told them he had the papers, but that they would never, ever get them, because that was what the breeder wanted. The dealer sold many, many horses for this farm in a years time, apparently, and he was not going to cross them.
I called him- and offered him $$ for the papers. No dice. These people had decided, according to the dealer, that the horse was not going to win at the World Championships, so- buh-bye. In my breed, for many people, a horse is worth six figures, or nothing. They did not want him representing their stallion, and breeding program.
Now, with his papers, he could have gone back to the show world, and been a winner at all but three shows in the country, IMHO, and a ribbon winner at those three-- but without, he could not go back to the show world that he was born into, and deserved a place in. All because of the egos of some idjits in Kentucky. That just stinks.
Just curious, with no papers and no brand, how do you know he is a purebred Saddlebred?
The last $ quote I was given to spay a mare was $3000.00
It’s doubtful that a breeding farm throwing away their culls would bother. (And this barn manager should be ashamed)
On the other hand, many racehorse rescue organizations do not give adopters papers so that the they don’t go back to being raced or bred.
You know, Saggy and Joppy produced Carry Back…just sayin’…
[QUOTE=Lee Galen;4948970]
The last $ quote I was given to spay a mare was $3000.00
It’s doubtful that a breeding farm throwing away their culls would bother. (And this barn manager should be ashamed)
On the other hand, many racehorse rescue organizations do not give adopters papers so that the they don’t go back to being raced or bred.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention spaying a mare is major surgery that’s not easy on the horse.
And to the second point, good point. I bred something I didn’t want raced or bred for racing, assuming whatever is wrong isn’t bad enough I wouldn’t just have someone put a bullet between its eyes, I would not hand over JC papers and would not submit a ‘lost papers’ affidavit for them. If you aren’t going to race or breed them, you don’t need them.
For the auction horses–seconding the question of how you know the horse is really purebred anything with no tattoo or brand, and pointing out I recall at least one AC4H listing where the QH mare had papers, but AC4H was 99% sure they were the wrong ones. If I buy out of New Holland, Shipshewana, Sugarcreek, Unadilla, Camelot, Enumclaw–I’m buying a pig a poke. If I wanted something registered, I would buy from the breeder. I do ask for tats/names on TBs on the listings, but that’s because I have a couple particular horses I’m looking for. And if one of them came up, I would not be worried about whether his or her papers were still attached.
Keep in mind, folks, that any anecdotes you have aboutneeding/wanting papers because you don’t have any info about this, that or the other horse doesn’t fit this situation. The filly in question is very clearly identified by the brand on her neck. It isn’t like she can be mis-id’d.
I’ve read a lot of the TB and Saddlebred found-at-auction threads along with other threads about breed uses and evolution on the board. There seem to be a lot of people who are breeding within a breed for something different from the breed’s main focus. TBs the new owners wants to get approved in a WB registry is the first thing that comes to mind, but the sport Saddlebreds I think also fit that. The original breeder could be entirely correct in determining the horse shouldn’t be bred for the original goal, but the horse might still be very qualified for breeding or showing in a different category their own breeder isn’t qualified to evaluate it on.
Someone mentioned that no WB registries take Standardbreds, so that reason is out for this horse. I thought that this only left racing as a reason to use the papers (vs the freezebrand ID), but then I remembered the roadster classes at Devon. Here’s what USEF requires for horses to participate in this class:
“In order to compete all horses must be Standardbreds registered with the United States Trotting Horse Association or the Canadian Trotting Horse Association (exception: horses that have competed in any Roadster Division class at a Federation licensed event prior to December 1, 2003). The horse must be entered under the name(s) of the owner(s) of record with the United States Trotting Horse Association or the Canadian Trotting Horse Association. … At USEF licensed competitions, a copy of the registration papers showing proof of ownership must be submitted with entry form at the time of making entry or presented to the competition office before competition number will be released; competition management is responsible for notifying exhibitors of this requirement and horses may be inspected for proper identification at the discretion of horse show management.” (I can’t tell if the pleasure papers work for this, they might)
Now, sure, I doubt that’s what the new owners plan to do with the horse in the OP, and I agree that if you buy something without papers that’s exactly what you bought. But I agree with the people arguing that depriving a horse of it’s papers can limit its options in ways that have nothing to do with the breeder’s reason for culling.
It is my opinion that any registered horse should have the papers transferred with each sale whether or not it has its identity tattooed or branded on. I know my identity, but I like having my birth certificate. 
When I rehome or sell a horse I always attach a copy of the papers to the adoption agreement or bill of sale even if the buyer doesn’t want the papers. It seems to be a matter of preference. I’m one who prefers to have the papers if the horse is registered.
Breeders and owners should not be allowed to dump horses that don’t fit into their program, but since they do, they should at least give the horse a better chance by including the papers. One person’s trash is another’s treasure. Let the new person’s treasure have its papers!
And, clearly, there are those of us folks who feel that this filly’s papers, and those of all horses, should follow them throughout their lifetimes.
Feelings have nothing to do with law. The owners have no legal (and I would argue no moral) obligation to hand them over to someone who bought the horse as a grade QH site unseen from a low-end auction. If someone wants a papered show horse or broodmare, GO BUY ONE. If they want warm fuzzies for keeping an unknown quantity off the meat truck, take what you get and accept it may not have papers, may or may not be usable, may be sick, might be in foal to the donkey up the road–you don’t know.
Not to mention I still haven’t heard why the new owner wouldn’t be fine with the pleasure papers (that prevent them from registering USTA offspring) that USTA offers.
And if the breeders caught too much flack for this, I wouldn’t at all blame them for giving any future culls to huntmasters with hungry packs or exotic cat owners rather than letting them leave the property alive.
And besides, its like me saying I adopted a (supposed) pure bred dog from the pound, I have the right to its papers. Wtf?
Ah, well, here we go…once more into the breach! The position that you two, in particular, are taking presupposes a couple of fairly unfortunate things…
One, that if you wish to obtain a horse with papers, and correct provenance, well, dammit, YOU had better plan on PAYING for it! Certainly, papers have a value, but reasonably, they have no value sitting in a drawer, sans horse. What value is there in witholding them, other than just because you can. Do you really know, absolutely, that the animal you are selling has no value as a breeding, or performance horse? Well, then perhaps euthanasia would be more fair, because a horse in that state is really in trouble, already.
The second issue your position supports is that horses who are rescues, or found in challenging circumstances, or purchased from a dealer are not of sufficient value or quality to deserve to have their papers with them. Now, that is provably crap. There are a whole bunch of average horses out there- most of them grade- who wouldn’t have their papers, even in a booming economy. Then, there are those who have slipped through the cracks, for one reason or another, some who are the fall out from breeding programs that were on the bubble, and then the bubble burst, and a bunch who just got thrown away, by still wealthy, arrogant breeders (I am speaking of the breed I know best, ASBs).
What you are really saying is that if you are not going to go out and pay someone for a horse, with papers, you and the horse don’t deserve them.
And I’m calling that short sighted, elitist, and flat wrong.
The horse doesn’t have papers, deserve them, or care about them. The horse cares, inasmuch as that is possible, about having decent food and water in front of it this instant and not feeling in immediate danger. It does not know or care if it is registered, it has no sense of self in that respect, it does not know what was or was not going to happen to it. Horses don’t know what breed they are or what a registry is. Don’t anthropomorphize.
The problem is not that horses bought out of feedlots are inherently crap. The problem is someone suddenly acting entitled to the perks of buying a registered horse with value in its name who can produce offspring that are salable as registered animals when they bought an unknown cull off a cheap auction. Especially when there are specialized limited papers available that don’t seem to be good enough for some reason (which does kind of indicate the new owner suddenly sees a profit, because if all they want to do is show then having papers that don’t permit racing or breeding STB offspring shouldn’t be a problem.) They are making noise about “outing” an owner who’s done nothing illegal for not wanting an animal they produced bred or used as a racehorse. If they wanted a registered Standardbred, they should have bought one, and gee, maybe a breeder somewhere would have had a market for a cull instead of giving it away to someone who turned around and sold it per pound. They didn’t do that. They bought a god-knows-what out of a kill pen so they could feel good about themselves and so hopefully this horse could lead a productive life. The horse certainly can–papers do not magically make it rideable, they don’t make it well-conformed, and except in the unlikely event she’s going in ONE class at ONE show mentioned by name thus far, she doesn’t need USTA papers or to be able to race and produce racing foals do it.
People come on this forum and berate breeders for not taking responsibility and this one feels the horse is, for whatever reason, NOT a good candidate for racing and should not contribute to the breed’s gene pool. You honestly would rather the horse be dead? Because where I’m sitting, dead is dead, so if it’s better they be killed than not have papers might as well slaughter them for something–human food, dog food, whatever. Chemical euthanasia’s a waste of biomass, and the horse has no concept of death or post-mortem decay any more than it does papers, so it certainly doesn’t care. Maybe this breeder, again, should find a local hunt. Culls would probably go a long way to feeding hounds. Cull them fairly young and you wouldn’t have to worry about the drugs in the meat, either. Apparently no one wants to pay money for them unless it’s to a broker who is going to use that purchase price to buy another grade animal to stick on the truck, so someone might as well get some use out of them and then they won’t have to worry about being “outed” by someone who bought one of their horses from someone else and is now demanding they hand over papers so they can…race her? Breed her? Because that’s what the papers are for. They’re not horsey self-esteem certificates, they don’t keep horses out of slaughterhouses, and they don’t magically make a mare who isn’t a good candidate for racing and breeding suddenly worth something. They just make her uterus available for creating more registered offspring to sell who may or may not end up right back where she did.
The new owner should either contact USTA and see about getting the limited pleasure registry and accept that you don’t buy a Rosalind or Greyhound out of a kill pen, or just deal with having a grade mare, which is exactly what they thought they bought in the first place.
Please, don’t leap to conclusions. I did not say that I wanted the horse dead-- although there are alot worse things THAN dead.
Not all horses in kill pens are culls. A fabulous point was made by a poster, just a bit ago, that the breeders goals, and those of another end user, might not be the same. For me, a cull would be a horse who really, really has no use-- due to serious conformation, or psychological issues. But, most horses do have uses, don’t they? They just may not have a person who needs one more.
The horse doesn’t know about papers- they know about being taken care of, and valued. And, if a home that will do that because they DO have papers can be found, then that has an inherent value to their WELFARE, whether they know it, or not.
I hope that it makes you all warm and fuzzy to be able to call your FLTAP horse- who would be, what, a cull, by your definition?- by his name, and know who he is, and where he has been. You might not have wanted him, had not some responsible people stepped up, and kept him from the kill pen. I mean, then, he would have had no value at all, right? I mean, a cull without papers. Gee whiz!
I’m not argueing the fact that it would be nice to have the mare’s papers. BUT! She was bought without them, and now that the buyer thinks she might have something, she wants them, and the OP is throwing the breeders under the bus for something they might very well have nothibg to do with. And did anyone ever think that if they gave the filly away, the breeders might not have the papers anymore, anyway? What gets my goat is the sense of entitlement displayed by the OP and her friend, that the buyer has the ‘right’ to the fillys papers. And no one has yet to be able to prove how the filly’s identity can somehow be denied, with 2 inch high letters and numbers freeze branded on the side of her neck. Ever see an OTStb’s freeze brand? They’re hard to miss. So, is her I’d going to somehow be ‘stolen’? Or denied to her, somehow? Papers will not make her any more ‘safe’. Training, good care and handling will.
I know nada about Standardbreds, and their registry, but if the breeders were willing, couldn’t they get duplicates of the papers? I mean, if the filly wasn’t intended- by them- to be without her papers, couldn’t they restore them?
A cull is a failure of a breeding program–something a breeder gets that is not desirable and is removed before it can contribute to the gene pool. My horse is sort of a “cull” in that he’s a gelding (and therefore will never breed anything) but he’s not a cull in the sense a filly eliminated from a breeding program and kept out of race training is–he was bred to race, he served his purpose (more successfully than most) and was retired. Since he has no breeding value, he was sold off cheap to be a riding horse. I got a good deal as he’s smart and sensible, if not fancy–but if his vet check had been poor, if he’d had temperament issues, if he’d had some sort of injury, I’d have passed and moved on to the next one on my list to call about. I don’t get any warm fuzzies from buying him because I’m not operating under the delusion it’s a charitable act or that I’m somehow better than other people because I bought an ex-racehorse instead of a five-figure warmblood from a sale barn.
Yep, I have his papers, in a file drawer. I looked at them and his tat when he arrived, and stuck them back in the envelope they came in. I have my previous OTTB’s papers, too, in a file drawer at my parent’s where they’ve been since 1991 when we bought him. I don’t think we ever did much beyond glance at them and then stick them in a cabinet where they stayed 'til the day he died. He never knew or cared that we had a piece of paper from the Jockey Club that said he was named something we didn’t call him and was born in a state he hadn’t been in since age two. Lucky’s papers are likewise pretty meaningless–though they do mean if I were really demented I could put him back into training as a racehorse. The trainer who sold him to me would think that was pretty damn stupid, it wouldn’t be good for the horse, but I’ve got his foal papers signed over to me so I could do it. There’s nothing you can stick on them or write on them that would prevent me–in fact the JC would just say they were defaced. How exactly does this protect him? If anything having the Jockey Club destroy the papers would be a great deal safer for him. He’s still tattooed, but no papers means no racing.
Lucky’s not “safe” because he is a 2002 Florida-bred thoroughbred named Lucky To Cope who has papers to prove it. He’s “safe” because, first, FLTAP provides trainers a classified-ad service so they can sell directly to private buyers a lot farther afield than Farmington, NY rather than have to sell horses unfit for racing or breeding to anyone who’ll take them before the tracks close; second, because his trainer sold him based on a couple phone calls and an overnighted personal check to someone he’s never met and wouldn’t know from Adam; third, because he’s a damn smart horse who’s picking up riding training well and who can be handled safely by just about anyone. If I decided to sell him I doubt he would even have to leave the barn he’s at because he’s a solid citizen they like to work with. That last part, not having foal papers that are pretty meaningless now, is what will KEEP him safe.
Did I want his papers? Sure. Because I knew they existed and I knew EXACTLY WHAT HORSE I was buying. I was not buying a nameless animal out of a kill pen because I felt sorry for it, I was buying THAT SPECIFIC ADVERTISED INDIVIDUAL from a private seller. Not a solid bay gelding, TB, with tattoo that might match a horse named Lucky To Cope. If I go down to Shipsie for the horse sale and buy a horse for $20 out of the no-interest pen (the ones even the kill buyers don’t want and you can basically make the lot an offer) if it’s got papers, sweet. If it’s got a tattoo and I can maybe narrow down who the horse is through that, cool–I would probably ask on this forum if anyone knew the connections. If they still had the papers and wanted to send them, nice, if not–I still own the horse and that’s what I bought. I can look up his race record, see his pedigree, see where he was born, and know he’s a TB whether I have his papers or not. If the horse has no tattoo, no freeze-brand, no hot brand, no microchip, no distinguishing marks of any kind and the dealer got him at another sale three states away who has no record of who the consignor was–fine. I STILL OWN THE HORSE IN FRONT OF ME. That horse is safe because I bought it, for whatever reason, and I presumably want to make it a useful citizen.
I grew up riding grade ponies and horses who never had papers, some of whom my neighbor picked up at the kind of auctions we’re talking about–not because they had brands or tattoos, not because they might have papers that would make them really really valuable and OMG they could breed a baby to sell for racing, but because they were nice riding horses with good manners and he liked something about them. My brother lessons on a horse his barn got from the ASPCA who’s known as a god-knows-what–they have no idea what breed he is, where he came from originally, and only an estimate on age. He’s an awesome jumper, though, and not for sale at a price I can afford!
So how would you suggest that breeders prevent the a horse that doesn’t meet their purposes as breeders from being bred or used in that discipline (because USTA and the JC are there to register horses who will RACE)? They apparently gave the horse away unpapered on the assumption someone else DID have a purpose for her–but not what she was bred for and not something that they as STB breeders want to breed for. Breeds exist to maintain standards–dog breeders neuter and spay animals that aren’t show- or trial-quality as a condition of sales as pets. As mentioned, spaying is pretty tricky with horses. You don’t seem to think they should kill them. So would you buy a horse from a STB or TB breeder who says “This horse just isn’t good for racing, and they wouldn’t be worth breeding for racing, but you might make a show horse out of her, so we’ll sell her if you sign a contract saying you’ll never breed her for a racing foal”? Are breeders responsible for every foal they put on the ground as some people would like until the day that horse dies, but they don’t have the right to determine if it should be bred or registered? If you are TRULY never going to race the horse or breed her for racing, is having papers that don’t allow you to do anything else going to make you less likely to dump her at a low-end auction? If she was the grade horse she was advertised as, would the OP’s friend just dump her if she turns out to have issues, but if she’s got papers she’ll vet buyers and make sure she only goes to a good home?
The horse was sold as a grade QH, that’s what the person bought. They are not “entitled” to papers they have no use for from people they’ve never had anything to do with who obviously felt the filly did not belong in race training nor should she be used to breed more racehorses. As they bred her, that was their call to make–as someone said upthread they may not even have completed the registration process for her. What the buyer is entitled to is the filly she gave a horse dealer money for in the condition she was in at the broker lot. Just because now she suddenly might have more monetary value if they can get papers and either throw her on a track or put her to a racing stallion does not make her safe. What makes her safe is the people who own her NOW. I have to wonder at the motivations of people who think a horse is only safe if you have papers in hand. The papers don’t protect her. Her owner does.
I think some of you read King of the Wind at a very impressionable age!
