How to teach/learn diagonals?

[sascha]

@Willesdon

Because of when I ask for the strike off. Canter I can do, it is trot I have to check.

Oh, so you can see that you are right/wrong in trot? But can’t feel/get them without looking, etc?

If so, I have a (fun? I found it fun when I made myself do it after making students do it) game for you. Your horse must listen reliably to your leg in that there can’t be a variation in length of time between when you ask for trot and when you get it. If you’ve got that, the game is as follows.

Watch and feel the outside shoulder moving forward and back in the walk. Tell yourself (out loud or in your head) that the shoulder does exactly the same in trot. It doesn’t suddenly fly off and become a whirling dervish at the first trot step. It does exactly the same it does at walk. Then, imagine yourself rising with it on the first step of trot. Then ask your horse to trot and start rising on that very first step. You’ve go a 50/50 chance of getting it right. If it’s right, congratulate yourself. If it’s wrong, tell yourself, meh 50/50, repeat the mantra of the shoulder doing the same thing in that first step of trot and try again.

Repeat. If you are consistently wrong, see what happens if you change direction. Are you now consistently right? If so, your horse may be unevenly muscled, unevenly supple, lame, or somehow otherwise uncomfortable and therefore always “helping” you to stay on one set of diagonals by virtue of the fact that one set is more comfortable to ride than the other.

At any rate, playing with this exercise can be fun, informative, and once you get both directions consistently correct, it makes your riding look fabulous and avoids those first couple of awkward sitting trot steps which makes the whole picture prettier.

[sascha]

@HighpointHunter

It’s laughable that you think this is an issue with the trainer

No, no it is not. It is definitely a trainer issue. It should take no-one who is taught be a good teacher years of once a week lessons to learn their diagonals. It is an absolute fundamental that should not be glossed over.

Many, many of us started with years of once a week lessons and it was burned into our brains that diagonals are important for the welfare of the horse, they were our responsibility once we had been taught them and could consistently get them and could change them when we checked and found we were wrong. None of that took 3 years.

[MissusS]

Adult beginner here. I’ve been riding for 2.5 years and for the first LONG time (months, honestly - however much of it was at the start of covid so there were some weeks off while the world was sorting out what to do and so I didn’t get lesson time) I was taught on the lunge line. My trainer did what a PP mentioned and would say “now. now. now.” when I should be rising. Once I was off the lunge line and riding independently she had me practice changing my diagonal every x steps: ride 10 steps then change diagonal - repeat 5 times; ride 7 steps then change diagonal - repeat 7 times… etc. All that changing of the diagonal helped me personally get the feel of what was correct.
I ride an OTTB who has a very big trot but oddly enough it’s kinda tough to see his shoulder movement so “peeking down” didn’t really help me very much until I really had the FEEL. of it.

[trubandloki]

@sascha

It should take no-one

Well, aren’t you a little judgmental and forgetting that not everyone learns the same way and something that you might find to be easy might be literally impossible for someone else to figure out.
See my post further up thread. I know two very smart, very coordinated people who struggled with this. They both understood the concept so it was not the trainer failing them, it was their inability to figure out how to see what was going on and make their body do it. If told they were wrong they could bounce and change.

[darcilyna]

If you mean : “She needs to ride more often 3x a week is ideal.”. Or similar. PLEASE just say that.

I have admitted I don’t come from a horse background and am asking for input/help. Saying my thought process is laughable is unkind.

[MapleBreeze]

Do you look inside or outside?

[trubandloki]

@darcilyna, is your daughter taking group lessons or private lessons?

If she is taking group lessons it might be worth scheduling a private lesson for this challenge, where they work on feeling the horse and figuring out what is the best way for your daughter to try to learn to do her diagonals.

[darcilyna]

So I do apologize for making it seem like this is ONLY a trainer issue. Although I do think she has mainly ever been told to “change your diagonals” and not done any of the things that have been suggested through this thread to learn And practice diagonals. (Yes I am that mom who watches most lessons). She has been told by a more technical trainer at a trial lesson that “at this point in your riding you should not have to look for diagonals, you should just feel it.”. That was just one lesson and I would hope that technical trainer would address it more and break down the HOW if she were to take more lessons with them.

I would have to ask dd the questions y’all have asked to give clear answers and she doesn’t know I posted here might even be embarrassed so I’m going to wait to ask all those.

When I have talked to her she does understand the concept of diagonals and I think she gets them right by feel more than 50 % of the time. She knows how to FIX them. And how to look to check diagonals as well.

I think for her it is just putting it all together. Thinking about so much at once. And ALSO not being taught earlier on and repetitively practicing diagonals.

[roseymare]

Can she see which diagonal other riders are on? If she can’t try having her watch the hind leg. Maybe there is a disconnect of the entire concept and watching others will help. Just a thought.

Many great suggestions have already been made.

[darcilyna]

She prefers group lesson (usually with only one other rider at the moment). But yes it would make sense to do some privates to work more on this specifically.

[Arlomine]

I can’t count the number of people I have taught to post/find their diagonals. This is not a one size fits all situation.

I definitely first want to say that there are some very good riders who have struggled with their diagonals. I’m primarily a dressage trainer, and we break things down A LOT. We usually have five or six ways to teach one thing. And I have one student I will mention here… She is doing jumpers right now, is an incredible rider by feel, and for some reason this was one of the things that she struggled with. If this kid had been on an equitation track, she would’ve been held back and shamed. As it was, she progressed with this glitch that popped up at some embarrassing times… but every horse she rides loves her, and her substantial and talented warmblood jumper is one of them. So…don’t despair!

Some people learn it visually, some people learn it by feel, some people get a huge brain block about it because they’re so upset about “not getting it” (then it’s time to take a break from working on it).

Ask the teacher if they have an appropriate horse for a few longe lessons. If your kid is in a group lesson, frequently there just isn’t time to trailer instruction to somebody who is struggling with specific technical things. However, if the instructor hasn’t already suggested this… It implies that they don’t have an appropriate longe horse, they don’t have the skills to address it this way, or they just don’t have more than a few ways to teach diagonals.

The suggestions above that couple an arm movement with either inside or outside shoulder work really well. I really wouldn’t get hung up on which shoulder the kid clues into. I always wait and see if they are an “Iny” or an “outy”. If the instructor has not already tried this, she might get defensive if you suggest it… But it’s worth Bringing it up as an option.

Also, yes it is important for your daughter to get more time in the saddle. If she were taking piano lessons, you wouldn’t really expect her to make much progress past a certain point practicing once a week.

In my experience, kids get to a plateau in once a week lessons, and at that point they get discouraged because they can’t make more progress with no practice time. They take that on and think they suck as a rider, but it’s not them. It’s the circumstance.… So they quit.

Or their parents increase their lesson time, do a part lease, something…this keep the kids engaged and feeling excited about making progress. Those kids stay in the program, and Get involved in all of the benefits that Horses bring to Girls.

Along with finding a better instructor, it may be time to address your kids involvement in the sport. It may be worth doing what it takes to commit several months of more saddle time with good education to get her past this plateau. Then Reevaluate.

[trubandloki]

@darcilyna

She has been told by a more technical trainer at a trial lesson that “at this point in your riding you should not have to look for diagonals, you should just feel it.”.

Some people never learn to feel them.

If you can’t feel it, you learn to look without making it obvious that you are looking.

I personally am not a fan of instructors who expect every rider to be on the same timeline and say things like that. Now, if the instructor was saying that it your daughter is now advanced enough to learn to feel her diagonals, that is another way of saying the same thing without making it sound like your daughter is somehow failing at something.

[roseymare]

@S1969

My daughter’s first trainer refused to teach diagonals to young kids. She said that 95% of the time they will correct themselves to be on the correct diagonal, but as soon as you start teaching them to look down and fix it, they lose the trot and have to start again.

This is a very intriguing answer. I think I agree with it for the most part. Watching western/ranch/speed riders posting who don’t really concern themselves with diagonals most pick up the correct one. Maybe it’s luck. But this theory of not teaching it at first is a plausible one to me.

[Arlomine]

It’s because of the bend…I teach it by feel to some people also. But you have to do it on a horse that supple enough that actually has a little bit of a bend. You can feel it in your seat because the shoulder stays further forward on the outside of the circle and the inside shoulder compresses more backward.
Once you key into that on a circle, you can feel it on a straight path. I pretty much don’t worry about diagonal teaching until the rider is comfortable at walk and trot and two-point, steers well, can do sitting trot and posting trot.

If the kid struggles with figuring it out, I put it aside for a month and try again later. There are so many more things that are way more important. Finding harmony with the horse is a lot more important than making the kid get a head trip about their posting diagonal!

[findeight]

Playing trainer here, DD needs to ride more then once a week. Start there if DD is struggling to feel them. Not many sports are easy to master with 4 hours of practice a month and adding managing the horse to the basic skill set increases the difficulty.

DD would benefit by watching other lessons to really see how horse uses its body and what rider is doing. We all sometimes get so wrapped up in theory and frustration, we forget to just ride the dam horse. Observation really helps…and its free. Mom can learn alot too.

The right trainer for her is the one who has her coming to you saying “ I learned so much today”. Remember, you are looking for quality instruction from a service provider, not a BFF or marriage partner and you dont own a horse so you are free to search elsewhere. This sport is too expensive to waste time and money on a coach who admits they have no idea how to teach DD.

And ride and watch more.

[sascha]

@trubandloki

See my post further up thread. I know two very smart, very coordinated people who struggled with this. They both understood the concept so it was not the trainer failing them, it was their inability to figure out how to see what was going on and make their body do it. If told they were wrong they could bounce and change.

Yeah, no. I’m NOT judging people for having different learning styles. I’m judging teachers for not being flexible enough nor creative enough in their teaching to adapt to different students and commit to finding a solution for them.

It is such a fundamental skill that needs to be taught. It is NOT a student’s fault if they can’t figure it out. It is the teacher for giving up by either actually giving up, or repeating the same damn thing over and over even though it doesn’t work.

In regards to the two very smart, very coordinated people who struggled, understanding the concept is not enough. The teacher must find a way to connect the concept to the actual task - to build a bridge between the “book learning” and the practicality of the task. People learn in different ways. I’m a visual learner that struggled (when I was teaching) with students who were not visual learners. I struggled because it was my job to find a way to communicate effectively with them in order to pass onto them my knowledge.

[findeight]

Bingo, visual learning. Again, WATCH more, watch lessons, go to shows, LISTEN to the coach/instructors as you watch and learn to see what they are talking about. All you are out is time and it can really turn on the light of understanding.

[roseymare]

So in teaching all kinds of things I think the most difficult things to teach are the ones that came easy to you.

[sascha]

@roseymare

in teaching all kinds of things I think the most difficult things to teach are the ones that came easy to you

Absolutely! Also, the ones furthest away from being freshly learned.

My first teaching teacher said to us, “The easiest things to teach are ones you have learned most recently yourselves.” That bit of wisdom was invaluable in doing years of “up down” lessons. It made me actively think about how things looked, felt, sounded as I learned them, both the accomplishment itself and the mistakes along the way.

[findeight]

But wouldn’t you think somebody presenting themselves as a teacher of up down basics and collecting money for that could come up with something more positive then “I am struggling with getting your DD to understand diagonals” and offer ideas and direction instead of telling parent their child just doesn’t get it? Thats not helpful. At all.

Not to mention 13 is a very bad age for self worth issues.