I was wondering what does everyone look for to tell if a horse is lifting it’s back and is collected for dressage? I have a 4 year old mare who was showing morgan (they don’t seem to look for the lifted back much) So now I’m trying to train myself in my mares pictures and in person what to look for. She’s currently being ridden by my trainer so I can’t go off of feel. We are building her topline up so sometimes it’s hard for me to tell. Can anyone give me tips on what to look for?
I can only speak for proper connection and not collection, but look at the back directly behind the saddle. If the horse is truly working through it’s back and into the bridle, it is connected and using it’s back properly. If you see a dip or hollow spot there, it’s false and most likely being pulled into the frame so to speak.
Think of a bow and arrow. If you hold the bow as if you were going to shoot the arrow straight up into the air, when you pull the line down with arrow, the bow will bend and create a more round and arched shape. That’s what’s happening when a horse is using it’s hind end and back properly. Picture how, when the left side of the bow becomes lower (the hing legs) the middle part raises (the back and withers) and the right end lowers as a result of the middle side going up, (head and neck)
Everything in front of the shoulders is an after affect of what the rest of the body is doing. It is now way a means to get there. If you’re on the ground watching your horse being ridden, you want to see your horses hind legs stepping up well under his belly, his tail swinging gently back and forth, his back filling that spot behind the saddle, his neck coming up out of his withers like a swan and his head reaching forward and dangling like a happy Slinky.
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thanks! I wasn’t sure as my mare is starting to reach under her but her back to bum isn’t straight. She has a bit of a high hip so I thought that might be the problem but I just don’t think she’s on the bit.
Your trainer is doing a nice job. Her throat latch is open, she’s reaching into the bridle and her legs are working to some degree. It’s more a strength issue at this point in her training. Getting a Morgan to not fake it is very hard. They are very good an giving you that pretty head position while everything else goes out the back door. Your horse actually seems interested in the training process. I’d be very happy with that.
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Thank you! She seems to love being trained and same with showing. I’ve never seen a horse so happy to work. She’s about 6 months into Dressage training (she had a few months off with a lameness) and she’s 4 years old
And would you mind going to more detail with her legs are working to some degree? I’ve never heard that before and I’m trying to learn as much as possible
You might want to check out the blogs Sustainable Dressage and Hooves Blog and also Deb Bennett’s book on functional conformation. These will give you good illustrated information on horse biomechanics and how they use their body, better than we can explain here.
Your photos look good for the stage your mare is at. She is learning to use herself correctly. She will not be doing true collected work for a year or two
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Your mare is super cute, I love Morgans, they have such a cool brain and work ethic. They are game to try anything. Your horse looks good. Takes a good length of time to build strength and be able to carry themselves. Love the fact she is not behind the vertical.
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thanks! I have such a hard time trying to figure out what photos are best to post. I want to make sure I make my trainer and horse look good. I am learning lots thanks!
On the last of the three photos she looks really good. Her neck is relaxed, nose slightly in front of the vertical, and she is reaching through with her hind legs.
When a horse is moving like that, their back should be swinging, and their carrying ability being engaged and utlized.
At this point, collection should be in the future, and it will be the result of physical capability.
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A good way for a lay person to “see” collection is to watch the horse do collected things. When your trainer is schooling these movements like a leg yield which any baby horse can do you should see the following in stages.
An example is baby horse leg yield you look for obedience and some crossing of the legs. The more strength the horse has (headed to collection) the more reach the horse will have, by that I would mean the outside legs expand to gain more ground as well as crossing. A horse in full collection has reach, crossing, relaxation and can speed/slow down in the leg yield and more or or less, laterally, at riders discretion. I hesitate to write this last bit but… it should also look soft and easy to do. I hesitate because it doesn’t feel soft, but a good rider and horse starting self carriage of collection should start to create that illusion for observers.
Your trainer should be able to explain this process for any movement; canter/walk transitions, shoulder in, haunches in, medium trot, etc. There should be an expectation of these stages that hopefully she can articulate to you as observer and also how what she is feeling can be different from the illusion she creates from good riding.
OP - you should read some about the training pyramid. There are many things to establish prior to true collection and it takes time for the horse to develop the strength. Perhaps you could video your mare during a training session and have trainer go over it with you - point out where she is using her back, when it falls apart; you will see changes in rhythm, etc. Make notes so you can watch it several times. Then do it again periodically - you will be able then to see the changes and improvements. CUTE MARE.
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Leg Yield is not a collected movement. Depending on conformation, and strength , the cross-over does improve but you can leg yield forever without producing engagement. S/I. H/I, etc, are engaging exercises. It does, as it should, come before collecting exercises in the scheme of things. See below!
Lesson Topic: Leg-Yielding Definition The horse is almost ‘FEI Rule Book’ straight, except for a slight flexion at the poll away from the direction in which he moves, so that the rider is just able to see his eyebrow and nostril. The inside legs pass and cross in front of the outside legs. Leg-yielding should be included in the training of the horse before he is ready for collected work. Later, together with the more advanced movement, shoulder-in, it is the best means of making a horse supple, loose and unconstrained for the benefit of the freedom, elasticity and regularity of his gaits and the harmony, lightness, and ease of his movements. Leg-yielding can be performed “on the diagonal” (FEI) in which case the horse should be as close as possible to parallel to the long sides of the arena, although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. It can also be performed along the wall, in which case the horse should be at an angle of about 35 degrees to the direction in which the horse is moving (2012 USEF Rule DR111). In leg-yielding, the horse moves forward and sideways on two tracks away from the rider’s inside leg. Leg-yielding is performed in walk and trot. It is generally considered the easiest of the lateral movements and should be taught before shoulder-in, haunches-in and half-pass. However, some classical purists argue that leg-yielding should be called a twotrack movement, not a lateral movement, as it does not require bend.
@merrygoround I am very aware that leg yield isn’t a collected movement, however since her mare is only 4 years old. I wanted to pick something where she could immediately see her trainer doing something beyond w/t/c and perhaps see the changes her trainer would be making now as they work towards collection… asking her 4yr old and her trainer to demonstrate true collection would be a request to cause confusion for a lay person.
Regurgitating info from a book as you have done would not be helpful to the OP… providing something like visual aids to assess progress is helpful to the OP, which is what I have done.
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Thanks again everyone! Like I said I’m new to this true collection. I just want to make sure I’m posting the best photos to show my mares progress. I am a visual learner so if anyone has pictures for me to see what I would be looking for in my 4 year old that I should be posting feel free to share them please!
You have a long way to go to “this true collection.” To me, that’s the fun of dressage. I had a breed show background where the expectation was you just went with what natural gaits the horses had. Dressage is years of development of the horse’s body to make changes, and I think it’s wonderful to watch the changes over time. 
Is there a reason you’re sounding skeptical of your trainer while asking us this, or is it just internet interpretation? Because the pictures look good, and you SHOULD be asking questions to learn. However, I get the impression you’re both not asking these questions of your trainer and distrusting of your trainer. Hopefully you can get answers from your trainer and read and ask questions online to help get different ways of saying the same thing. Of course, on the internet you will also be told many things which are completely wrong, or which simply don’t apply to you. Trusting and getting advice from your trainer helps filter through that.
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I completely trust my trainer. She has done so much for us. This is all about me and learning as much as I can. It’s hard to ask my trainer to go through all my photos and explain which ones looks best etc. I’m use to the morgan world where they don’t focus on collection etc so I’m trying to retrain myself on what to look for. I’m just looking for tips so I can post the best pictures. And again I’m a visual learner so seeing what people see in my photos help a lot and same as asking someone to post photos so I can see the difference. It’s hard for my trainer to ride my horse and be on the ground pointing out everything. Again I totally trust my trainer just looking to improve what I see. I have tried searching the internet but sometimes it’s hard to find comparing pictures and also hard to find pictures of horses in my mares age and training level
Your mare looks like she is coming along nicely for her age. I think that there may be some confusion in the way you are using the term “true collection” from a dressage standpoint. As others have mentioned, there is a long path of development before you start to work on collection with a horse. As a 4 year old, the goal would be closer to the directives for Training Level / 1st level. Things like a clear rhythm with a steady tempo, and accepting contact with the bit, are the foundations for a dressage horse. At age 4—if your trainer is achieving that—you are on the right path.
Ideally, the progression of dressage training gradually teaches the horse to transfer it’s weight from being on the front end, to carrying more weight on their hind end (i.e. or using it’s hind end to carry itself, rather than pushing their weight from the hind legs onto their front end). However, most 4 year olds are really just learning to maintain their own balance with the added challenge of a riders weight! So, you should be pretty happy if your 4 year old is going forward nicely, seeking contact with the bit and being obedient to their rider.
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Thank you!!! I think sometimes I get mixed up with the terms. I’m mostly looking for her to start raising her back and building topline I don’t know if maybe “on the bit” is a better term? I’m not sure if in the pictures she’s raising her back but just isn’t straight across because of lack of muscle. She also seems to have a point to her hips again not sure if that comes with muscle so not sure if that sometimes gives the illusion of her not raising her back. Again totally new to this so bare with me if I’m using the wrong terms. She was walk/trot last year so I would love to aim for Training this year.
Don’t get hung up on “collection”. Your mare is only 4 and not ready for true collection. Look more at CONNECTION. Is there a nice bow…from her hocks to her mouth. Are her hind legs working and pushing her into the bit vs the rider pulling the nose in. The pictures look like she has a very nice connection for her age and stage of training. I second to look at the training scale. There are more basic things to attend to beforehand you worry about collection. She isn’t physically ready for that and could result in lameness (again) if you push it.
Enjoy the process…which is quite slow compared to rail/breed riding. Enjoy your mare.
Susan
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